They overlap. If you get a mace proc just as you start a CS or a KS you just won't notice it, if its near the end its just an extension to your stun. If you're going ShS it doesn't really matter which you go with, but maces are better if you forsee yourself ever going combat for pvp.

Well RRD isn't anywhere the strength of RWaD, but it's close enough. 2k material depending on skill.

About FotM, I've had great success with a hunter instead of the lock. vs RMWlP+shaman or druid. At first it was hard since our hunter got splattered during Bloodlusts, but then we came up with a split tactic. Our Hunter on their Mage, me and Mage on warlock. Our Mage or me swap to anything that's close to us when the warlock gets PS, once it's over we go back. Main thing is to keep the pressure on at all times.
For that matter we hit 2306 (up 199 rating from last week). Although I'm not sure if it's worth anything anymore as Blackout is a "inferior" bg.
"Transfer to Cyclone or gtfo" :'D

About enveloping, I meant it to be swapped with MoS somehow lost that word there. And mainly I meant it from a offensive point of view.
I was using 17/0/44 until today and it's really great when you resist nova/piercinghowl/howl of terror/freezing(or err frost trap, I'm not sure which one I've resisted)/priestfear/warstomp. It's imo helped me won a few games. I guess I liked it a lot since I was mutilate for a long time with FoF and Surefooted/Meta, and I'm used to resisting a lot of novas. Then again mobility is non-issue with shs so yeah.

I'm starting to lean towards Vile Poisons though, it's more consistent poisons especially against druid matchups.
I've sometimes felt that wound wasn't up enough, but since I play with a hunter I can often call in a aimed, but Aimed is less damage from the hunter so...

I'm just thinking if it's worth putting another point in EA or not. 3/5 Lethality and I definitely didn't feel any "loss" of damage. Crit hemo's are quite a rarity especially against high-resilience warlocks.

Hmm well as undead and when I played with a druid (note that I was mutilate at the time) we focused warlock until druid got low on mana, then swapped to druid and burned him.
My druid helping me with timely feral charges and such to catch him. This usually meant that the druid would go oom and die. I'm not sure about which tactic I would use as shs though. Killing pet might be a option if you get the initial sap on the warlock (not hard with sprint). Although as undead... (After swapping to druid) first Fear: WotF, second trinket, third is 2.5sec~~ and then you're immune for 15 sec. You're druid can also CC the warlock at that point. As you don't need to blind anyone you can also use it to catch the druid if he gets out of range.

4pc PvE gear+all PvP items in other slots is usually inferor to 2 (or 4pc) PvP gear and PvE items in some other slots.
Mainly because not getting the 2pc +35 resilience is a huge loss. I would personally use t5 shoulders (as you lack s3 ones) and 4pc s3. I might use T5 pants for 2pc bonus if it had Nethercleft enchant but probably not.
The real question is as to what kind of PvE gear you have access too.
I can think of a few in T5 content. From Zul'Aman [Signet of Primal Wrath] and [Ring of Lethality] from Hydross are excellent pieces for those slots.
For trinket I'd either go with DST or [Berserker's Call] (Alternatively WSC/TT).
[Choker of Vile Intent] is also a very viable option if you have enough stamina/resilience.
S3 gear itself is quite offensive when compared to t5.

I must admit I generally tried to keep focusing the warlock until it died, but we generally lost that mana war because my druid can't drink while the warlock's can. But that's probably the age old story when it comes to this setup so I'll bore you no longer! Even as a Nelf fear isn't a massive issue due to Will of Eyonix (vanish as fear hits, basicly does the same as WotF), CloS and kicks. And realisticly I won't be using vanish for too much else so soon (catching the druid comes to mind, but vanishing with a full DoT set and expecting a CS is usually counter productive for me), my vanish CD is also fairly low so the opportunity for that will arise eventually.

I use [Band of Vile Aggression] and the S3 PvP ring atm, and am pretty sure my other rings are insuperior (kara rep ring, tier 1 MH rep ring, ring of a thousand marks). As for trinkets I have DST, rumolo's poison vail and the battlemaster trinket, and I personally feel the latter is not far behind in offense but obviously way ahead in defense. As for "random pieces" I have a double +8agi [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths], 4agi/6stam [Vambraces of Ending] and [Worgen Claw Necklace] as a neck, which could potentionally replace my S3 belt/neck or S2 bracers (+6 resilience gem). I slapped nethercleft on my S3 legs and nethercobra on my T5's, doubt it'll matter the world but that's sort of the "mistake" I made .

I'll try mash around some random pieces and see what kinda stats I come up with, it's all fun and joy now that we're trying new setups anyway!

I'm sorry if this has been answered before, but I've gone through quite a few pages in this thread without finding an answer to my three questions.

