I haven't picked up any new weapons yet (waiting for patchnotes), but I have 2 mongoose enchants banked and ready. I really really want daggers to work so I'm hoping something pans out. If not Mut is still ok.

As far as money... Manatombs! I barely ever play though these days, so things come slowly and I don't mind so much.

You're probably right about deadliness. It's been a busy day for me though since I just got back from a trip and had to catch up heavily on the arena.

As for gear, I can't see anything wrong since you don't have access to pve gear of which I would use a select few pieces.
Although I would gem with agility or hit since crit is far too expensive and AP doesn't scale with Sinister Calling. Agility is really nice for that extra dodge as well.

On other news it seems that a lot of our local Blackout talent has taken up SK-Gaming's call and transfered off to Cyclone.
So if you're still looking to transfer, I guess Cyclone would be the place.

Not sure yet. It's all hugely up in the air... thanks for the tip though.

Going to see how my new 5 with resto Druid works out. At least one person - the key person - the Disc Priest - is basically an alt though. So we'll probably head down to 1650 before we start winning again.

You're right about gemming of course. I've actually swapped 4 gems since my Armory. That was from Mutilate, which I'd left in from HARP (i.e. lots of AP gemming). The 1727 is with more Agi gems - trading AP for dodge, basically. And a little hit. I can't afford 24ap/run meta, so had to stick with the Spirit Shard budgetzone one

I now have around 10 or 12 mongoosed weapons in the bank... have spent an ABSURD amount on it, especially in the old days when it was really new.

Oi mates

So another rogue and I, who are extreme pve whores, want to do some 2v2ing. I've pvped a bit, did well last season (2100 with druid/rogue/lock!), but haven't done much in this season. So we don't have much in the way of omg great pvp gear, but our pve gear is top notch (been farming illidan for awhile). We'd like to go full pve gear and just nuke our way up for some laughs, not sure how far that'll get us but it's gonna be a blast!

So I'm thinking of the benefits of our specs, and how we should perhaps spec something that compliments each other. I'm leaning towards 20/0/41 but I'm really wondering if a pvp variant of full combat might not be better for serious nukage. Mutilate isn't really a possibility atm due to our weapons. So anyone else with any experience or pointers? One of us as 20/0/41 with full vile poisons and the other as a pvp 16/45/0 perhaps?

Sorry guys, still vouching for the ShS/Hemo spec. =D

I just find that if games last long, any spec like HARP or Combat just gets f'ed. You lose all your mobilities and can't stay on target. Good teams lock down rogues during CD spams and it gets rough. I hated it when I was HARP because of that. So easy to lock down AR during the 15 seconds.

Mutilate or ShS i think is the specs i would go since the patch. Since I'm not an avid Muti player (not great at the positioning fight), I love ShS. The scaling in the lower talents in Sub. help so much, Deadliness and Sinister Calling. I'm like over 1850 AP, 33% crit and still using S2 weapons. Works great I think in my PRM setup and Mage/rogue 2's.

Can't wait for Mut/Prep with Deadliness and Dirty Deeds >

Why isn't +7 damage ever considered when enchanting main hand daggers? I am assuming that 1 damage = 14 atk power making it out to be 98 attack power(I do realize it only affects the weapon it is on). The only weapon I would consider putting +7 damage on is a main hand dagger. With all the huge + percentage bonuses it would seem that +7 would come out decent with backstab and ambush. Can anyone elighten me as to why it has been thrown aside as junk?

I'm with you on this. I very recently went ShS/Hemo (from 30/0/31 and before that HARP). I generally just do 2v2 and 3v3 arena and am just getting the hang of it (i.e. i'm a noob in the 1600 bracket) but recent games playing ShS have opened my eyes i have to say. No more getting kited - cheat death - very solid DPS and hell i even took Master of Subtlety and Enveloping Shadows both of which are working out brilliantly. I'm going to tweak my spec a little and make it 11/0/50 (i.e. no Lethality) to take pretty much everything in Sub and i am confident it will be both effective and (most importantly) fun to play.

