One of the reasons may be mobility, depending on your setup and such. Shadowstep still is good mobility over the other specs, although its hard to pressure the opponents into defensive, so its kind of moot. Whenever im up against a Shadowstep rogue on my druid, i don't have to bother kiting cause he can never kill me alone, even if i go oom i can keep myself up indefinably, and im only in 2/5 vengeful and 3 gladiators, full honor gear.

I don't really agree with combat being only for maces, deep combat with Swords is excellent against our hard matchups, especially if you have some more T6 equivalent gear. And it's still good enough for the other better matchups.

Is this truly the case? I'm having a hard time believing that a ShS rogue with vile poisons in a mixture of PvE and PvP gear is going to be so easy to ignore compared to a non-prep, non-fleet footed full combat rogue.

Tried 30/0/31 spec and well, it feels weak, weaker than I remembered or thought it would. Problem probably lies in nerfed 110% Hemo damage. SF is also so stupidly random that that you cant rely on it at all except with Mutilate, which leaves me again with Shadowstep build.

Problem with combat swords is mostly the hitrating in PvP situations. Damage output with combat swords is lackluster when you are playing with Precision + 100-140hr, your extra attacks will miss and Combat Potency rarely procs. If you put ShS vs Combat Swords in spreadsheet with PvP gear the damage difference is really really minimal. So I would still stand behind my words and say full combat is only worth if you are going for mace spec.

I feel like I'm left with no decent spec to go for at this moment, everything seems lacking the pressure power of AR/Prep. Should I just focus on ShS and learn to live with it or is there any better solution for 2v2 and 3v3?

I guess its just a matter of opinion. But your "SF is also so stupidly random that that you cant rely on it at all except with Mutilate" quote is all strange. If you just compare the combo point per energy, SF/hemo has better combopoint generation then mutilate, considering setup,premed & initiative. Mutilate gives you two combo points for 60 energy, SF/Hemo give you two combo points for 70 energy, if one of those attacks crit, both specs give you three combo points. However if both attacks crit, SF/hemo gives you 4 combo points and Mutilate still gives you 3.

SF is not "stupidly random", its exactly what it is, and its not worse for Hemo then for Mutilate.

And from a druids point of view, PvP geared rogues with Shadowstep is really low pressure, i don't even have to use Abolish, i can keep myself topped up with just 3 Lifebloom stacks, if the rogue has to spend energy on kick/gouge Cyclone/Roots.

Mutilate only needs one hand crit to get 3CP which almost doubles the chance for SF proc. Non critting Mutilate still gives 2CP which is better than 2x noncritting Hemos. Getting double crits in row with SF/Hemo is rare, and random compared to one hand crit Mutilates which gives 3CP.

You can easiest test this by trying to maintain 4+ s/4+ r cycle with both SF/Hemo and Sub Mutilate (either of the specs have Imp. SnD). It is impossible with SF/Hemo but fairly maintainable with Mutilate one because of more consistent CP generation. This is the randomness I talk about.

The biggest issue still probably lies in weak Hemo damage without Sinister Calling. It just sad to see that there ain't really any decent PvP spec for rogue at this moment.

Shadowstep isn't what AR/prep was, but it's probably the best 3v3 spec there is, and 3v3 still remains the most balanced arena for rogues in my opinion. With some hopeful tuning of druid/lock/war in 2.4, and maybe a small buff to rogues, it could be a really great spec. It kinda sucks when the class is getting so cornered we have to choose a spec, which automatically chooses who we can partner with in arena, on a smaller scale than normal.

ShS with disc priest, like I've posted before, is just shit. YOu can't control dps , unless its a mage (and how often do you see them?) and you can't murder a healer faster than a warrior or hunter is going to murder your priest.

30/31 is just ugh, why? Once again, what do you do that a warrior doesn't do better? SF is still a junk investment of 5 points after resilience is calculated, the utility of end Combat is much more valuable than mid-tier Assassination. Don't forget, 30/0/31 got nerfed just like AR/prep, with Hemos hitting for a lot less (but using their own debuffs). I have a feeling the few rogues running 30/0/31 would have just as much success, if not more, running combat maces or mutilate in smaller brackets.

