[Rogue] PVP Stat Standards/advice - Page 46

sargsui · 01/31/08, 12:53 PM

What is a good mace build for a rogue and what would the attack rotation be

Hehe, everyone loves going mace spec on their rogue alts. Also, there is no "attack rotation"

As Tower said a few posts up, 11/50/0 and 11/43/7 are the best 2v2 specs. ShS is still better than AR/Prep in 3s and 5s.

Grunge · 01/31/08, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by x1tiger1x

Quick trinket selection question...

Out of these three which one would work better in a rogue/rogue SHS team for a DPS trinket: Tsunami Talisman, BB, DST. Hit rating will not be an issue when I get a few pieces of S3 and is currently 86 with the TT equipped. My crit is 32.40%, however, my AP is currently only 1608, and I figure AP is more favorable versus high resilience targets. Should I stick with TT because of its proc or should I switch to the passive attack power of DST or BB and choose between the 20.6% haste proc or the on use 278 AP?

I would go with TT tbh, there's never enough hit and the extra crit is very nice as well. BB isn't that good since as ShS you can't really coordinate "burst" by combining it with other cooldowns such as CB or AR, etc. DST is just smeh. 45s internal cooldown really killed it for pvp.

roosevelt · 01/31/08, 1:42 PM

DST only has a 20 sec cooldown. I actually think it's pretty great for pvp, both for piling on white damage and poison procs.

Tower · 01/31/08, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by Shadowed

The fact that Rogues (in BG10 at least) don't typically have Vile Poisons makes arenas a lot easier, even if they try and burst me the 3-4 seconds I can get away is enough to reduce the Wound Poison stack while getting a fair bit of health back from HoTs, same with healing my team mate.

If you let a Druid keep you from getting past 1-2 stacks of Wound Poison then it probably won't matter, but once you get 3+ stacks with a 40% resist rate it's far harder to get down, if you were using Deadly Poison on top of it I doubt I could get it off easily without burning through a lot of mana.

Problem is getting Vile Poisons is a hefty investment in Assassination for any non mutilate builds, and for 5/5 you really don't get that much resist power versus other classes debuff/buff dispel resists. It honestly should be 3/3 max, or they should combine the effects of Vile and Imp for a 5/5 investment - this is a particularly important buff needed for Mutilate.

While keeping poisons up is important, mobility and dps problems are plagueing the class a lot worse. Things like Disarm, Blade Twisting for Combat and more offensive talents for Shadowstep give you more of an edge than Vile Poisons (again, non mutilate). Sure, I'd love to have them, but I can protect my debuffs somewhat by shiving with separate offhands and ignoring Vile, while picking up other very necessary talents I could not find a workaround to gain their power.

Sure do hope they nerf that Abolish Poison though! ^_^

Shadowed · 01/31/08, 2:13 PM

Originally Posted by Tower

Problem is getting Vile Poisons is a hefty investment in Assassination for any non mutilate builds, and for 5/5 you really don't get that much resist power versus other classes debuff/buff dispel resists. It honestly should be 3/3 max, or they should combine the effects of Vile and Imp for a 5/5 investment - this is a particularly important buff needed for Mutilate.

While keeping poisons up is important, mobility and dps problems are plagueing the class a lot worse. Things like Disarm, Blade Twisting for Combat and more offensive talents for Shadowstep give you more of an edge than Vile Poisons (again, non mutilate). Sure, I'd love to have them, but I can protect my debuffs somewhat by shiving with separate offhands and ignoring Vile, while picking up other very necessary talents I could not find a workaround to gain their power.

Sure do hope they nerf that Abolish Poison though! ^_^

Rogues have the best passive dispel resistant talent by the way, looking through the talents on WoWHead everyone else gets 30% for 5 points (Priests get 20% for 5, Paladins get 30% for 2), or nothing at all. So it's not exactly like it's an underpowered talent compared to everyone else, it's just not something you can get easily if you're not Mutilate.

