Always always always trinket the HoJ from a Ret Paladin ;x

Can anyone confirm this? I was just about to buy a dagger offhand.

I was under the impression it was not normalised.

Check the top-ends as well! <_<

Gladiator's Pummeler 189-285
Gladiator's Right Ripper 166-309
Gladiator's Slicer 189-285
vs
Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler 177-330
Merciless Gladiator's Right Ripper 177-330
Merciless Gladiator's Slicer 203-305

Ie. S1 Pummeler had the same damage range as the sword, while for s2 (and 3) it was changed to the same range as the fist weapon. Avg. Damage is the same for all of them anyway so it doesn't matter.

Yes as far as I know it is normalized just like every other attack with the exception of Hemo.

As far as I'm aware, Hemo has been normalized as of the last couple patches, ever since they added in the 125% (now 110%) weapon damage modifier.

If wowwiki.com is right, then shiv is normalized, while Riposte and Ghostly Strike aren't.

Normalization - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

My understanding is that Shiv is normalised too, which makes a fair difference to Shiv damage. To the extent that I'd rather use a sword/mace/fist 1.5 OH over the dagger 1.4 OH for all builds/specs (incl. ShS/Dagger) apart from Mutilate, where an OH dagger is an outright requirement.

Sadly, the Mutilator is the worst of both worlds- expensive to shiv with, and low-ish damage. Still worth it for Mutilate builds though. Which pretty much makes the Vengeful Shiv a pointless item...

Those are some retarded, and fake changes. Clearly not a rogue who wrote them.

Edit: Premed just plain needs a buff. Make it useable out of combat, and being able to build CP on multiple targets would be great. You could actually save Premed for a crucial game moment, instead of burning it early like most rogues do since you're just not sure if you'll ever get the chance to use it again. Ming had an awesome idea too, make Shadowstep work with Initiative and Master of Subtelty, solves a lot of the focus problems of the Sub tree relying on openers/restealthing.

Blizzard have been moving away from Prep reliance by shortening the cooldowns of abilities, I can't imagine they'd just randomly revert this. These are surely 100% fake.

Makes you wonder who would spend so much time and effort making them though.

The entire series of rumored class changes that have leaked out lead me to believe that they are faked. So far I've found a set of hunter, paladin and these rogue changes all posted at different blogs, the original thread on the wow forums seems to have been removed. Each set of changes includes a few minor changes and then one or two really weird changes to core mechanics, such as a sap cooldown and the ability to use sap during combat.

I call fake!

Allowing CP to be built on multiple targets would buff the hell out of Mutilate and SF/Hemo builds, as well as other builds. I say buff, but honestly would just allow for a higher level of play from rogues, being able to work up 5cp on a healer then swap to a dps to pressure cooldown use, then Shadowstep over to the healer for a full Kidney Shot. The strength in Mutilate and SF/Hemo would increase as they'd allow for faster CP gen, imagine being able to unleash 2-3 chain Eviscerates, or finishers in general on different targets with Relentless Strikes help.

I'm going to completely disagree with this actually. I don't pvp particularly seriously on my rogue (~1800s) but I do arenas seriously on my priest (over 2k in 2s and 3s,) with an AR/prep rogue gone shadowstep in 2s and 3s. Overall, shadowstep has given him better survivability, less reliance on cooldowns, great time on target and mobility, and still good damage, especially with bit of pve gear. He still keeps people off me when I need him to, doesn't get kited, and cheat death has given us literally 50% more wins vs 2 dps teams in 2s. In 3s, he goes 250ish resi and we just explode cloth, and the added mobility has made most pmr teams a joke (we kill mage) as well as the added survivability in spite of wearing heavy pve gear.

This of course assumes that a priest partner won't die to focus fire, and as a dwarf, I have more tricks than most. However, I think ShS is a great spec for 2v2 with a disc priest.