Maybe it just suits me but even though i am still getting used to the spec (day 2 now) even in training mode it just seems to rock - a lot. Giving up Lethality was hard as i've always auto spent the 5 talent points there when in Assass but the realisation that it doesn't effect everything (e.g. no change to Evis) and only kicks in maybe 25% of the time at most (everyone has some resilience these days even in BGs on my Battlegroup) for (effectively) 15% more damage on targets who will actually reduce that crit damage by 20% led me to the conclusion that Lethality is pretty gay when you can take say 3/3 enveloping shadows and 2/2 heightened senses instead (for 19% avoidance of AoE spells (including AoE fears!) amoung other things).

Just a word on Evis as well - i know the theory craft behind Evis versus various other finishers (with Evis generally being scorned) but on an EA'd cloth/leather wearer and the kind of ShS/hemo build i am talking about coming out of stealth (Master of Sub +10%) with a 5/5 Evis from Shadowstep (+20%) on a target below 35% (+20%) with 3/3 Imp Evis (+15%) and Murder (2%) can bematch ending and immensely satisfying........

Anyway - key points: ShS seems terrific in PvP and points in Lethality can be better wspent elsewhere.

Proposed build here: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Rogue -> Talent Calculator

@Malpractices
Because Ambush and Backstab aren't really used in arenas at all, except for some lucky hits with ambush on drinking targets. For mutilate I think it doesn't really help to much. Also plus damage scales better on faster weapons, than on slowers, while AP scales equally.

I seem to be in the same boat as many; trying to find a spec that works for *me*. While I have a deep love for mutilate/sub, the lack of +hit rating when not combat spec has been really hurting (62ish HR). So, to try out some different scenarios, I am currently running 25/36/0 and just relying on human Perception OP'edness for 2's.

Current build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

The goal in mind is to keep as un-CCable as possible; passive 20% root/snare, 10% fear/stun and 15% runspeed have done well so far. Quick Recovery was an easy buy to help take the load off my healers when I'm forced to tank a warrior.

I'm still porking around in the 1600's bracket due to RL > WoW, but I might stick with this build since it seems to have promise.

Will of the Forsaken is hands down the best racial for any Horde Rogue.
Perception (as a racial) comes close, but WoTF is still easily the best.

You should take points from Lethality to get Coldblood and 2/2 Imp. EA. Like this. Coldblood is more useful than 1pts in Lethality or VP for sure.

You might want to question usefulness of Imp. EA in that build, I doubt that you have CP's to Expose Armor in decent basis, so the benefit from Imp. EA is quite low (it's still probably better choice than Lethality).

The usefulness of Mace Spec also really highlights with QR/Combat because it really lacks CP generation for KS outside AR.

I don't know how ShS can have burst anyway + with S3 gear it's more worth to use those 9 points from Combat tree to either Assassination or Subtlety.

Glad you should mention this; I've been finding lethality to be more of a point dump than anything relatively useful given its mechanics vs. resilience. I usually have 5-600 passive ArPen, so a 2-3point expose is usually all I need to drop on cloth followed by building another 2 points for SnD. CB has been a big debate amongst myself and a rogue buddy; his suggestion is to pick up 2 points in imp. poisons to increase stacking speeds to further facilitate the benefit of vile. This would basically make it a 1 in 3 chance per swing to apply poison instead of 1 in 4.

Edit: I am interested in trying maces, still torn on which to use - either save up for S3, or wait for Supremus to drop Syphon; I have the BT trash mace OH already banked. The idea of being able to save 2600ish arena points and avoid buying a MH has been my biggest concern

Quick Recovery/Combat is really nothing new, it was semi popular season 1, then most realized warriors did the same thing but twice as well as that spec.

There really should be a disclaimer when posting/suggesting specs, most have been posted, tried, tested throughout the many pages of this thread. If you're not discovering some new (and arena successful) synergy in your spec, teammates, gear and arena partners - why are you posting about your spec at all? Please, before posting about how you're not too serious about arena in the 1600 racket with QR/combat, search the thread for any information you may actually be wanting. This isn't a rogue blog, some ask advice, some provide new information and experiences in arena that may better the arena ratings of other rogues.

As for RL > WoW in relation to arena ratings, I only ever log in to PvP. I got gladiator last season by playing an average of 15 games a week in 2v2 and 3v3, doesn't take long at all to be successful in arena once all your honor gear is farmed.

Actually QR isn't the focus here, it would be Fleet Footed to assist with the larger issue of being CC'ed. I have not seen many stacking that outside of mute builds, so thought some light could be brought to it as an idea.

