Elph

I'm about 95% sure that you cannot dodge attacks from behind in a PvP situation. Aside from play experience, there is some proof within a Shadowstep video I watched not that long ago (pre HARP nerf, however) where the rogue specifically noted his use of Shadowstep on an evasion'ed rogue, in order to get behind his target, and avoid the chance of his following KS being dodged.

However, I'm only 95% sure, but otherwise I think it can atleast be said that the chance of your target avoiding your attack (dodge, parry, block) is obviously, substantially reduced when attacking from behind.

 

Quellcrist

ok so if there is almost 0 chance of dodging an attack from behind, using Ghostly is completely useless if I'm burning down a caster and there's a warrior on my ass... quite literally.

 

BrutalBright

PvE targets can dodge from behind, players can not.

 

Tiiki

Right. Ditto for evasion and your natural ~20% dodge chance. A warrior on your ass literally does ~25-30% more damage since you get no dodge or parry. This is why non-dagger builds are much better vs. Warriors. They can tank their damage and do damage back, not just one or the other.

 

Accupuncture

Ahh, but the attacker can still miss.

 

Safid

So I tried out ShS myself.

What fun it is to bounce around! I am so hard to kite! haha!

And exactly how am I supposed to kill *anyone*? I mean seriously. Anyone? This spec has no burst and sustained so tepid that any half competent healer can use a third of their attention to keep my target up. About what I expected, really. Sigh.

Any one want to pass me a few tips? I've seen some pro moves in videos. Premed ShS CS EA > now you're out of energy but the guy has 5 sunders on him. Is that ... it?

 

Hildegard

Isn't ShS now considered an outlast build vs. Mutilate for burst and combat or SealFate/Hemo for the inbetween, that only works with massive PVE gear ?

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

Tiiki

Something like that. It is outlast, and it is pretty dull (in THAT sense). I do think it's fun to port around- as an escape almost more than an anti-kite mechanism. You will never kill a non-dry healer in equal gear unless you're very very lucky though.

 

Hildegard

I really had to change some reflexes due to cheat death. Kidney Shot, Cold Blood, Mutilate, Mutilate and Cheat death is active. So I have to wait for three more second to be able to kill him,which is especially annoying when he and his mage/warlock/whatever partner are focussing my shadowpriest. I changend it to solarplexus as the next move, if cheat death is active. Changes I am sheeped/feared/cycloned... by the time cheat death runs out are quite high.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

Melnor

I tried ShS for a day and came to the same conclusions that most of you have too. It's nice to get an intercept on a twice as long cooldown, but I feel exactly like I do when I play my fury warrior alt. And we see how many fury warriors do good in arena ratings.

 

Tower

About the most useful application I've found for ShS in 2v2 and 3v3 is when you're being focused lead players away then ShS back to their healer, who should be a good deal away. If you can communicate this with your teammates you can surprise their healer and put a lot of pressure on him. Of course, instead of accusing/using ShS as a gimp intercept, we just use it as a gimp intervene.

As for outlast, it kinda means you need to be playing with a druid in 2v2 and 3v3 to be successful, then something like a warlock or warrior for 3v3. Which is mostly what you see with Shadowstep rogues. zzzz

 

Tiiki

Yeah, I have a 3v3 with Druid/Lock at the moment, as Mutilate. We lose when I die, and Step would definitely avoid that situation. But I also get a lot of early kills with Muti, and those would disappear too.

I don't want to roll over and accept Step/Hemo as a 'useful' PvP spec because it IS just a gimped Warrior spec, it fulfils the exact same role, and I want Blizzard to realise that the spec needs something major in 2.4...

 

Safid

There's just no way I'll be staying Shadowstep. It's too many talent points invested for too little. So that leaves me with Mutilate I guess, which is what I've been playing for over a year (except for the month or so of HARP). It's a fine spec, though I'm a bit over it at this point, and you just get rocked by warriors, but it'll serve.

 

Hildegard

I would enjoy a buff for mutilate much more. Perhabs some more percentages on the improved kidney shot (or even better lowered chances kidney shot will be resisted) or Find Weaknesses applying to all attacks or finally Envenom working with wound poison.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

Tower

I'd bet money we aren't getting buffed until the expansion. Of all the classes Blizzard is the most clueless in how to balance rogues for pvp.

One thing I can recommend for those of you trying out Shadowstep builds is to pick up the Battlemaster's Determination trinket if you're really playing with druid/lock/war setups or semi drain priest/hunter/rogue. Really helps you get the most out of Cheat Death when being focused so you don't die in a situation like I outlined above.

 

Tiiki

I dont think any of those things gives Mutilate what it needs, which is a little more mobility. But yes, a dose more yellow damage would help compensate for the extra time off target too.