Grunge · 01/31/08, 2:35 PM

Originally Posted by Shadowed

Rogues have the best passive dispel resistant talent by the way, looking through the talents on WoWHead everyone else gets 30% for 5 points (Priests get 20% for 5, Paladins get 30% for 2), or nothing at all. So it's not exactly like it's an underpowered talent compared to everyone else, it's just not something you can get easily if you're not Mutilate.

I'd have to disagree. You can't really look at it from that angle since those classes don't require those buffs in order to be viable. Sure having your MotW, BoF or whatnot dispelled isn't nice but not being able to keep up wound or keep on crippling is quite devastating for a rogue.

Another very annoying thing is that Deadly Throw is removed when Crippling procs, but I guess it's true for most abilities like that.

Sure wish that my main damage ability would also apply physical non-dispelable wound poison debuff and my crippling would be unremovable (other than by snare remove abilites/trinket) as well.
Oh right...

Shadowed · 01/31/08, 3:17 PM

[edit] Actually, I'm not going to get into this at all.

Mackabre · 01/31/08, 5:57 PM

Originally Posted by Shadowed

Rogues have the best passive dispel resistant talent by the way, looking through the talents on WoWHead everyone else gets 30% for 5 points (Priests get 20% for 5, Paladins get 30% for 2), or nothing at all. So it's not exactly like it's an underpowered talent compared to everyone else, it's just not something you can get easily if you're not Mutilate.

It would've been fine if there wasn't a talent like Abolish Poison. There aren't spells like Abolish magic to get rid of buffs over times. Being able to cast a spell that removes our poisons every 2 seconds so they can go do other stuff is huge.

Tower · 01/31/08, 6:17 PM

Originally Posted by Mackabre

It would've been fine if there wasn't a talent like Abolish Poison. There aren't spells like Abolish magic to get rid of buffs over times. Being able to cast a spell that removes our poisons every 2 seconds so they can go do other stuff is huge.

This is pretty much it. For one, we can't shiv on every global cooldown to apply poison like you would a debuff to make it "stick", energy regen isn't fast enough. And there's no other spell like Abolish that sticks on a target and re-dispels over and over during its duration, as far as I know. Imagine if priests had an Abolish magic that did the same thing but for magic abilities, you would see a lot less warlocks in small arenas. If Abolish manages to clear a target of all poisons, shiving them during ticks will result in direct resists of poison applications - its incredibly debilitating to a rogue's dps, and ability to stay in melee range, which is the single biggest problem with rogues and arena (and one of the huge reasons warriors with 15s intercept are so dominant in all arenas).

Hildegard · 01/31/08, 7:29 PM

Originally Posted by berzerked

When you are going toe to toe with a war/rogue/hunter your damage output starts to drop dramaticly, because just one snare/stun/root/aoe_fear that you didn't anticipate will make it really hard for you stay on your targets back. I've had cases where my druid would root the war, and I got rooted in return.. so for about 4 second the war and I are just trading blows... except I'm shiving because I'm rooted

#.

The roots usually don't stay up for long enough to completly fill the energy bar. I tend to use Slice and Dice or Rupture or Solarplexus, or switch offhand-daggers to apply some deadly... Especially since mace stuns are much less common in season 3 daggers can shine in my humble opinion. Snares are also less of problem, except frost trap, as I still walk fast enough with side steps to hit with mutilate.

Maybe the opponents on my rating are far worse in controlling their character movement, but at the moment I love it. So I keep my daggers until I know more details about 2.4, which may again switch the flavor of the month weapon for rogues.

Tower · 01/31/08, 7:34 PM

Yeah, holding off on buying daggers for mutilate until I see what's going down for 2.4. Probably wise...

Aciara · 02/01/08, 4:26 AM

Originally Posted by Grunge

I'd have to disagree. You can't really look at it from that angle since those classes don't require those buffs in order to be viable. Sure having your MotW, BoF or whatnot dispelled isn't nice but not being able to keep up wound or keep on crippling is quite devastating for a rogue.

