Vestalina

One must try ShS / Maces, Fists, Swords before one will know it's true power! Seriously, it's a great spec and offers a ton of DPS. Amazing for dueling, BG's, and if you're team make-up is favorable... then even arena. The best part about the spec is that it is actually really fun to play. Definitely test it out.

 

• LodeRunner

I think everyone knew it was really fun to play. The big fear was zero burst on demand and no weapon specialization. What I'm hearing, however, is that the sustained damage is actually pretty good. What I fear is that it's coming from people with lots of PvE gear mixed in.

I've been trying Mutilate recently and, while the potential burst is pretty fun, I find myself really missing the blind and sap range as well as getting openers on warlocks.

 

Cos-

I always hated 41/20/0 because it was so awful for getting openers. 49/0/12 is a lot more fun and capable in that regard.

 

Quellcrist

On the topic of "Warriors to very naughty things to rogues"...

My other two teamates and I are testing the theory on CC+Starve, and we've had moderate success with it with warriors.

Our warlock does what he can to fear/kite the warrior, and we try to leave him until last. 0 Damage on the warrior makes it tougher for rage, which means I generally get to live long enough to work down one, hopefully two of them. Otherwise a warrior with full rage will take me out in 2-3 swings.

Has anyone else tried this?

 

Tower

Played about 25 games as 20/0/41 in arena over the weekend with my new RMP team, my Shadow Priest from seasons 1 and 2 got frustrated over being consistently gimped and rolled Disc, and we picked up our Gladiator Frost Mage friend.

I think the only way ShS works is with a druid/war/rogue or RMP team, you need someone on your team with more on demand burst or in the case of a warrior, someone with a much better -healing debuff that can instantly be put up on a target swap.

Most of the games were in the 1850 range, think we started at like 1750 (was a random trash team going unused). Got up to 1950, then lost to 6 teams in a row before quitting. I just honestly don't see how Blizzard envisions us using this spec to be stronger than a warrior with a 15s intercept. Shadowstep to Kick? Intercept > 2s stun > pummel (if necessary) is just SO SO SO Much stronger. The only time I felt the strength of the spec was against other non-shadowstep rogues, figuring out their spec and focusing them until their cooldowns were used, then going on their healer. This, of course, does not work on any good warrior team, who has power thoughout a whole match. Druid/War/Warlock just dominates RMP when the rogue is Shadowstep as their team is designed to close burst opportunities, losing any mace control and AR means your mage has to weather a warlock for even longer than before.

I consistently outdamaged our mage in every game, but then I'm not offering any decurse or defensive CC. We would've won a lot more had my Priest friend not been so heal rusty, so we clearly have a lot of work ahead of us - still doesn't feel as strong as gimped AR/prep.

We've all heard this before, I know I'm not as good as rogues like Neilyo, but execution with the spec needs to be 100% coordinated with your teammates, which is depressing when looking at other class makeups (ie war/druid+) that favor scrub play. Watched my Priest get killed in about 10s as a warrior/druid/enhance shaman ate him as we tried to focus and CC.

I just don't get what Blizzard wants the rogue community to do in PvP, huge nerfs like the last patch then radio silence on the class is just frustration. I'm hoping for at least 1 positive changed amidst the 2.4 notes.

 

Vestalina

There is some burst, not big bursts unless you white chain crit on top of your Hemo crits (which happens very often). Seeing tons of white crits in a row with a few hemo crits is a ton of damage in mere seconds. Sinister calling definitely helps for more crit (I think I'm sitting at 30+ unbuffed crit atm with like one piece of PVE gear).

Oh right, I forgot to mention that this spec owns frost mages real hard.

Premed -> Garrote -> Evis -> (Mash as many hemos as you can before the Mage blinks) -> Deadly Throw -> Vanish -> ShS Cheapshot -> Mash Hemo Unloading your bar -> KS -> yada yada yada

(And you have a PVP trink, blind, and prep still up if you need it... the mage should be close to dead if not dead by then).