1. With a shadowstep spec, should I go for 8 agi or 16 AP gems?

2. Why is a 20/0/41 spec more common among the top rogues than 0/20/41? It's hard to compare the damage output since the spreadsheets assume sustained damage with SnD up, against 0 resilience targets.

3. With the 20/0/41 spec, is it worth it to keep SnD up?

It's really preference. 8agi will get you "more" in overall stats increase because of SC/Deadliness stacking, however most people (myself included) believe that eschewing crit altogether is not a big deal. The AP gain from using 16ap gems outweighs the little bit of crit lost, and the dodge/armor gains are negligible at best.

Example:
Neilyo (The World of Warcraft Armory) opted to go with 8agi gems, this gives him quite a bit more crit which is nice with 20/0/41, notice he took full Lethality and Imp Evis instead of Murder. I remember him suggesting this being the only way to squeeze any burst out of a ShS build. It makes sense, but it's up to you ultimately.



As mentioned above, burst is still important and 0/20/41 offers very little. It also lacks a lot of control without Relentless Strikes and you cannot take any poison talents. The only rogue I ever saw using 0/20/41 consistently in high-level play was Shinta (warglaives, etc.), and he has since ebayed and now resides on my server. Maybe this spec causes depression? Who knows!
By all means try it out for yourself, but most have found that imp sprint and some extra white damage does not make up for the added utility and "comfort" of 20 in Assassination.

It is always worth it to keep SnD up. This means more poison apps, and it puts your +15% Agi and +10% AP to better use since you're churning out more attacks. That's another nice thing about going 20 in Assassination, you can pick up Ruthlessness for the occasional SnD refresh after landing a KS, etc. SnD is really probably our best finisher for all points and purposes.

I ran the Rogue DPS calculator on my (crappy) gear, and I found some interesting information regarding finishers. I used 4000 armor for my "boss"/opponent.

First of all, I think Kidney Shot is the best finisher in PvP for a number of reasons that can't be modeled well on the spreadsheet. That being said, if you are x/x/4x, you often open with premeditation and have 5 combo points almost immediately. Using a Kidney Shot here is generally a waste, as your victim can be still be under the cheap shot stun.

I compared the damage done by an (non-improved, 5 point) eviscerate to Slice and Dice, and I found that SnD outperformed the eviscerate in 13 seconds (that's ~ a 2 point SnD). I don't know about you, but I seldom have 13 uninterrupted seconds on a target in 2vs2. Of course, SnD also improves your poison applications and weapon procs.

Under the assumption that you won't be on your target for long periods of time, I suspect that you should do a 1 or 2 point SnD, and use 5 point finishers on Kidney Shots and Expose Armor/Rupture.

Other interesting information was that 16AP did more dps than 8 Agility, and that points in precision were more valuable to dps than points in lethality. 11/7/43 had more dps than 18/0/43, so that is what I specced.

Take this with a grain of salt, since as mentioned I have terrible gear and play poorly in 2v2s, however I think the process of evaluating your own gear in a dps calculator is valuable.

What finisher do you use when first opening, after a premeditation? My usual:
Priest/Mage: Garrote->Shiv->Expose Armor
Warrior/Paladin/Rogue: Cheapshot->Shiv->(Evasion)->Rupture
Everything else: Cheapshot->??

I agree that Vile Poison is very useful, and I probably will respec to 18/0/43 for that and improved-EA.

According to the spreadsheet, my optimal DPS cycle is NOT SnD, but 5 point ruptures. I think against a rogue/warrior, it's better to use Rupture over Slice and Dice, but I welcome arguments to the contrary.

As for Agility providing crit/dodge, the amount of dodge is minimal and the crit is already included in the dps spreadsheet. I'm not the only one who thinks 16 AP is better than 8 Agility, according to shadowpanther.net the majority of "famous/good" rogues gem that way, and the AEP formula has been modified in that direction for PvP.

The key thing here is "5pt Ruptures", it's not like you have to be doing 5pt SnDs. The reason SnD is better is because you can simply refresh it with any number of cps and it's good for any target at any time. Rupture, as you said, is really only useful for rogue or warrior (not so much druid, since you'll be rotating DT and KS with what cps you have during the chase) and with Hemo you don't exactly have endless cps to be dropping many Ruptures at all aside from a 1-2pt one as Vanish deterrent. Maybe off the Premed/CS but that's about it. It's almost always better to sit on 4-5cp with KS ready than to waste them on a Rupture and blow a stun opportunity.
Experience is better than spreadsheets, I've found.

Don't forget about EA.

Of course. And if you've got Imp EA it really only takes 2-3 cp to fully expose cloth so there's another refreshable damage increase for less than 5cp

A priest with full season 3 set has 1903 armor from the set alone. Add vindicator parts and other equipment and you could be well near or over 3k. Then add Inner fire for 1.5k armor. You wont be reducing him to zero armor without any other source of armor penetration in your gear.