Maybe it would be along the lines of a druids hots (his only real healing capability in arena) being dispelled? For which we pay 5 points to get 30%. Also abolish only ticks every 3 seconds, not every 2. Which means you have 3 seconds to reaply that poison, and with a 1.5 speed offhand shiv only costs 34 enery which means you do have enough energie to always reshiv if you don't use your energie for something else.

Just thought I'd clear that up, whilst reading up on my rogue twink

.

Depry · 02/01/08, 4:50 AM

Originally Posted by Aciara

Also abolish only ticks every 3 seconds, not every 2.

Wrong.

Abolish Poison - Spells - World of Warcraft

Attempts to cure 1 poison effect on the target, and 1 more poison effect every 2 seconds for 8 sec.

Vanadi · 02/01/08, 5:24 AM

Originally Posted by Aciara

Maybe it would be along the lines of a druids hots (his only real healing capability in arena) being dispelled? For which we pay 5 points to get 30%. Also abolish only ticks every 3 seconds, not every 2. Which means you have 3 seconds to reaply that poison, and with a 1.5 speed offhand shiv only costs 34 enery which means you do have enough energie to always reshiv if you don't use your energie for something else.

Just thought I'd clear that up, whilst reading up on my rogue twink

.

Except in the case of lifebloom being dispelled it makes it proc te final healing value straight away so there is a downside to just blindly dispelling druid hots. There is no downside at all to dispelling poisons.

Tower · 02/01/08, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Aciara

Maybe it would be along the lines of a druids hots (his only real healing capability in arena) being dispelled? For which we pay 5 points to get 30%. Also abolish only ticks every 3 seconds, not every 2. Which means you have 3 seconds to reaply that poison, and with a 1.5 speed offhand shiv only costs 34 enery which means you do have enough energie to always reshiv if you don't use your energie for something else.

Just thought I'd clear that up, whilst reading up on my rogue twink

.

Yeeaaaaahhhhh. It ticks every 2s, you gain 20 energy every 2s. So if you remove a poison every 2s, and I shiv one on every 4s (2s/20e+2s/20e) then it's kinda hard to keep up. Don't think I've ever won a game where all I did was shiv, and I've never won a game without poisons being up... Throw in snares, resists and other CC - and abolish is straight up a rogue ruiner.

Macblade · 02/01/08, 3:29 PM

Originally Posted by Vanadi

Except in the case of lifebloom being dispelled it makes it proc te final healing value straight away so there is a downside to just blindly dispelling druid hots. There is no downside at all to dispelling poisons.

That would be an interesting poison to add to the rogue arsenal though, something along the lines of the warloc dot that did damage to the dispeller. That and some sort of mana drain over time or mana burn on proc. Go go Bliz petition.

Pentamorfi · 02/01/08, 10:28 PM

Quick question, I was looking for a macro that would cast Cheap Shot and immediately turn off your attacks. /cast Cheap Shot /stopattack didn't do what I wanted it to, any idea what the correct macro should look like?

PJM · 02/03/08, 3:57 AM

After taking a break from the game I am rolling a rogue. I plan to devote my time to PvP and ten mans. Just how bad am I gimping myself by rolling a Blood Elf? While I understand WoTF to be extremely powerful, just how bad/good is the AT silence specifically in the higher end arena play? Might just force myself to go Undead, but the tattered clothes look is getting old and BE female animations are superb. Looking forward to trying out the RMP combo in the arena.

Grunge · 02/03/08, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by PJM

After taking a break from the game I am rolling a rogue. I plan to devote my time to PvP and ten mans. Just how bad am I gimping myself by rolling a Blood Elf? While I understand WoTF to be extremely powerful, just how bad/good is the AT silence specifically in the higher end arena play? Might just force myself to go Undead, but the tattered clothes look is getting old and BE female animations are superb. Looking forward to trying out the RMP combo in the arena.