I'm not at all bored by Mutilate yet, but I'm also not going to have a chance to play it, as I'm potentially going to be in 3v3 and 5v5 teams without Paladins, ergo: Step required. In 5v5 because you get snared too much (and Hunters own melee in teams without paladins) and in 3v3 because Warriors and non-dagger Rogues own Muti Rogues.

 

Rath

I personally couldn't understand why a lot of rogues went ShS after HARP was nerfed. I went back to a deep combat build for the sustained and a few other frills I missed when I was HARP. Personally I feel this build fits my playstyle much better, even if ShS looks like so much fun I don't see it being as dangerous as a deep combat or mutilate build.

 

Tiiki

The problem with deep combat is you dont get the sap/blind goodies or cheat death AND you don't get the scaling talents which bring your AP/crit much higher, AND you dont get the 20% extra damage under 35%, which is totally awesome. Or serrated blades. Or the hemo debuff.

I'm just not convinced that over the course of a match that Combat beats Step Hemo for damage. You do get BF, AR, Riposte, and most especially Mace Stun, however.

But I don't think it's clear cut either way. And Step is much more fun than Maces Combat. The reason people went Maces Combat is because Hemo (deep subt) wasn't viable before it was buffed, not because it was that great...

 

Hildegard

Yes, but I still don't see the point why any team would bring a SHS rogue instead of a warrior. I can however see the point in bringing a deep poison mutilate or even a 41-20 Mutilate rogue especially when playing with a hunter.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

Cos-

Slapping a 20% buff to white damage on Find Weakness and making Imp KS also give 3/6/9% chance to resist effects that remove control of your character would actually make Mutilate a viable pve build as well as giving Mutilate a little bit more pvp mobility.

 

Tiiki

Hildegard: I completely agree with you. At least in gut feel.

Playing devil's advocate though: what really does Mutilate bring? A warrior is more mobile, just as hard, if not harder to kill, has instant MS (far better than poisons), Mace stun and does bursty damage. And can target switch far better than a Mutilate rogue, too. Sure they can't keep a 3k expose up, and it's a very nice debuff if you have a second physical team member (oh the irony of rogues bringing 'utility'), but why else?

ShS/Combat are definitely gimped Warriors, but why is Mutilate any better? On demand burst every 3 minutes? Well, maybe.

Ming, it seems, would say that Step rogues don't need a Paladin to back them up and that's their USP, but I'm not sure it's a worthwhile tradeoff anyway...

EDIT: If Fleet footed was 15% and included stuns as well (logically allowable I'm sure you'll agree), it would at least give some proper flavour to Mutilate's mobility. Less breakers, but much more 'slippery' than a Warrior.

I would also add envenom to Wound, though I don't think it'd be used very often *at all*, but it might at least be worth binding. I'd also give Master Poisoner or Mutilate itself some additional 'unique' flavour.

 

Hildegard

Improved Kidneyshot and two Mutilates offer a reliable on demand burst twice per minute. I think only shadow priest have a flat damage increase on the target and only for magic damage.

Edit: Forgot about BM hunters.

Edit2: Alone a buff for improved kidney alone would make Mutilate much more desireable. Make it 15% instead of nine and most burst teams would have a Mutilate rogue.

The point why rogues perhabs won't get this additional burst is most likely the shadow priest, which can be destroyed within seconds and this possibility is just too plain annoying.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

Safid

Well over the course of a fight a warrior can get lucky and press MS, WW and suddenly have Execute light up. However what a warrior can't do that a Mutilate rogue *can* do is do that whenever they want. Give me three seconds notice ("got their pally locked down!") and I can KS > Renataki > CB > Mutilate > Eviscerate and do around 5k to someone. Nor can they apply a 9% damage buff to the rest of their team on demand, and of course Quick Recovery is better at tanking magic damage than plate mail is. I can see Mutilate working very well in PMR.

I wish I could say 'disruption' but let's be honest, spamstring for stun procs, intercept abuse and pummel are just as good if not better than kick and kidney shot. Lots of provisos to the Mutilate's advantages too of course (like you can only burst ONCE a fight) and other advantages that warriors have, but it's something.

 

Tiiki

Not 100% reliable, with all the dodging and stun resisting going around, but yeah, ok....

Genuine question: Do you often (and is it right to) wait the full 12 seconds for 120e before KSing?

 

Cos-

EA lasts 30 seconds so you could theoretically get get 5 cp, wait a bit, drop the ea, get cp back then watch the healer/partner for kick/blind while energy comes back. Blind then switch and KS with 120 energy. Most of the time when I come back with 120 energy it's usually due to being kited rather then careful planning though :P

edit: Not to mention while you're regenning energy you or you partner can try and get your focus target to blow their pvp trinket by ccing and pretending to target switch etc.