The ability to stay on your target is really really really underated. The fact ShS is on Preparation is underated and never talked about either. An underated build as a whole.

I recently started a new 3v3 team (Warrior/Druid/Rogue). We went 19-0 and got into the 1800 bracket before we experienced our first loss. Being the first time me and my druid partner have ever played with this warrior, we were trying our best to work our the kinks but ended up losing a few matches due to unfavorable match-ups that we didn't know how to deal with at the time.

Pal/Sham/War is still somewhat of a hard team, along with any triple DPS team with a Shadowpriest. PMR is a joke along with pretty much any team with a warlock. I am currently spec'd ShS/Maces with one piece of PVE gear and I can honestly say that I can play my role on the team very well being Shadowstep. Nothing can really get away from me except a very very well-played Druid.

If you run a PMR team, ShS/Maces is great if your strategy is to have your rogue pressure the opposing team's mage. If played correctly, ShS/Maces is a great anti-mage spec. It is a great 1v1 Spec and makes warriors angry because they can't put enough distance between themselves and you to charge you (you just ShS as soon as you see them start to move away to charge you and shiv crip).

If I could get new weapons I would get the fist weapons because this spec makes getting maces obsolete.
Fist weapons look sweet and looking good is half the battle.

 

• LodeRunner

I'm going to assume you're Shadowstep/Assassination, even though you kept saying Shadowstep/Maces since weapon type has absolutely no effect on a Shadowstep build.

 

Vestalina

Actually either of the builds is fine.

ShS/Combat offers:
-IMP SND
-IMP Sprint
-Precision
-DW Spec
-Gouge/Dodge (Whatever you want)
-Very good sustained

ShS/Assass offers:
-Good CP Generation
-Bigger crits
-+Crit
-IMP Evis

I prefer ShS/Assass because it offers a slightly more burst and lots of CP's for me to work with.
ShS/Combat lacks the CP generation I'm looking for but hits like a truck and has sick sustained damage (Keep SND up).

It's mostly preference and what works better with your team set-up.


Edit: The reason I say "ShS/Maces" is because of something called "ShS/Daggers"... a very common build. Whether you use a dagger or fist/sword/mace in a ShS build still matters enough for me to differentiate between the two builds. Maybe I should have said ShS/Maces,fists,swords to clarify. My bad.

 

Almehym

You don't have to say Shs/Maces-Fists-Swords. You can just say Shs/Hemo. If rogues are looking at these boards and hemo-ing with daggers they're doing something sorely wrong.

I'm going to try out the new Shs in the next couple days for a new 3s team I'm hoping to get together, and if it's strong enough I may take it into my 2s with my Resto druid partner. I'm kinda sick of full combat maces, and I don't have nearly the kind of PvE gear to support tanking a warrior (8/10 losses this week were to warrior druid teams). Shs, I think, will help me rip up a druid fast enough to make it possible to beat those teams. The only thing I worry about is whether or not it gimps me for other matchups that we are very strong against with me as full combat, such as warrior/pally, warrior/shaman, and some 2dps teams where some good ol' AR burst is very nice to have to keep either me or my healer from dying so quickly (it gets them on the defensive and gives us the long-term advantage).

 

Mackabre

I've been working on our PRM team since 2.3.2. I am absolutely loving it. There are games where I knew if I were still HARP or Combat/maces that I'd lose just based on all my CD's being down and being gimp and can't stay on target. We went from about 2020 to 2150 in a day as this spec. We beat the 7th rated team, them being a priest/warr/druid and we regularly beat warlock/druid/rogues as we went up. People say the sustained isn't that great, but I think it's working fine. I really enjoy being able to switch targets real fast and start off strong with the 20% more dmg on next attack. Almost always I start off the battle with pre-med, CS, Trinket, rupture, Get 2 cp's, SnD and just go from there.
We do coordinate pretty well in CC's and that may be a major factor into the ShS spec.

 

ModusTollens

I am still working on getting a decent pvp gear set in battlegrounds before moving on to serious arena play, but im wondering why you don't start off with EA before your rupture?

