I haven't looked yet, but if you're right, then yes, it's definitely bad. Despite the implications, I think it was generally thought of as favourable that you got the CP.

With deadly throw's vastly reduced minimum range (as per Hunters), it's actually a pretty damn effective non-cleansable physical snare, so the ability to step/throw was actually pretty huge.

EDIT: of course, stuff is often left out of the patch notes by accident, so it may well still be in.

Though, of course, as you say, no one will really be speccing ShS as of 2.3.2 anyway. I hope they do fix backstab to make a viable ShS build in 2.4 though, now I've taken the S3 Shanker I don't want viable Mace builds to come back :P

[Clique mode: When do I get on your 3v3, Emth? ]

I ran lovingly as the 0/31/30 build as well.. no idea what to take after it since every other spec seems to mimic parts of the overall advantages of 0/31/30 but nothing offering full package.

So far I'm stuck on a 31/0/30 hybrid dagger build of some sort, probably with a heavier poison investment but light enough to pick up DD from Sub. I my experience of pvp, backstab and mutilate under some common conditions operate neck and neck due to the fact it's similar damage, trading the extra CP for no poison requirement, and *potential* burst at 35% is fairly impressive with DD and positional attacks.. the problem of course falls back to critting in order to get the job done (with imp bs, gear, and ashtounge I'm sitting around 66%). But the loss of imp sprint is pretty huge, and trying to replace it with vanish+sprint for the same effect just blows.

I have a quick question on trinkets. I've seen a smattering of discussions on some through-out this thread but I was wondering if anyone had any specific input on the ones I currently have available.

I am working on getting Renataki's, but right now I have avail: WSC, DST, BloodLust brooch and the upgraded Insignia.

I am guessing the insignia is a given to always have slotted, but I'm not sure about the second slot. Each trinket has a very attractive bonus in my eyes... Any input would be very helpful.

Only one is on-use, Bloodlust, so I'd always go for that one.

Depends on your playstyle. Maybe if you're playing drain, then DST is probably better since it's definitely more sustained damage and better poison appliaction.

As Mutilate though (if you're going for Renataki I assume you are?), something to pop just before a CB combo is always good...

I am mutilate, sorry I should have included that already.

My team is a disc/holy priest and a demo/aff lock. My job is to (aside from stay alive) lock up the other teams DPS, and force their healer to react (we're pretty new to arena still, but learning) while my teamates do their drain thing.

I haven't actually bought the bloodlust yet, I have the badges for it but I am on the fence if it is actually worth it at this point, since I've had good success with the DST so far.

In your opinion is it still worth my while to purchase the BB? Will it be a small or rather noticable upgrade during fights?

I'd put the Brooch on top of DST for mutilate in pvp, but since you already have the DST and haven't bought the Brooch I'd just stick with it. If you do ZA, replacing it with a Berserker's Call would definitely be something to shoot for.

Big mutilates win fights when you've got their team on the run or in CC trouble.

Right, agree totally on Warriors. As previously mentioned, we like blowing up mages. The only time we've had trouble was against one who was very good at kiting across a frost trap. And we still won a few. But I also feel frost trap is a bit broken - why does imp sprint NOR cloak have any effect? Every time BoF is down, I'm trapped.

I guess you need a 5x/x/x spec to change target and get poisons up in time? We usually try to avoid changing target because of Wound stacks. If you didn't know, I'm 2346 with me instead of a Warrior, so we have quite a lot of offensive dispel power for when they pop BoP+Pain Suppression. I think me totally changing target at that point is worse than just waiting for the purges? I wonder what you think.

I am tempted to try a 5x spec, but the lower shiv damage, lack of imp sprint, etc., still concerns me. Will I notice a big difference in poisons if I try it out tomorrow? Does my lack of T6/Ashtongue/blah matter when considering spec here?

Your spec totally confused me now I've just looked too: 3% dodge instead of Imp Gouge? I really think Imp Gouge is an incredibly worth it amount of extra control? I love it, anyway. Equally, Dirty Tricks, REALLY? Is it the energy on Blind or the extra range Sap that you think makes it worthwhile?