Well the problem with Blood elves is that the aoe silence is situational at best. I would in 5's for no reason trade away wotf. In 2v2 and 3v3 I'd prefer Human for Perception though since there getting the initial sap is really nice headstart.
+ Nothing beats female UD eviscerate.

ekval · 02/03/08, 9:44 PM

I've been spinning around specs again on drawboard. What is so powerful in ShS builds compared to 30/0/31 spec? I mean it comes down Cheat Death vs Quick Recovery, SealFate vs Sinister Calling and Shadowstep vs FleetFooted + Coldblood.
QR > CD, SF > SC, Shadowstep in my opinion isn't that useful except against mages. The 20% damage increase buff on ShS is just joke because you don't have any burst at all, and the sprint effect doesn't help if you happen to shadowstep while rooted/enemy is moving. And I'm talking about situation where player has access to T6 trinket and decent critrate (~30-35%) so SF will become more powerful than SC.

After playing around with spreadsheet (with some PvP adjustments) I found out that 1x/0/4x ShS specs do almost equal damage compared to full combat variations (1x/4x/0). Is there any point going full combat now days except for mace stun? The mobility is totally awful compared to anything with Fleet Footed or ShS.

I found out Seijim playing as 30/31/0 SF/SS spec with Glaives, anyone really tried that spec or does is it simply suck too much? Trying to figure out why it isn't popular compared to full combat or 3x/0/3x specs, is it because 40e SS compared to 35e Hemo? Comparing 30/31/0 to 1x/4x/0 full combat it comes down to Fleet Footed vs Aggression, Quick Recovery vs Nerves of Steel, Cold blood vs Surprise Attacks and Seal Fate vs Combat Potency.
With some thinking we could rank talents FF > Aggression, QR > NoS, SA > CB (except for burst) and SF = CP. Combat Potency seems awfully weak in PvP due low hit rating, and with T6 trinket and 30% > crit Seal Fate should pull ahead? Fleet Footed would also help with mobility that full combat specs quite much lack. While I admit SA is really nice against dodging rogues and the 10% SS damage boost is nice, combining CB with AR can be quite neat also.

Is the problem between 30/31/0 and 30/0/31 builds the special attack (SS vs Hemo)? Energy cost benefit goes for Hemo and so does the damage considering untalented SS vs Hemorrhage. There are some utility talents on both trees (Sub vs Combat) like Stealth talents, Dirty Tricks, Imp. Gouge and Blade Twisting etc but on dps side it comes down to Precision, Dualwield Spec, Sword Spec (or mace) vs Serrated Blades, Dirty Deeds and Deadliness. One could add Blade Flurry and WEx in favor for 30/31/0, and about AR vs Premeditation we probably don't need to even discuss.

In nutshell, why no one plays 30/31/0 spec instead of 30/0/31? Or why no one plays 30/0/31 spec over Shadowstep variants in first place? After testing whole alot different ShS variants with PvP and PvE gear, and still finding the damage output quite weak, I'm again searching for spec that would work for me. Is Shadowstep really that good or are people just jumping in "bandwagon"? I have no idea what spec to start playing with my disc priest in 2v2, nor in 3v3 with RMP.

sargsui · 02/04/08, 4:29 AM

It's really too bad that in order to make the interesting specs work you need BT level pve gear. Glaives are nice but the ashtongue trink just opens up so many new spec possibilities. Bad pvp itemization, it's irritating.

Sniddie · 02/04/08, 5:39 AM

Originally Posted by ekval

Is the problem between 30/31/0 and 30/0/31 builds the special attack (SS vs Hemo)? Energy cost benefit goes for Hemo and so does the damage considering untalented SS vs Hemorrhage. There are some utility talents on both trees (Sub vs Combat) like Stealth talents, Dirty Tricks, Imp. Gouge and Blade Twisting etc but on dps side it comes down to Precision, Dualwield Spec, Sword Spec (or mace) vs Serrated Blades, Dirty Deeds and Deadliness. One could add Blade Flurry and WEx in favor for 30/31/0, and about AR vs Premeditation we probably don't need to even discuss.

In nutshell, why no one plays 30/31/0 spec instead of 30/0/31? Or why no one plays 30/0/31 spec over Shadowstep variants in first place? After testing whole alot different ShS variants with PvP and PvE gear, and still finding the damage output quite weak, I'm again searching for spec that would work for me. Is Shadowstep really that good or are people just jumping in "bandwagon"? I have no idea what spec to start playing with my disc priest in 2v2, nor in 3v3 with RMP.