Usually I hang back in stealth for a clothie to target, then Premed -> CS -> EA > 1pt SnD then Hemo the rest of the way. I find EA on warriors to be especially useful.

Thoughts? I am ShS/hemo with dragonstrike.

Edit: To clarify, EA in addition to the hemo debuff AND sinister calling helps out the ShS dps quite a bit.

 

Jogue

Greetings, I have been keeping track of this thread ever since I started arenaing to find out tricks i could use to increase my chance of winning.

With the recent nerf of HARP and the larger presence of resto druids teams, I took the advice of some posters and went for full poison talents. This has greatly increased my chances of winning and I can stick on a hunter and run him and his druid oom even with my druid suffering from some viper stings and the inability to drink due to the hunter's scorpid on him.

Since i am a Gnome, I find myself able to stick onto my target most of the time to keep a 5stack wound poison, this question my investment in 5/5 improved poisons and I have editted my spec to move the points into subtlely instead. Should I spec http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhgbRVMoboZZxMjoMGRoeo or do 2/3 enveloping shadows and 3/3 cheat death instead?

 

Deegan

I've been tinkering with some Mutilate builds, but I haven't been very happy with 41/20 or 4x/0/1x. My problem with the former is the lack of Dirty Deeds for some extra CC range, and with the latter I feel very constricted without Imp. Sprint. Is a hybrid viable at all? Something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft for example. It misses out on DWS; I know Opportunity isn't an ideal replacement, but it's better than nothing. I get to keep Imp Gouge and Imp Sprint, and having Precision is nice to have around tho not entirely required for Mutilate.

So, my question is this: is this hybrid build worth exploring, or am I missing out on too much by not going a little deeper in either Sub or Combat? Do I just need to practice more to get over my problems with one of the builds, or are those legit concerns and not just idle "comfort" complaints?

 

Tiiki

Be more patient! With openers, locks still can't see you from behind, even with paranoia. I usually wait off the side behind a pillar, call my team to engage first then run out behind the other team. Just don't run towards their faces and you'll be find. Roguing 101, surely?

I miss the sap/blind range, sure, but not 'enough', I think. I have 2 x S3 daggers and 2 x S2 maces, so I'm considering trying 20/0/41 for 3v3 and back to 41/20 for 5v5.

I'll probably have something like 36% base crit with Sinister Calling and decent AP too...

 

Tiiki

That's Neilyo's preferred Mutilate spec. And it's very nice. You lose imp SnD (not a HUGE deal) and gain (a *little*) extra muti burst + CC range, as well as the same good poison application as 41/20.

The only weaknesses are:
- notably less sustained damage due to the white damage hit
- considerably less damaging shivs

I think it's definitely worth trying though.

Personally I still think DW spec is more significant over the match than the CC range (and Oppo is strictly inferior to DW spec, really). You can work around the range with skill :P

 

Quellcrist

Tiiki,

What about losing the MoD points? I hate getting sap'd by a sub rogue in a fight.

I'm currently 41/2/18 and I've been thinking of going 41/20/0 but I hated getting spotted and losing the chance at a first hit to another rogue.

Also, do people find that pushing the poisons are really worth it with 51/x/1x with a mutilate build as well?

 

Cyn

After receiving Gladiator in season 1, playing with a disc priest, and missing out in season 2 by a couple of points, I thought i was a somewhat decent pvper, but in trying to just add a mage to the team and move to 3s, and after he played some 3s with another PMR team, he has started raising issues that i may not be as aware of whats going on around me as i should.

Now i feel i do pay pretty close attention to anything i can see, however, due to mouse turning, that is typically always constrained to the direction of my target, not allowing me to look at what is happening in the other 270 degrees of vision. I'm just wondering what other peoples tips are to try and stay aware of everything thats going on around you other than your current target.

 

Mackabre

Staying vocal on vent is a huge deal I think. Also, I'm scrolled out a lot, so peripheral (sp? lol) vision catches a lot.