Also a bit suprised by the Imp eviscerate - surely Murder > that, every time?

I still feel like 41/20 except with 4/5 Vile and 1/2 MP might be my best choice. I'm actually convinced Imp EA isn't worth it now, since I will be reducing most clothies to 0-200 armor with EA + passive. Remember you have -500 odd from Faerie Fire too- which your druid should definitely try to keep up. That you have another physical dpser (and I don't) may make imp EA more worth it for you though. I would definitely try to maximise its uptime since it's a significant boost for your hunter too.

Is going Imp EA worth it to anyone if you only have to put 4 combo points on the target to achieve total armor negation? Granted when Mutilate it's impossible to gauge if you'll end up with 4 or 5 combo points, but if you got a Ruthlessness point and Mutilate crit you've got 4.

I find imp EA worth it, but then I tend to have a bursty playstyle. I run 41/20/0 in 3's and we sorta play the wear down game on the other team until an opportunity presents itself. I keep EA and SnD up as much as possible to keep pressure on my target, and when they hit around 40% life I do a kidney shot renataki combo and slaughter them in 2 seconds.

If you're going the burst route it's definitely worth picking up - with the additional damage I have taken people 100-0 in one kidney shot and won games that would have otherwise been losses.

Edit: I may be a bit biased since I tend to throw EA on anything with arms warrior level armor or below - it definitely makes a difference on rogues and druids (assuming you can catch them in travel/cat/human form), and to a lesser extent hunters. As mentioned earlier, you don't see the gains from the talent so much on cloth.


@ Grunge - I'm curious how you feel about Renataki vs. Ashtongue. My deathsworn rep is getting close to exalted and I'm going to have to make the call pretty soon. I ran some numbers and with it up I'd have more than 30% crit against 400 resil targets - and it's always there, unlike renataki (you use it and you don't kill your target, it's a wasted slot).

I currently 2v2 with another rogue who is a raider with decent gear, and is sword combat build. Lately we're having problems with my build keeping the targets CC'd and we're looking for me to gain some decent DPS whilst keeping some elements of CC in the fight. I've been Shs since the i started the current char as i find it alot of fun to play, but obviously when we need the dps within a fight coming from both of us, it's just not happening. On a clean fight, my partner can out dps me by nearly twice as much and due to me only having prep as an increased CC, it looks like a change is due for me.

I realise that the mace build is favoured amongst a few of the rogue community, so i worked out a build which i think is workable, any tips on this are appreciated:

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Rogue -> Talent Calculator

S1 will be the way forward for now as the honour points are easily obtainable and given my arena rating at present, anything top end is just not doable in the near future

On another note, my gear does need improving, S1 legs in the next few days and S3 chest when i get the points for it, but is it worth trying to stay with Shs as a dagger spec and wait for the next patch to increase CC/dps abilities more or change in the mean time and possible return later? ( more a thought to myself i guess )

I don't raid on this character, i purely PvP and hit 70 approx 6 weeks ago

thx in advance

We do tend to blow up mages (against some setups) as well, but when it's a question between a warlock or a mage then a warlock is much easier to lock down (at least for me) than a mage.
I agree on the frost trap being broken.

Well it's really situational for us. If we're nuking someone down and fail due to bop/PS then if there's a suitable target close by I call a swap and we nuke it. It surprises their healers and often they don't react fast enough with the heal-swap to our new target and we kill it.

While I do notice the lack of Imp Sprint sometimes it just takes getting used to, as for poison application, I'd say no, mainly because you lose Precision the poison application remains roughly the same. Going 5x does allow you to pick up almost everything from Assassination. Gear could be an issue as well, since I run with 120-144hit rating when using 5x (which compensates for lack of precision a lot).

