Tiiki

You can actually set Proximo so that if you right click on someone, it casts a preset spell on them. So you can set right-click Blind up. I have this, but have never actually remembered to use it.

My Blind Focus macro is shift-wheelup though, so I can easliy spam it whilst keeping behind my target, hopefully

 

Avair

On the warrior/druid match up. There is a interesting interview on World of Ming here: The New and Improved Druid? from World of Ming | GAMERIOT

The interview with Serennia (who is playing moonkin/19/42 rogue) talks mostly about what the druids is doing. But the key point I want to pull out is what the rogue is doing with his poisons. I can sum it up like this:

Goal: To counter act the druid's abolish poison
1. Applying crippling main hand, and wound off hand.
2. Focus damage on warrior.
3. Use shiv as primary attack (avoids dodge/parry) and keeps wound stacked at 5.
4. Partner (moonkin) applies DPS pressure to rogues target.
Result: Druid healer is under pressure due to high damage and 50% healing reduction.

I have no idea how well this works, but its a interesting alternative tactic at least to deal with the 'mana' war. I suppose since warriors are easier to stay on than druids, the lack of guarnteed crippling is less of an issue, and having a big stack of wound is more important.

No idea if this would work with rogue/healer, as you might not have enough pressure with just shivs.

 

berzerked

Something that might be helpfull if you want to play with your tabbing options: PvP Source : Your #1 Source for Competitive World of Warcraft PvP

A mod called oTweaks, allows you really adjust the cone/circle tabbing area.

 

• LodeRunner

That would be my concern. Also you don't have the snare on demand with Crippling mainhand so the Druid would be more apt to escape in my estimation. "But wait, mainhand means he'll be applying it more with instant attacks!" you say. But then you realize the recommended course of action is to shiv your opponent to death. It just doesn't seem right.

 

Avair

In this case, the rogue was not trying to kill the druid. All damage was going to the warrior, who is probably either:

A) Trying to kill you (rogue) anyway, therefore 'keep target in melee' isn't an issue.
B) Trying to kill your partner, which means your partner can opt to stay still, so 'keep in melee range' isn't a problem again.

Further refinement: Weapon Swapping
This strategy might make good use of weapon swapping. If you get a 2nd offhand, you could keep crippling on that. Start out w/ a shiv cripple (to fix) then switch to shiv wound (to stack) and btw protect the crippling from dispell.

 

Tiiki

It just can't work with Healer/Rogue -- shivving isn't any much damage at all, especially on plate. A Druid could probably keep a Warrior up through full Wounding until OOM anyway. Your leather+perm MS is going to drain your healer way before the Warrior's druid is out...

This is akin to the Arcane Shot 'argument' I've heard in other threads. The Arcane Shot dispel is so 'annoying', say Mages et al, because it's part of their normal shot rotation anyway. Ditto MS vs Shivving Wounding. The 12 talents to get Wound to be still-not-as-good-as-MS thing is starting to annoy me

Hell, I think aimed shot is better than Wound Poison as it stands.

It's very frustrating in 5s- any good team with a Druid/Paladin can almost nullify my damage completely, since Muti needs poison even for DPS. Not to mention the double ele shaman/druid team we played yesterday (and lost to, repeatedly). Grrrr!

A nice fix for Muti PvE and PvP would be to have it do full damage all the time, and then do 10% extra with poisons on, or have another 'bonus' effect.

 

HLG

Hi, sorry for interrupting the current discussion, but there is something that is bugging me while I was reading through various forums including this one.

Now, I havnt been playing WoW for long so you guys may be able to help me understand this...

It's about the possible shs builds: 17/0/44 or 19/0/42 vs 0/20/41

For some reason, most people seem to prefer Ass/Shs builds over a Comb/Shs build. Why is that? I'd think with the added damage from DW spec and the added mobility from Imp. Sprint that Comb/Shs would be a way more viable build then any Ass/Shs variation.

The only advantage I see of Ass/Shs is a when doing finishers, you generate 1 CP and 25 energy which doesnt seem all that significant compared to an additional rootbreaker in Imp. Sprint.

I don't know why people think that 0/20/41 won't be viable...on the official WoW forums, when someone suggests this build they get the reply: "Have fun in the 1300s". It looks to me, however, that this build offers incredible mobility and massive hemo damage.

So is 17/0/44 really superior to 0/20/41? And do you guys think that Shs builds will be viable at all in 2.3.2?

 

Ozzmar

Don't underestimate Relentless Strikes. Not having it basically forces you to auto-attack your target for 2-4 seconds after a finisher before you can even apply another Hemo, or do anything else.