Until they make Seal Fate ignore resilience, I just don't see it working for anything but Mutilate. Yes, I understand the CP generation comparion between Mut/SF and Hemo/SF. But mut still hits harder, for less energy - which is what burst is all about when you throw in Find Weakness and Imp Kidney.

Here's to hoping for 1-2 great rogue changes announced this week.

Having switched from mutilate to ShS I agree on the poison talents. 5x/x/x vs 17/0/44, I would say that ShS actually has better damage from the get go.

Well what gear did you use? I run with 245 resi and some VERY pve heavy gear options.
If you have access to Lethality, chances are that you can grab 2pc t6 (helm/chest, helm/pants, chest/pants are decent combos.
Although it will probably take a while to get 2nd chest and pants for most...). I picked up second set of chest/pants because I wanted different enchants but I guess one can get away with using pve enchants as well.
I'm seeing 2k hemo crits on ea'd targets/1.5 white etc. 37% crit is also quite ouch.


Whenever a druid goes oom we usually swap to them (to prevent drinking as well) and more often than not I simply rape them. The case is probably that not many have access to t6 gear.

It's shit with full pvp gear, it's very viable 2.2k rating team with pve gear. Silly tbh =/
What I find really annoying is the shadwostep/prep bug. Where you get OOR errors unless you manage to somehow get into stealth.

I agree 30/31 is just wtf, I'd guess even qr/combat might be better paired with a healer.

Thing with mutilate is that it's not hard to lock you down.
If you look at top rogues in Cyclone, the one from Avada Kedavre is ShS, Xom went deep combat (last I checked)...
Mutilate is just too smeh in 5v5 =/ especially with the current fotm teams.

I was mostly running with 4/5 T6 with S3 gloves. While it was good in RMP mirror matches which comes down who can gib enemy mage faster, I can't seem to put enough pressure on other targets (warrior, druid, shaman).

Biggest turn off for ShS was how it doesn't work with my disc priest in 2v2. I'm most likely dropping whole 3v3 bracket and playing only 2v2 for fun or so, which brings me the question again: What spec to play with disc priest in 2v2 if I have S3 swords and not maces? I know combat maces is probably the spec to go but I can't switch my maces anymore and it will take time to obtain other pair of weapons.

[quote=Grunge;625082]
It's shit with full pvp gear, it's very viable 2.2k rating team with pve gear. Silly tbh =/
What I find really annoying is the shadwostep/prep bug. Where you get OOR errors unless you manage to somehow get into stealth.
[quote]

SHS is viable with PVP gear. I did 2 days of rog/rog with only 67 games played in a suit of S1 gear / PVP gear with a PVE ring/trinket and we managed to break 2k. Although, I will say that gemming for attack power with S3 is a fair balance of stats in my opinion.

If you plan on playing alot of 2v2 or 3v3 you should seriously consider forcing yourself to go Undead. Arcane Torrent may sound intriguing but it's not as good as WoTF and arguably Hardiness. Yes it gives you an AoE silence, but as a rogue you have many tools already to combat enemy spells. If you wish to silence a target other than what you are directing attacking, your enemies must be in very close proximity (8 yard range) and like almost every other spell in game it can be resisted.

You cannot strongly argue for the energy return from Mana Tap either because: (A) It's a magic buff and therefore easily dispelled, (B) requires 90 seconds of setup to take full advantage, (C) even if you have 3 charges stored there are very few opportunities to use it efficiently. When you use Arcane Torrent it invokes your GCD and therefore you are going to gain 50 energy before you can use any abilities (30 from Mana Tap charges and 20 from normal regeneration). Even if you have 120 energy (4piece Arena bonus & Vigor) you have to be under 70 energy to take full advantage of the return. Anything above and you are wasting energy. At this point you could use Arcane Torrent as a weak Thistle Tea to simply gain an extra 30 energy or you can try to wait for a more ideal time to make use of its silence. However, finding yourself under 70 energy with 3 charges while fighting a caster or within 8 yards of one to make efficient use of both the energy return and silence happens once or twice every blue moon.

Only other use for Arcane Torrent outside of its silence is to break the stealth of an approaching enemy rogue or druid while attacking another opponent. I would say about 85% of the time their Alpha will still land as most rogues/druids will make their move quickly when in close and server lag will delay the silence from popping them out of stealth.