 

Grunge

"/console CameraDistanceMaxFactor 4", liberal use of free look (turn off smart-camera under interface). Raid Marks help as well in 5's, but aren't as important (at least to me) in 3's and 2's.
And as said above. Communicate in Vent.

On another note, I tried out 2v2 with a priest today and I have to say it's VERY refreshing to play without HARP rogues being a bother. :P
Although we did make it to 1999 (so short of 2k!) with 38-1 I'm pretty sure that a proper Rogue-Mage is a hard counter to this team (we met a few 2k ones but won) as a good mage can lockdown a priest for quite some time. Once we survive that window it's not hard to outlast them.
Our only loss was to a Warrior-Paladin where we made the wrong call and tried to kill the paladin. A 5min kitefest later we lost.
Unfortunately we didn't meet them again, but we applied our gained knowledge against other Paladin-Warrior teams and proceeded to kill warriors left and right. (We still opened on the paladin, forcing bubble, then switched to warrior).
We didn't meet any Warrior-Druids thought, that as Rogue-Druid I found as easy as taking candy from a baby, but with a priest it might prove slightly harder. Then again we'll see. Hopefully I can be bothered playing later today and we can push it to 2.1-2.2k+ (And sell it next week *cough*)

Overall I'd say that rogue-priest has more options than rogue-druid, as well as a lot faster games, but isn't as consistent and has a few more hard counters unlike Rogue-Druid that has almost none.

Also I played these games pve specced, Improved EA would've helped, but I'm not sure if I have spare points.
Priests sure are paper though when you can catch them in a kidney with low Inner Focus and EA/SnD running and rip into them with a renataki combo.

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

 

aaroninwv

I'm surprised that so many rogues are sticking with sub after the nerf. Theres no doubt its stronger than it was despite the nerf, but why not combat/maces which was considered the top build prior to the hemo buff. It doesn't seem anyone even considers that an option anymore. I thought it would just be back to combat after HARP, but apparently not? Is it a possibility that they are just hesitant to give up hemo, and eventually there will be rogues returning to combat? Or does the hemo buff make sub that much better than combat/mace? Or is it that sub was underestimated before everyone tried out HARP? I'm personally planning on first going back to combat, but I'm not sure.

Here's a question I've seen asked earlier in the thread, but as some of this thread was during earlier seasons, and things change, I'll ask it again.

I don't have a ton of experience in arenas, at least not with all brackets. As a rogue in arenas, how often are you the target? And would it be better to go all out defense, or is there a point where you want to work on offense rather than stamina/resilence (in other words, should you go for 492 resilience and max stamina (13k hp with 1300 ap), or should you stop after reaching a lower point of resilience and 10k hp and go attack power from there? (10k hp with 1600 ap)) I know this will depend some on your build and on the size of your arena team, but not having the experience, I'm looking for some guidelines.

 

Mackabre

Imo, because of the HARP popularity, people have learned to CC/kite you through the 15second bursts of AR. Going back to combat/mace would be worse. Not having Sub talents would ultimately get you killed by warriors far easier and any sub rogue would tear you up.
I've always played with prep, even before HARP. 2's with a mage, it was needed with so many warriors and healer/x, you need the second set of cooldowns.
I think ShS was vastly underrated and its working well for me since the nerf. There are fights where I'm sure I would've lost if I were HARP because it just dragged on too long and I would've ran out of cooldowns. ShS is a lot less CD reliant and harder to CC because you're instantly at your target every 30 seconds.

As for targetting. It's hard to say, it varies a lot. Some makeups you might be the target, other make ups you may not be. And even makeups where its advantageous to target your partner, they might go after you or hell even switch midfight to throw you off. I'm running with I think about 10.2k HP, 400 resil, 1800 AP, 33% crit. I'm ShS/ass.

 

ekval

Do you play 41/20/0 in all brackets or switch to 5x/0/x in 5v5? I have really hard time choosing my Mutilate spec, mainly for 3v3 team (druid warlock rogue) and later for 2v2 (disc priest).