I've read through nearly all the posts above (admitedly skimming some) and have seen mostly talent build discussions, some discussions about why Blizzard does stupid things, perhaps a few gear discussions, but very little in the way of strategy discussions in various arena brackets (though I have seen some).

I've been playing in the 2v2 bracket with a Shadow Priest since about mid-S2 (when neither of us had any PvP gear or resilience). I usually spec 21/0/40. When S3 started, we started to get more serious about the team and trying to play more than the 10 required games a week we had been playing. This has proven frustrating since 1) 2v2 queues range from 8-15 minutes and 2) we seem to have gotten stuck at the 1650-1725 range. I think we're stuck partly because the times between queues are SOO long that we lose focus and partly because I'm not sure either of us is all that hot at developing strategies against different team make-ups and focusing the same target. In my opinion, it's the lack of strategic thinking that's our main issue.

For certain teams that were completely destroying us, I've gotten some strategy suggestions from the WoW forums (mostly from a SPriest called Vao and a Rogue called Hemotherapy, which each run teams with similar set-ups). How do your teams develop strategies? We both really want to break 1850 this season... My luck has been poor for getting upgraded PvE weapons, since I'm low man (well woman) on the totem pole in the DKP land, and nothing useful has dropped when I've had a shot at getting it. Apparenlty, 550 DKP (when we get 5 per kill) doesn't buy you a weapon.

Last week, we purchased a 3v3 team (that we were both already on, but no one else on the team was ever around to play - so mainly we just took over the lead on the team) and acquired a server transferred frost mage to play with us and I think also some kind of shaman (who I haven't played with at all). With a 3 DPS team, it still seems like my 2v2 spec would be appropriate since our team is burst or die and the burst on demand from Cold Blood is useful in most match-ups. If we haven't won the game within 3 minutes, both casters are oom. We get destroyed by 2 healer teams, since they outlast our burst, kill me, and then the casters are dead in the water. Warrior, druid, paladin/priest are the teams that we're having the most trouble with. In those situations, it does seem like Shadowstep might have it's uses, since sometimes the hamstring is preventing me from being very useful.

Again, my question is about strategies. Strategy is just a PvP skill I'm weak on and I'm looking for ways to develop it. If anyone can offer suggestions or resources, or if people can talk about how they beat their toughest match-ups in the 2s and 3s brackets, that would be a huge help.

We actually play priest/hunter/rogue, so it's a bit different, and PMR isn't mirror match for us, but we do quite well against anything with druid/lock, since we can tear through even a SL/SL lock with relative ease, especially with fear/blind/silencing on the druid, double drain, and dispel spam on the lock. If anything, our strat versus the various 2 healer teams (mostly paladin/sham/warrior and druid/priest/warrior) is the least developed and those give us the largest problems, which has little to do with the rogue.

As for 2s, I think it really might come down to the ability to add PVE gear that makes shadowstep deal the punishing damage that you seek, so we may be arguing different points here. On my rogue my shadowstep arena gear gives me about 260 res/150 hit/2k AP/ 35% crit. The rogue with my priest has similar stats. The extra offense makes a huge difference with the scaling with deadliness/SC. Also, as compared to Mutilate or heavy combat, he's much less susceptible to kiting vs. the 2 teams you mentioned, which gives him increased damage just through increased time on target. Sustained damage has been fine too, with more escape and comparable mitigation to combat if he is focused.

I run spriest/rogue at the moment. Which team setups are giving you a problem? To form a strategy against team setups you must start with identifying the problem. What is the problems you face when you are fighting the teams that beat you? You will have to identify the weaknesses your team has before you can create strategies to help hide and not expose those weaknesses. Since I'm having decent success with the same setup, I will offer some weaknesses and strenghts we have found through trials and tribulations (briefly).

1) Strengths:
- Very good burst dps
- Very good CC chain
- Anti druid + 1 teams. We probably have a 99% win ratio against druid + 1 teams.