Yes, Improved Sprint is nice, but it's not the be all and end all of Arena. Cloak of Shadows can break snares. Trinkets can break snares. Dispelling can break snares. Situationally they may not be as desirable as Imp Sprint, but that's life with talent points.

 

Thievery

Question to any high rated arena rogues that have tested the new patch specs on PTR? Is it possible to 2v2 with a healer successfully as subtlety?
Also, SoH reduces critical hits and HS reduces hits in general. Does SoH 'stack' upon HS? Edit: Ill elaborate a bit more, if HS 'procs' is the benefit of SoH reduced? ie: an attack is missed b/c of HS, is the 2% of SoH in that miss? or is it not effected?

Is either worth getting or one over the other or neither?

Thanks for the input.

 

berzerked

Well, the DW spec part is nice, but everything else is just meh. Imp Sprint? for an ShS build.. thats kind of the point of ShS.. every 30sec you can jump to your target. and the +hit can be nullified with s3 gear + 1 or 2 hit gems (at least for special attacks).

+Crit Dmg +Crit +murder +relentless are all very nice, and seem to outweight DW. I'm not saying combat/shs is bad, and it might end up being VERY nice if you consider the ap you are going to have with SinsertCalling + deadliness, so white dmg might be very very nice.

Edit: I think ShS build suffer the least w/o imp sprint.

 

Tinkerfizzle

As (combat) Rogue+Resto Druid, we use a method similar to this against Warrior/Druid, which I detailed in a post in the 2v2 Arena Thread here(I use deadly poison in place of crippling for the mainhand, though): 2v2 Arena Thread

I can guarantee that it's a completely effective and viable way to win just about every game against Warrior+Healer(esp. Druid) teams if things go right - if you'd like to see this strategy in action I have a short video against Warrior/Druid here: 12-28.avi - FileFront.com

 

Tiiki

Nice choice of music-

I still don't understand how it works though. If their Warrior had just stuck on you 100% of the time, how would their Druid not have comfortably won the mana war. You have to spend a LOT of time shivving to keep the poison on, whilst he can just all out DPS you without any rage limit, and he's in Plate.

Why did he keep trying for your Druid? Makes no sense to me.

 

Tinkerfizzle

About the mana-fight, you'd have to ask my druid teammate for the details on how that usually goes - but any time the Warrior is on me the full match, there's usually a point where my healer gets the odd chance to drink to 100% mana while the Warrior's generally only would get about 5 to 10 seconds here and there before he would have to get back to heal. Usually the easiest matches are when the warrior sticks on me the entire game.

I do agree with you, logically these teams shouldn't win, but I'm supposing that a good chain of (unresisted!) kidney shots and mace stuns combined with a very high melee dodge+parry rate, it's generally enough to tide us over and generally put my healer quite far ahead on mana.

As for shivving a lot(when applicable), it might look kind of silly but I really think it's something that doesn't hurt too terribly against a team like that. In the video I rely very much on keeping him snared a bit with deadly throw, so balancing that with getting kidney shot up every time I can, along with slice and dice, makes individual combo points a lot more valuable against these teams than most due to the poison setup. Shiv is definitely less DPS for sure when compared to Sinister Strike, but I think when spare combo points or Blade Twisting procs are needed, it's a nice attack to have - ie, Warrior intercepts my partner, I have zero combo points - 4-5 shivs will get me that KS to peel him off much quicker than using SS - also counting that the shiv can't be parried or dodged!

 

Avair

Tinker,

The video looks really good. I may have to give this a try. A couple of questions.
1. What unit frames are you using? I notice that your poisons/daze effect are pronounced, making it easier to see how high they are.
2. Do you start w/ wound/cripple (for most matchups) then switch if you know you face druid/warrior? Or do you have multiple sets of weapons and swap?
3. I noticed your action bar seems to swap between attacks (SS/Shiv) and finishers? What's the logic on that and is that part of your UI frames?
4. What is the large yellow bar across the top of your actionbars tracking?

 

Tinkerfizzle

I think the self-debuff function is a component of Xperl, though I'm not sure.

As for poisons I generally just have wounding mainhand/crippling mainhand and if we see a Warrior team, we move to an out-of-the-way spot to put poisons on.

If you find that teams are charging you and leaving you little time to put a different set of poisons on, you could put deadly poison in your mainhand and crippling in your offhand, so when the gates open all you need to do is put Wounding on the offhand for a Warrior team, or on the mainhand for anything else. I do use a weapon-swap for mind numbing poison for a few teams, but it's really minor.