You can also use Mana Tap to keep casters in combat (30 yard range) however you put yourself in combat and must have LoS.

The only exception of which Blood Elf rogue might be better than Undead would be for an all dps team like a spriest/rogue. If well coordinated, you could time the silences to prevent a caster from getting any spells off and use fearward to make up for the lack of WoTF. It's a very situational argument and in no way would crack Undead from the top spot of preferred race for arena.

Mmm, well the problem with 4/5 T6 is that you don't get 2pc s3 which is a free +35 resilience you're not getting. I haven't run the math on the +6% hemo damage but stat wise there's no competition.

Starting at a 3/5 s3 (as I don't have helm or chest since I took 2nd pair of weapons) and using Cursed Vision+T6chest w/15resi enchant I have the following stats:
1858ap, 143hit, 35.90%crit, 29.46%dodge, 359 resilience.
Dropping Cursed Vision and s3 shoulders/pants for T6 Shoulders/T6 Leggins(w/clefthoof and 5agi/7sta) I'd get:
1973, 131hit, 35.88%crit, 30.06%dodge, 256 resilience(!).

The upgrade I'd say is VERY minimal you do gain some extra armor reduction but there are other items that can offer that at a cheaper cost, and I for one can't really afford to swap out more, since as a personal preference I tend to not go below 240 resilience.
However dropping T6 shoulders and swapping in Cursed Vision (Since we can't get 4pc anyway anymore):
1963, 128hit, 37.49%(!)crit, 31.01%dodge, 319 resilience(!)

Crit, Dodge and Resilience wise it's quite a upgrade. However since s2 ring is quite awful I almost always swap in Ring of Deceitful Intent as well (Which is very nice for pvp due to it's high stamina and nice dps stats).
Agility Synergizes well with Sinister Calling (One of the reasons I dislike Illidan ring and use Signet of Primal Wrath often as I can, to drop the s3 ring as well), not to mention the huge amount of dodge the 49(57+15%) agility gives.

Thus I usually swap in Primal Wrath/Deceitful Intent and and a pair of Shadowmaster's Boots with Cat's Swiftness:
Final stats end up being:
2106, 152hit, 36.99%crit, 34.26%dodge(!), 245 resilience This is for 2v2.

For 3v3 I prefer to swap in 1-3 pvp pieces, (s3 ring, boots, s2 ring) depending on how secure I feel.

I guess this got a bit long but it's a fairly clear example on how using no more than 2pc t6 is much better than going for 4piece.
Should I use 4pc S3 I'd preferably skip chest (since you can get a 15 resilience enchant there that offsets the resilience loss a bit if you have a 2nd chest).
Also you can use a different metagem in this case (unless you're lucky with Cursed Visions, we for one have still 3 for "mainspec's" to go and I'm assuming 2.4 will be on ptr before a month.).

Well first off 2k is really subjective and depends on the battlegroup.
For one I think Blackout's has lost most of our good pvp'ers to the Cyclone craze and there's only a few good teams left here. I actually played double ShS rogue (which isn't as good since the other rogue only had t5 equivalent gear) to 1900's which was a lot of fun.
In this setup I think ShS+Mutilate or ShS+Combat or perhaps ShS+HARP(even in it's nerfed state) is quite decent.
I guess I should've gone a bit more in-depth in my explanation, for me when I tried heavy resilience gear it felt like I had no pressure on the other team, also as much of t6/equivalent gear is very agility heavy, you end up with considerably more dodge which helps again Outlasting Warrior/Druid.

I actually FEEL I can go toe-to-toe with warriors (even without a healer backing me up, ie 1v1), as ~55% avoidance with Ghostly is quite impressive. If I have evasion up it's not even a competition. Lucky macestuns can still make ones life quite hard but it's manageable.
Not to mention that having played only for a week in this spec, I feel that Cheat Death is godlike and it has saved me on countless occasions. ^^

PvE gear strikes again -_-

Maybe they should just make resilience into a useful PvE stat and call it a day. That way it doesn't matter whether you heavily PvP or PvE, you'll have great gear for both! :P

Hi all,

I play with a Holy Pala in the 2v2 bracket. I know it is a bad matchup but it is my friend so we stick to that. I am currently 0/31/30 but we are having difficulties with any group with a priest due to the mana burn. Do you have any suggestions except for switching partner :-)?