I rarely use Gouge in 5's so I haven't picked it up for a long time, I could use 2 out of 3 points in Assassination possibly to get Murder, extra dodge helps against warriors/rogues/hunters(in melee) though. Dirty Tricks is very nice for 2 talent points (Since I'm already can't get into Combat 10+ (Ie no Imp Sprint to spend those 2 points on) the extra range on blind is my main reason, but I often blow sprint early to get a sap on the other teams healer/dps.
I often have extra cp's that I can blow on Eviscerate, the extra damage there helps.


I agree I often find myself using 4cp EA's so it's probably worth it either way.

I'd say it's a matter of personal taste. I've talked with Xom and he said that if he could he'd take WSC or Ashtongue over Renataki, but I've had games where renataki made the win. I've also had games where I tried Ashtongue and Renataki would've won a otherwise lost game for me. So for me the extra burst damage from Renataki is worth much much more than anything else.
I might try playing with Ashtongue again at some point in 5's, but in 3's and 2's the extra burst is game-winning.

I threw some ideas around, and well the main reason why to go 5x is Imp Kidney. So to get that we need a minimum of 43 in Assassination. Which means that we can't get Full DW spec anyway and thus we opt to not waste points in combat resulting in 5x.
Then I played around with the Calculator a bit and came up with this: Example Now. Would it be better to go 43/18 and grab Imp SnD+3 points of DW spec or Go 4x/12/x and spend that extra point somewhere in Assassination (Ie. I'd drop murder and get Imp Eviscerate resulting in: this.
It gives up Imp Poisons and Master Poisoner for Precision and Imp Sprint. 5 points in Precision are a bit wasteful though.)

It's general consensus that DW Spec > Opportunity but what about 3/5 DW Spec+Imp Snd (2/)3 vs Opportunity or some other combination. Remember that DW also helps with shiv damage and overall white damage.

I guess I'll just have to experiment.

I don't think anyone has given too much glory to Imp Poisons for a Mutilate build, your apply rate is high as it is, Imp Kidney has more synergy with how the spec is played (locking down a target for a brutal Kidney > Mut > Mut > Evis)

I'd put it more like.

Vile > 1/2 Master Poisoner > Imp KS > 2/2 Master Poisoner > Imp Poisons.

Going that deep in Sub for Serrated Blades isn't my cup of tea, but you really can't ignore Elusiveness if you're spending that many points there. Why not drop down to 4/5 Vile and 1/2 Master Poisoner (I could be wrong, but the -5% resist is mostly all you need) and pick up a devastating 1.5m Blind? Best thing about Mutilate is you can push out a win better than any other spec with that second blind, save for maybe that second AR use that HARP used to have.

Ignore my ratings this season... haven't been doing anything competitive save for slapping a team together in the last month for Monday points ;/

I like Tower's analysis.

I'm only 41 Assass and I still take Imp KS- it fits the spec and my Renataki, and it's a force multiplier. In 5v5 it's much better than 2v2, since it affect's my Shaman's EM-NS combo and Lock's bolts.

I'm currently 3/5 Vile and I have no problem keeping poisons on outside of 5s. Only at a 5s level is there enough spare capacity around to really spam cleanse/abolish the assist target. Since my main bracket is 5s I should probably tweak my spec but still can't make my mind up about dropping EA!

41/0/20 with 4/5 Vile, Elusiveness and Serrated is very tempting I must admit. I would have to gem some extra hit in too.

This thread has some interesting *proper* Mutilate dps numbers. Unfortunately they are for a raid buffed situation only:

[Rogue] Mutilate Raid DPS Discussion

But they do show the power of DW spec (over say Oppo + Serrated)...
(Then again, he was chugging haste every CD and similar - massively brings up the benefit of DW spec, precision, imp SnD and other white damage talents, so actually who knows, still?)

Lastly a question I also admit I've asked many times but still aren't sure about (nor had a good answer): what gemming for PvP mutilate?

I think you still gem as offensively as you would with HARP, you don't get 10% ap, but you do get +20% incoming healing which is plenty when coupled with s3 gear and Vindicator's gear - allowing you to avoid 6sta 4agi red gems and defensive yellow gems.