2) Weaknesses:
- The #1 weakness with the combo is I'd say that a spriest is the least survivable team-mate for a rogue in a 2 dps situation. The other favorable team-mates for rogues have better and more defensive abilities (soul link, ice block, etc).
- You only have one chance to exploit a window of opportunity. The whole synergy of this team I'd say revolves around a fear - silence - blind combo. It works great against all races except for undead who can cancel 2 of those CC abilites.
- Me not being undead. Fear ward on me helps me simulate an UD but 3 fear breaks could win a match we otherwise lose.
- One of our weaknesses seem to be the other 2 dps rogue + 1 teams because they have more total defensive outs than us. So to compensate for that, I am spec'd full Combat for undodgeable finishers. Getting stuns through a rogues evasion Ar combo helps take a ton of dps off my spriest friend who gets focus fired 99% of the time. I wear only vindicators gear and 4pc T6 for max dps. I have around 200 resil in the gear setup.


So the key strat is to blow someone up (preferably after a healer has blown NS, Pain Suppression etc) and not to get blown up yourself by a 2 dps mage/rogue setup. Mage/Rogue is a hard match against spriest/rogue. Your spriest has to be real good at getting out of LOS while kiting a rogue as best he can. My combat spec helps with one of those problems. So, practice your powerful CC chain and execute it at the right time and you should be able to take down a defensive stance sword and board warrior with 14k hps while a druid eats a fear-silence-blind and a sap if necessary.

I've been following this thread for a while now and this is my first post on EJ's forum. Great thread by the way. Hopefully I'm not taking this thread off-focus here with this post.

Since the 2.3.2 patch I've been using ShS quite a bit and unfortunately I feel like I've come to rely on it. I also love jumping up to the Horde spawn point in EotS. I've recently started an RMP team and they asked me to go Combat Maces and it just didn't work for me. Between rarely getting the opener, seen out-of-stealth, and being kited to hell I fell back onto my crutch of ShS. Our team is doing okay and recently hit 1819 before falling back to 1772. Between some of the reading that I've done in this thread and other forums, it seems that people recommend against using ShS for an RMP setup. I definitely see the need for more on-demand burst that Mutilate or 30/0/31 brings but it just seems like staying on-target in certain match-ups without ShS or Prep/Sprint is very difficult. Although, I have to think that some of it is just me because I've noticed several top Rogues specc'd Mutilate in RMP setups. I've also considered going back to HARP, so I can get the Mace stuns and the double-Vanish / Sprint. Not to mention that Blade Furry and Adrenaline Rush are great too. Plus, it seems like 2 points for Weapon Expertise would help against Evading Rogues, which I see a lot of around the 1800 bracket. Any recommendations on spec for an RMP Rogue?

Also, I need some help in combating Rogue / Lock / Healer (Druid or Priest) teams. We really only have trouble against these teams when their Rogue focuses me as I'm trying to focus their Lock. Vanish, Shadowstep, and Evasion seem to bail me out sometimes but it doesn't take long for that Rogue to catch-up or toss that Blind on me. So far the following seems to be the best advice that I've read for this situation:

It sounds good and I will talk to my team about it the next time we hook-up for 3's. Other than this, is there anything else we need to be doing? I'm still really hung-up on how to spec for this team. Don't get me wrong, I actually love playing Mutilate and because of that I also know the pitfalls that come when trying to take down a a Frost Mage or Hunter. My other hang-up is that the only MH Dagger I have available to me right now is the S1 Dagger. Is that enough to get me to 1850, so I can get the S3 Shanker?

[quote=roosevelt;612934]We actually play priest/hunter/rogue, so it's a bit different, and PMR isn't mirror match for us, but we do quite well against anything with druid/lock, since we can tear through even a SL/SL lock with relative ease, especially with fear/blind/silencing on the druid, double drain, and dispel spam on the lock. If anything, our strat versus the various 2 healer teams (mostly paladin/sham/warrior and druid/priest/warrior) is the least developed and those give us the largest problems, which has little to do with the rogue.[quote]

My 2s partner (shadow priest) and I have been playing with a several different 3rds for a 3s team in the last week and I've played those both Shadowstep (15/0/46) and my more burst on demand 2s spec (21/0/40).