Chipix

Go deep combat instead, or like many said, Shadowstep if you have access to some T6 equivs.

0/31/30 doesn't really cut anymore, unfortunatly. It has weak combo point generation and weak hemos.

Let's all hope there's something great for rogues upcoming, cause right now its just a matter of which is less weakest spec, and only if you have access to T6 gear.

Heyhey,

So I am in a dilemma. Should I gem AP or Agility for pvp? I am using a 20/0/41 spec, not planning to change it to any non ShS spec any time soon.

AP gemming gives me:
- 114.4 AP
- +0.89% crit

While Agi gives:
- +66 AP
- +1.65% crit
- +1.14% hit rating
- bit above 3% dodge.
-120 armor, which isnt much, but it is noticeable tbh. It's like the cloak enchant.

Anyway. I find myself severly lacking damage at the moment, but on the other hand, the defence increase is not a bad one at all. Plus someone in full PvP armor could use the +hit.

What do you think?

I'm sorry, why do you end up with more hit rating from the agility gemming? Is it because of 4 agi/4 hit gems?

I think you'll find it to your liking to use the [.item] [./item] tags, without the periods of course. That way you can just make it a [Bright Living Ruby].

I have decided to make a concerted effort towards S3 weapons and maybe shoulders so I'm trying to learn as much as possible. There is a large amount of assumed information on these forums so I'm hoping to get a little clarity overall.

My current 2v2 partner is a MS Warrior. We don't have a lot of team time together yet so bad match ups haven't been determined. I think Pally/War will generally be tough, anything else that anyone foresees being a problem?

There is a sticky post concerning PvE for rogues where the writer discusses gems, enchants, and the value of certain stats to a build. He claims that stats such as Agility and Hit Rating etc, translate into more damage than equal amounts of Attack Power when pertaining to certain builds. His primary build of traditional combat shows 1 point of Agility equates to 2 AP when calculating DPS. Does this hold true for PvP?

Is it generally agreed upon pre 2.4 that Deep Combat (Maces strongly suggested) and ShS (17/0/44) are considered the top two builds for PvP? I've been wanting to play around more w/ the Assassination tree past 16 but I'm failing to see strength in many of the talents. I hear many people recommend VP, FF, and QR. I would like to read some arguments concerning those talents.

I really don't have much access yet to Tier 6 gear. I have been told that Combat builds really pull away from the rest as you get Tier 5 (4pc) and Tier 6. Much of the above posts talk about mixing Tier gear w/ PvP gear. How strongly recommended is that, what are the pros and cons?

I guess ultimately what I'm looking for is for someone to do/maintain a sticky for PvP on this sight much like the VERY helpful PvE that exists. I understand that PvP is very dynamic, based on team makeup, format etc, but explaining that QR or VP are essential for X builds and all the other finer points of various builds would be really helpful. If anyone wants to take a risk and make such a post that would be awesome. If not, then I'll just keep asking questions that come up as I read along.

I hope these questions don't get me shunned.

Warriors do not work well without healers.

There are a couple warrior/warlock combos that have gotten to 2100+. But yeah I can't imagine warrior/dps would be an easy combo to play. Probably best to find a druid, priest, mage or lock.

People are so lucky with their pve gear access. =(





I'm 20/0/41 atm, I can't shy away from VP. It's so good against poison dispellers, which 3/4 healing classes can do. In the upper bracket of 2's and 3's, a lot of druid teams so with VP it's a bit easier to deal with. PRM 3's, we have priest dispel the abolish too to further put more dispelling/healing pressure on druid.

I really don't believe you need pve gear to succeed with shs variant builds. Take a look at sk-gaming (SK Gaming | World of Warcraft Arena Ranking). Yes, you will see some high rated players with pve gear, but there are plenty over 2k rating with just pvp gear. I will definitely be replacing my pve gear for vengeful as I get the points.

I agree with Mackabre, vile poisons does help a lot. If they are changing shaman poison cleansing totem as currently rumored, it will end up being more useful than before when we get lazy on totem bashing. It's already pretty useful as it stands. I have to admit though, I really do miss imp ea after speccing vp (20 0 41), and I'm too old fashioned to spec out of Lethality for it ;P.