I think he was replying to the post above about how a 2-3CP EA gets nowhere near dropping a clothie to 0 armor in season 3.

Why are people worrying about optimal cycles and finishers for PvP? You can't follow any solid set of rules when PvPing with a rogue, your strategy changes on every opponent due to class, racials and their partner. Like someone else said, for many targets you should be saving kidney for when you think they're likely to break range. However when you're focusing a dps that is focusing your healer, kidney shotting as much as possible (and communicating that) has more positive effects.

I think modeling PvP is as interesting and rewarding as modeling PvE. Yes, it's more difficult, and there are more contingencies to consider, but just like a there is a (perhaps optimal) strategy for beating a certain boss in PvE, there is a more optimal strategy to follow in PvP. (Ignoring for a moment the possibility of counter-strategies)

Now, it may be that using a PvE tool like the Raid Calculator is inappropriate for modeling PvP performance, which is probably true. On the other hand, with the lack of a good PvP modeling tool it does give us some information, which can be combined with the anecdotal advice of PvP experts. For example, it's "common knowledge" that you should "always keep SnD up". What I found from the Raid Calculator was that a five point Rupture outperformed a five point SnD with my (crappy) gear and shadowstep spec. So at the beginning of a fight when I typically have 5 combo points and it's too early to use kidney shot, I would be better off using Rupture rather than SnD. This doesn't even take into account the fact that I need to be continually fighting my target for the duration of the SnD to get its full effect.

It makes sense that instead I should focus on 1 or 2 point SnDs where I am more likely to be engaged for the entire duration, and where a 1 or 2 point Rupture is less valuable.

Keeping SnD up has as much to do with poison application as it does steady damage, steady damage being a (mostly) moot point in pvp anyway, compared to the ability to CC/burst. While rupture is great to stop rogues from vanishing, if you're rupturing as ShS, you're missing out on (one or more of) better DPS from EA, better control from KS, and better dps/control from the poison application and haste of SnD. Rupture also ruins your ability to gouge/blind and switch targets.

So while it has its situational uses, this isn't pve, and rupture shouldn't be your preferred finisher basically ever.

Except you'd never use Rupture as a form of damage pressure any arena, period. It is useful only when focusing rogues and hindering their ability to vanish > escape or vanish > lockdown your healer or dps. This is why finisher discussion, or rulesets are near useless in a thread like this. Use the raid calculator to see how strong a Dirty Deeds enhanced 5CP rupture will hit for and I will tell you that you if you're target is in burst range and not in danger of escaping via abilities than you should use Eviscerate. I will also tell you using 1-2 CP SnD while focusing anyone, consistently, you're going to find yourself CCd and without a Ruthlessness proc to slow that target down with a deadly through once you come out of it. 1 CP is worth 10,000 gold when you've used a dps finisher only to find yourself out of melee range soon after without a Ruthlessness proc.

By all means, number crunch gear choices though.

I don't know... I kind of like it as an opener on high armor targets. Premed-->Garrote--> Hemo--> optional Shadow Step --> Rupture on a Shaman or a Paladin is a good amount of bleeding going on.

Any build with Premed I'd much rather Cheapshot > Expose. With Shadowstep, even Garrote has lost it's usefulness against the class it worked best against, mages. Just Premed > Cheapshot and if they blink, you ShS > Kidney Shot and they have to choose to either eat a full stun+melee or iceblock. I only really Garrote on the 2nd opener for 2v2 and 3v3, at the start of a fight I want control, which means stuns, and I want to see if my melee procs crippling on my target during the stun so I don't have to shiv. Garroting kinda means you have to Shiv.

Expose just offers more burst opportunity during CC than SnD or Rupture, which is generally what rogue comps are all about.

Could any1 give me a link of an executioner vs mungo discussion? I don't rly find one in this thread which gives a acceptable solution. In the Rogue (PvE) discussion it's only said that it only should be used in high-end PvE content. What about PvP? I could imagine that with executioner, points spent in Imp EA would be worth twice.

@Discussion: I often beginn with Cheapshot (after Premend) -> EA -> Hemo -> Hemo -> SnD. Never used any spreadsheets oslt.
SnD just boosts your Poisons and sustained DMG. Allthough rupture outruns SnD if you're getting CCed. It always depends what kind of Lineup you're running and what tactics you follow.

Might have some info for you here:

[Raid] Executioner vs. Mongoose, preliminary numbers

Source: 2.4 PTR and Patch Notes

If this is true I can just skip switching to Shadowstep, keep my daggers and be happy that I have the new flavour of the month weapon already. Or do I miss something important ?

By the way this could make Mutilate viable on PVE, because of the improved backstab on poison immune mobs.

Viable it's always been, Top DPS its never been, and wont be because you can suddenly backstab poison immune mobs.

Makes it more tempting to go Mutilate in 5s especially.