We played Shadow Priest/Sub Rogue/Frost Mage for about 13 games last week and burned through all but the warrior + 2 healer teams (saw 6 of them) in pretty much 2 minutes or less. We were mostly seeing druid/pally/warrior. Frost mage left the team yesterday (after playing with the shadow priest and shaman for a while - which netted us a drop of 150 points...) and we added a resto druid (so now down around 1575-1600) and were still mostly seeing warrior/paladin/druid teams.

I'm assuming that you're playing disc priest/hunter/rogue? That would give your team similar abilities to ours (healer/ranged mana burning class/rogue). On the teams we were seeing at the 1700-1750 range, the warrior generally starts by targeting shadow priest (since I'm stealthed). Same usually went at the 1575-1600 level actually. I would imagine he goes for the hunter in your set up...

We choose the squishiest healer and focus fire. For our team, we would pick the paladin most of the time. When he bubbled, we would mass dispell his bubble and take him down pretty fast. Once I pop out, the warrior usually switched target to me since rogues are usually pretty easy for warriors to kill (at least compared to a shadow priest who can rage starve one with a shield). Then the priest would just shield me and fear ward me. When the shield faded, if the warrior good bit of rage (which usually he didn't), we would root him and I would flip to the other side of my target - just out of range of the warrior. In the meantime, we would silence the druid. Then when he got within 30 yards of me, I would Shadowstep Blind him, Sprint back to pally. He usually trinketed the blind (since we were laying on the hurt to the Paladin) and my druid would cyclone him - sometimes a few times through DR. Once the paladin was down (which usually happened before I burned much in the way of cooldowns and before the warrior did much do me that my druid couldn't HoT through), we focused the druid who generally spent his time trying to run around crazily with me getting a few hits in - then Deadly Throw (to catch up again) - then a few more hits - then shadowstep - then a few more - deadly throw. It's a pain and took forever If the warrior did pick up some rage (from cc or just time, depending on his talents), overpower is generally less damage than mortal strike, so I would use Evasion, then Ghostly Strike for Damage mitigation.

If it had been a disc priest (instead of a paladin) with the druid, I would suggest mana burning the heck out of the priest, rendering him nearly useless and let the hunter finish him off (to keep him from drinking) while otherwise switching to the druid. Also, the hunter ice block traps are not (or at least were not) included as immobilizing effect that generated rage for warriors. So that's great cc for a warrior. As are frost traps to slow him down.

If it had been a paladin shaman - probably still would go for paladin first - though it's a tougher choice.

Anyone using a different strategy for the 2 healer + warrior vs rogue/ranged damage/healer teams? Are the tactics used by those 2 healer + warrior teams significantly different a higher levels?

My guild just got into BT/Hyjal last night (after killing Kael and Rage Winterchill), so I don't have access to any T6 gear at this point. However, you are correct that, generally, the shadow priest is focus fired.

Worst opponent - hunter/disc priest - who mana burn my priest into oblivion while I seem unable to get near any of them to hit them. We haven't faced this team since we found a new strategy to try on them (stun lock hunter, let priests have a mana burn war without help from hunter, kill hunter - which may require him getting wanded partially to death).

Probably second worst - frost mage/SL lock - who just pump out more damage than us, in general, and have themselves plus the pets. We can never quite figure out who to kill first...but usually try to sap the mage, silence / cc the mage, take out the mage pet and then focus the lock. We have never beaten this team combo, so clearly that isn't working for us.

Yes - we do pretty well against warrior druid. Losses are all just exection failures. I get a sap off on the druid about 90% of the time and we usually lead the warrior into our starting room to make the quarters close and the druid easier to cc. Silence - blind - Arcane Torrent - etc...