I've been testing most specs out for my 3v3 (Rogue/Warrior/Druid), and settled with 30/0/31 over all others, only Mutilate came close really. So now ive gemmed for as much crit/ap as possible, currently at 33.77% crit unbuffed, ~40.25% crit with trinket up. 30/31/0 didnt work very well at all, never got saps of, blinds much harder to get in, no hemo debuff, and no preparation makes me feel really weak. Shadowstep was okay, very good at shutting down mages, but i couldn't put up enough pressure on other classes (Warlocks/Warriors/Priests etc), so i went with my current spec instead, and its working out alot better, even in twos.

ekval · 02/04/08, 5:55 AM

Originally Posted by Sniddie

I've been testing most specs out for my 3v3 (Rogue/Warrior/Druid), and settled with 30/0/31 over all others, only Mutilate came close really. So now ive gemmed for as much crit/ap as possible, currently at 33.77% crit unbuffed, ~40.25% crit with trinket up. 30/31/0 didnt work very well at all, never got saps of, blinds much harder to get in, no hemo debuff, and no preparation makes me feel really weak. Shadowstep was okay, very good at shutting down mages, but i couldn't put up enough pressure on other classes (Warlocks/Warriors/Priests etc), so i went with my current spec instead, and its working out alot better, even in twos.

Thanks for reply, I got the same feelings and am really going for SF/Hemo once again probably with some more time on it. Mutilate was decent when I played it but I really think Blizzard should do something to either poison requirement or combine poison talents, it's frustrating that you need to use 8-12 talent points for poison to make it fully work. And if you go full poison talents you don't have points to go for DPS talents (SB / DWS) so the damage output is quite awful.

Yes, Shadowstep is awesome against mages but it just feels almost same as 5x/0/x Mutilate, it doesn't have enough pressure power to make enemy go in defensive, nor it has enough burst to make differences in matches. So I will probably try SF/Hemo after all (glad I have my T6 trinket), in theory it should work pretty well with my Disc priest mate. We'll see.

Sniddie · 02/04/08, 6:22 AM

Originally Posted by ekval

Thanks for reply, I got the same feelings and am really going for SF/Hemo once again probably with some more time on it. Mutilate was decent when I played it but I really think Blizzard should do something to either poison requirement or combine poison talents, it's frustrating that you need to use 8-12 talent points for poison to make it fully work. And if you go full poison talents you don't have points to go for DPS talents (SB / DWS) so the damage output is quite awful.

Yes, Shadowstep is awesome against mages but it just feels almost same as 5x/0/x Mutilate, it doesn't have enough pressure power to make enemy go in defensive, nor it has enough burst to make differences in matches. So I will probably try SF/Hemo after all (glad I have my T6 trinket), in theory it should work pretty well with my Disc priest mate. We'll see.

If i was speccing purely for 2v2, i think i would go some kind of combat variant though, although not saying SF/Hemo is worthless.

ekval · 02/04/08, 7:10 AM

Originally Posted by Sniddie

If i was speccing purely for 2v2, i think i would go some kind of combat variant though, although not saying SF/Hemo is worthless.

Combat Maces would probably be decent, but I bought S3 swords already so it's not option. I've tried with Combat Sword spec but when I play that with my disc priest, firstly, I hardly can keep EA up on my target which is huge factor. Secondly, I don't have control of the game or my target at all as swords, I can KS now and then but thats it. Agree, with maces it would be alot easier. I'm also speccing for my RMP 3v3 team so Combat is no no for that.

Other thing is QR which is really huge when playing with priest due their lack of efficiency compared to druids. It is just so big difference. Like I said earlier I don't see much point going for full combat except if you go for mace specialization. Without mace spec combat is like ShS without the mobility.

I should in theory have better chances tanking warriors with 30/0/31 and I do have more rootbreakers than non combat Mutilate. Still wondering why people don't play SF/Hemo if they have access for T6 trinket over ShS.