Problem as I see it that with 41/20 you either need to lose Imp. KS or Master Poisoner, with 5x/0/x you lose quite alot damage. I've played with 43/0/18 for sometime now (about month) and feel it is probably the best all around spec. You get Imp. KS + 2/2 MP and Serrated Blades from Subtlety which quite much negates the Imp. EA what 5X/0/x has to offer. Only thing you really loose compared to 5x build is 5/5 Imp. Poisons which isn't big loss alteast what I've heard (and tried for short period).

Only good thing in Combat tree in 41/20/0 is DWspec and Imp. Sprint mostly and I don't know do they really stand a chance against usefulness of Dirty Tricks + Stealth talents + SB (and Opp. if you want to count it). Sometimes when against druids and warriors I do miss the white damage from Combat variant , but Serrated Blades evens it little bit.

 

Tiiki

Isn't Step/Hemo is better for Druid/Lock/Rogue in 3v3?

FYI I'm running 41/20 in this exact lineup but feel Step/Hemo would be better... but I can't afford to keep respeccing for 5s.

We only started yesterday and got to about 1650 with a 12-3 record. Losses were to mage/warrior/druid (we went on the mage who was v good and successfully kited me most of the match whilst the warrior eventually killed our lock) and a mirror match with a Hemo/Step Rogue.

 

Eyrelav

I've decided to PVP seriously on my rogue, and like everyone else ive been hit by the nerf to Ar/prep last week. taking im going to focus on getting my 2v2 as high as possible this season, my partner will mainly be a disc/priest. i would like to hear from the experienced PvPers what spec they have opted for this patch.

I prefer not to go mutilate cause i will be focusing on 2v2, plus saving points for a pair of daggers all over will be too troublesome.

right now im thinking of 2 viable specs i could go, ive tried 30/0/31 and it is very effective when i 2v2 with a dps partner, but has anyone tried 2v2 as 30/0/31 with a healer? ive also thought of the standard combat mace spec, which is great for sustained DPS but lacks the upper hand on opening on enemies and also serrated blades for the extra armor penetration.
Or is sHs alrite for arena 2s with average PVE gear? (up to gruuls etc)


2ndly, i would like some advice on how to PVP with a disc/priest. should i usually be on the DPS so that my priest can mana burn their healer? what if its a druid?

thks for the advice in advance =)

 

Stienz

[quote=aaroninwv;601856]I'm surprised that so many rogues are sticking with sub after the nerf. Theres no doubt its stronger than it was despite the nerf, but why not combat/maces which was considered the top build prior to the hemo buff. It doesn't seem anyone even considers that an option anymore. I thought it would just be back to combat after HARP, but apparently not? Is it a possibility that they are just hesitant to give up hemo, and eventually there will be rogues returning to combat? Or does the hemo buff make sub that much better than combat/mace? Or is it that sub was underestimated before everyone tried out HARP? I'm personally planning on first going back to combat, but I'm not sure.
QUOTE]

I tried some sub specs after the nerf, I feel gimped with the new hemo, and I know it sucks. I tried 15/46/0 combat/mace, with blade twisting, murder, imp sprint and imp kick. It feels like a breeze:

- not missing prep at any point, I got my my blade flurry for pets, I got my adreline rush for extra pressure on their healer
- I still got tons of snare breakers, imp sprint, trinket, WoTF (which, ofc, is undead only), vanish and CloS. I don't feel impaired in movement at all (in 2v2 and 3v3 at least)
- I hit like I truck, 1500 sinister strikes on people with full pvp gear and I my AP is really low. Huge offhand hits, undodgeable finishers
- blade twisting + mace stuns owns, druids are much easier, mages are easier to catch
- best sustained damage for the longer fights.

Still it has some downsides:

- not having MoD sucks, sapping is twice as hard, espec with paranoia and deception
- smaller blind range, you actually need to walk towards someone to blind him
- combo point generation is low, most combo points are spend on kidney shots