16/20ap for red, then the heroic 10ap/4hit gem for a yellow slot. Then depending if you're combat mutilate or sub mutilate, gem either 10ap/5crit or 5hit/5agi.

If you can't make up your mind, it's a pretty safe bet to drop 2 out of seal fate. I couldn't and that's exactly what I did. Combo points have never been what make or break a fight for me, and 60% is still more often than not.

/shrug

Here is the 41/20 build I go with.

Oh I definitely gem full offense. But PvE Mutilate is all about crit, so I was wondering whether it was crit or AP. My AP does feel quite low, even gemmed for it, so I might indeed stay the same.

Incoming derail:
Now for another problem- I may take this to a broader thread but for the moment: My excellently geared 5v5 of really nice people..... just isn't reliable enough. Myself and our Ele Shaman are ALWAYS around at the arranged times (Sundays and Wednesday evenings) but other folks are often (getting on for 75% of the time) late, and today we had a complete no show from two people who 'forgot' !

Myself and the Ele Shaman are considering changing server (we're already the best 5v5 on our provincial PvP-RP server so there's nowhere else to go here). I only PvP now so it's pretty important for me and missing points this week (someone is on holiday this Sunday) is very frustrating.

The question is: what's the best route to find 3 other people to hook up with 2 x pretty much perfectly geared and reliable arena-ers (Ele Shaman/Muti Rogue). I don't claim to be awesome, but I know what I'm doing and would like to put in more practise than we do. The thought of randomly picking a big PvP server and then trying to find 3 decent (well geared, smart, talk on vent) guys feels like a huuge challenge when you've never changed server before.

Has anyone moved and built an Arena team from scratch? How should I/we go about it? Is there a way to use EJ to help (outside this thread?)?

Thanks folks.

Yes it's so much more fun than 41-20, because you don't get charged through half the arena, are fast as hell while stealthed. It's a spec that is just lovely and I don't really miss improved sprint.

But! You lose three tangible benefits - Imp SnD / Imp Gouge / Imp Sprint (not to mention DW/Pre > Opp/Serr) replaced with some stealth talents - MoD/Camo/Imp Sap. You don't even take 90 sec Blind... (41/0/20 I can see some arguments for...).

It may be 'nice' to have awesome stealth, but you are SO rarely in stealth in any arena match outside the first 30 seconds....

It is weaker than 41-20 in many situations, especially on long matches. But it's way more fun to play. Few rogues have MoD anymore which is a huge advantage then. With 41-20 I got sapped so often by not only human rogues it was annoying as hell. Even without Humans or warlocks in the opposing team it's just plain annoying. And with Renataki (I don't have PVE gear better than some of Zul'Aman or T5 stuff) the burst is really, really strong. Our rating is way to weak to say whether it's viable when fighting strong teams, but on the way up there I enjoy it.#

Edit:
I think it is specially strong against PVE heavy opponents. While I maintain 357 resilience and have a very decent burst, which is way stronger than the 41-20 one with Ashtongue, and I will very often have the first hit, what hurts PVE teams more than the standart PVP geared ones. And as every rogue and his mother now seems to play with 4 pieces of T6 I maybe have a good counter to that.

Imp. SnD doesn't add much, I barely ever use Imp. Gouge and I've started to live without Imp. Sprint also (it's not that big thing as people make up). You could take few points from Assassination for Elusiveness but I haven't seen it necessary.

Based purely on the number of high rated teams I'd pick neptulon or twisting nether if you want to stay in your current battlegroup, otherwise al'akir and stormscale are good choices but also very over crowded.

I'd rather transfer to an overcrowded server than anything. I'll wait in queues if it means I can pick from different top players of every class. Blackhand is one of the top PvE servers in regards to PvE progression, but there's fuck all for PvP warriors and like 1 good PvP druid, Horde side.

I've never seen this answered before, maybe not the right place but what's the best PvE server to transfer to to be in BG9?