I think 5% to dodge + 4% to hit is much more worth it then getting leth or imp ea or vile poisons (isnt vile poisons still bugged?). Or if you put the 9 into more sub talents, you get more utility. I think 41 into sub is enough utility and the only talent that would make a case against the 9 points put into combat would be Master of Sublety. The rest is just filler utility. Now if you are above the minimum hit rating with pvp gear on, then of course going more into ass or sub would be better. I think the 11/9/41 is centered more on if you dont have the hit rating in your gear to make the minimum. 142 is a lot of hit rating to cover when trying to don 400 resil + 11k HP. I much rather hit with my abilities then have 15% to advoid AoE or 5/5 camo or w/e you tryin to fill into sub.

I have finally hit 70 and farmed my honor for my S1 swords as they offer the flexibility of bouncing my spec to combat for pve. I'm current using a 17/0/44 spec. It's working well so far, the added mobility is amazing. It hits lightly now but as I gear into my vindicators and season one it should pick up. My question is how useful is Cheat Death? I don't notice it saving my life too often. If I'm dying generally my healer is CC'd / locked down anyways and another three seconds to live don't make a large difference.

Would anyone swap these three points for 5/5 vile poisons?

It all boils down to personal preference and how you play in your brackets. I personally am very fond of Cheat Death, as it has saved me more than once. It has also saved other rogues I've fought more than once. I play 2s with a frost mage, so there's no healer. If Cheat Death goes off it's sort of like the klaxons are sounding red alert and it's my cue to do anything I can to escape. I will use anything I can at that point like Cloak, Vanish, Sprint, and the trinket. This is also a good time to use the battlemaster trinket if you have one. I then run away and let my frost mage deal with them as I bandage/eat. This, of course, runs into problems with those damn bleed effects, but nothing's perfect I suppose.

Quoting my own question for Lethality discussion in Mutilate builds, these are taken from DPS spreadsheet with PvP gear, 4000 armor humanoid target and unbuffed. In Mutilate build (checked 41/20/0 and 43/0/18), 1 point to Lethality increases my total damage output by about 0,50% (~4,5 DPS increase). Same time 1 point in Lethality increases my Mutilate crits with about 100 more damage. So going from 5/5 Lethality to 0/5 Lethality decreases my total damage with about 23DPS (~2,5%) and lowers my Mutilate crits with 500 damage.

In PvP situation against 400 resilience target 5/5 Lethality still increases my Mutilate crit damage with about 500. Taking 10% crit away (about what 400 resilience target reduces to be critten) Lethality value drops to ~3,5DPS per talent point.

Lethality definetly seems quite shit on paper (or spreadsheet) but there ain't many other places where to put those points in Mutilate build when Imp. Eviscerates seems more waste. I'm considering dropping few points from Lethality to Imp. EA thought, but just wondering if ~4000 ArP with EA is overkill? Mutilates while done under Imp. KS effect also increases Lethality value right? Which one is more gamebreaking, the bonus substained DPS from Imp. EA (if it's not overkill to have 4k ArP) or the small burst increase from Lethality? Probably depends of bracket and setup you play with, how high EA uptime is possible to have and what crit rate you can obtain after resilience effect, but still.

Came down to 41/20/0 variation with talent calculator which seems to be most well rounded spec if you want to go DWSpec in my mind. Still can't decide between that or 43/0/18 spec thought. With 43/0/18 variation I've been thinking should I drop 1pts from Lethality and Master Poisoner to take 2/2 Elusiveness? Is it really that big game winner what some players tend to spread?

Edit: Sorry for messy post

How does SStep daggers perform these days? I started doing casual 2s with my roommate (Druid/Rogue) who is currently Mutilate/Combat and we're considering other options. I will be sticking with my PvE spec (no Feral Charge), but he's more focused on PvP and is willing to spec whatever. He'd rather do SStep Hemo, but he doesn't have a weapon for that at the moment.

edit: our team link: The World of Warcraft Armory

Been playing with druid in 2v2 at ~2100 this season and Mutilate seems still most powerful when running with healer. You can have QR+VP which are pure gold. Combat Maces is other good contender, but I don't see myself playing ShS with healer in 2v2 atleast. Someone with better experience of ShS can probably give more tips of it but Mutilate is working quite well atleast for our team.

Read the thread! Step/Daggers is trash. Backstab is broken vs. Resilience.