Ya - rogue/mage is also ugly. We usually go for cc:ing the rogue as best we can and killing the mage. Usually have enough burst and cc break/interrupts to be effective, but that darn ice block. I usually just stealth and wait and hope my spriest survives long enouhg. I probably get the sap off about 80% of the time on rogues. Read something lately about walking around with the distract up and just clicking when you see the rogue to allow time for tab target, sap. That's worked great.

Yeah, it seems that if their Rogue decides to focus me I'll just have to call it and the Mage will need to step-up the CC on him. I actually took Ghostly Strike out of my build, but perhaps I'll put it back in for just that reason.

So, do you think I should stay ShS or go 41/20/0 Mutilate?

-I've come across this combo a handful of times and if it's not on Blade's Edge map we generally win. Our strat is the same as every other healer +1 strat. Full cc chain on the priest and kill the hunter. Most hunters are marks now so they just eat stunlocks. We put out too much offensive pressure for their priest to risk doing anything other than healing.

-I can't say that I've seen that combo too much. That sounds like one of those that hit a low ceiling and once you get through it you never encounter that combo again.

-I use a sap macro but generally since most rogues have more stealth detect than I do I try to forgo running around and trying to find their rogue; instead we play a psychology game and their rogue tries to find me to sap but generally can't wait long enough and just open on my priest. That's when I open on them and bleed them and take control of the stun lock battle. We generally don't focus mages because of the defensive outs and my spriest friend does a decent job of LOS'ing them. But double undead teams really put a hamper on our strats. It's like, "fear mage! He willed!, Blinding mage!, he trinketed! K, survive till fear cooldown gogo!"

Been trying to play a 3s team with me (combat swords), a really good resto druid and MS war. We started at about 1812 and went 12/22 and ended at 1700ish. Basically, we won the games where we were succesful in bursting down one of the other team before one of us went down at the beginning. However, we usually lost that match up and other 2dps and definitley 3 DPS teams were able to burst us down.

There were two problems that we kept running into. First, if I poped or was discovered early on, they focused me and stun lock/killed me even with burning evasion and/or vanish with/in the first minute of the game. So then we tried to back off some and have the warrior (NE so he was staying stealthed) charge out and be targeted first. The problem with that strat is that then teams seemed to burn the warrior down before I could even get over to him (sometime he was halfway across the arena and non sub stealth is slow as hell). Is it just coordination? I have over 10k health and 277 resil and was still going down fast, should I try a different spec? Should my team play a different type of strat than the burst that we were trying to play, maybe an outlast strat? Anyone else play a team like this? I'm used to playing 2s with the resto druid so those are definitely outlast matches, but I'm not at all sure how to add in another DPS in particular an MS war.

Of course you should play outlast, you can put out tons of damage, have 2 mortal strikes, have a slippery healer and have 2 x dpsers without mana.... duh :P

Has anyone found a reliable way to beat hunter/druid as disc priest/combat mace rogue?

I was aiming for ~2100 this week, up from 2010, but we came up against this team 5 times and only beat them twice, totally ruining my chances. One of those victories was more due to luck than anything else, minimal entrapment procs, and vile doing a fantastic job of keeping wound on the hunter.

The other victory, i don't know really. My priest managed to kill the pet by dragging it out of los of the druid and wanding it down while i forced the druid to stay healing the hunter. Priest then drank to full while I stopped hunter from ressing his pet, came out and manaburned hunter to 0 and then we both just stuck to him so he couldn't shoot us. They left rather than put up any fight at that point. We stopped queueing since we'd hit 10 games played after that one, and couldn't be bothered with more long games where we're more likely to lose (I prefer fighting double dps, at least the fights are fast and intense :P). I doubt that tactic will work again if they're smart with the pet (hunter never called it back), so i'm at a loss as to what to do in future :/