As for action bar swapping, I just use shift+1/2/3/4/5 to go between my bars - ie, shift+1 for bar 1 - has all basic non-cooldown moves and one finisher, bar 4 has offensive cooldowns, bar 5 has shiv and deadly throw, etc

The yellow bar is Slicewatch, for my slice and dice timer - it's a really helpful addon for focusing ui information into a central spot.

 

Tiiki

use DebuffFilter for seeing number of poisons, amongst other things, it's invaluable, nay essential!

And your comments on deadly throw are interesting... With its new reduced minimum range and hamstringesque unremoveability... Maybe crippling isn't quite so essential.

 

Almehym

What I'm afraid of is since Arete here uses a lot of PvE gear in his arenas, is that those of us whose best PvP gear is PvP gear won't have enough AP/Crit to sustain fighting in that manner. Not only would his shivs hit harder, all the white damage he does would be amplified by that much as well. One can just hope that the added cushion of resilience in PvP gear makes up for all that.

I also worry that since I'm trying to save up for an eventual 1850 mainhand and therefore am stuck using a s2 dagger as my OH even though I go mace spec when I do arenas that a strategy heavy on shivs wouldn't be quite as useful to me, since it 1. does less damage anyway and 2. will never proc OH mace stuns.

I haven't done any PTR testing, but does anyone think that Shs (post 2.3.2), either the assassination or combat variant, would have enough damage in a rogue/healer setup to kill a druid fast enough to make druid-chasing a viable strategy? And even if that's so, would ShS rogue + healer be nonviable for too many other matchups, such as a mirror rogue/healer, rogue/mage, warrior/shaman (where they don't tend to kite quite so much), or others?

I have no experience in high-end arena, so please let me know if this is the case, but with deadliness+sinister calling+ not being able to be kited almost at all, Shs seems to have only a couple weaknessess (namely, poor energy regen/cp generation, esp. with a combat version, and no burst-on-demand). It does seem to be decently strong in the general dmg category, though.

 

redux80

Quick question for everyone here, I haven't been able to track down any information related to the subject in this thread, but what's the general consensus on OH enchants right now? Is weapon chain still the standard or are more rogues making a move towards Goose on the OH?

 

Tiiki

I just use Goose because I'm lazy and need all the DPS I can get. It is annoying taking a full 10s disarm but hey, I've lived with it so far.

 

Hildegard

Mongoose vs. Weapon Chain
By endseason I will use different off hands with different poisons and enchants. Offhands are quite cheap to buy, so once the ratings really matter switching the offhand can be quite good. Until I have everything else upgraded I will stick with dual Mongoose.
But: When sticking with the shiv-strategy the mainhand isn't that important anymore. I just let the energy regenerate and reapply abolished wound poisons. Once 2.3.2 hits far less rogues will have riposte and against warriors I like the shiv strategy.

Restokin/rogue
While still having a terrible rating after coming back from holidays we started to play with this style. First three matches were lost due to me not having played for some time. Then we started to adjust and in this lower ratings it was insanely strong. Warrior/druid and warlock/druid were really easy. Rogue/hunter/ferals that are fast on the druid are a threat. But to see druid/warlock boht oom was just hilarious. It feels so much stronger than with the old healing spec on my druid partner.

Two questions:
1. Do poisons crit, when the Moonkin aura is active ?
2. Does the mongoose buff continue even if one is disarmed ?

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

• LodeRunner

1. Yes
2. You mean if the Lightning Speed buff is applied and you become disarmed you are concerned the buff will disappear once disarmed? 99% sure the answer is you will not lose the buff. You may lose the ability to proc the buff while disarmed, but it's not going to dispell the effect.

 

Hildegard

I am in the same boat, but the average people writing here have access to all PVE gear available. Many specs are quite useless without PVE gear. Mutilate without the ashtongue trinket, Deep Sublety without tons of agility and AP, combat with enough Hit/AP.

The question is what to spec without access to PVE gear.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

• LodeRunner

Combat? Oh, the irony.

edit- Wait, Ashtongue trinket for Mutilate? I thought everyone used Renataki's.

 

Hildegard

I think it depends on the bracket, but most of the time 7% more crit with mutilate is really strong.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

Tower

I'd kill for an Ashtongue, and I do have a Renataki's. The 40 energy can change how you play for an offensive opening, but all that crit rating is worth a lot more in arena.

Many of the most "well-known" PvP rogues hardly do any PvE from my count, but all those rogues do have Renataki because it was awesome and fairly easy to get.

Also, I'd say mutilate performs best with "mediocre" gear and heavy combat mace builds perform best with access to full pvp gear.