Hildegard

Yes, but when season 4 hits - T6 isn't that overpowered anymore.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

mde

Originally it was retroactive then they changed it to sunwell only and now they added stam back .. sighs. Pretty soon you're going to start seeing rogues getting focused again, Cheat Death or Mutilate or not.

 

Macblade

The Sunwell gear, even the stuff that isn't part of the T6 set should pretty much be called T6.5. Some of the upgrades, say T6 chest to the LWer chest, are on the order of the upgrade from the T5 chest to the T6 chest. So if you are counting the sunwell gear as part of T6, then I would say it'll still be better than season 4 unless they really buff season 4.

Also, I was under the impression that using some T6 was as much, or more, for the set bonuses as it is for the item by item comparison.

 

Takpui

Not that big of a fan of ghostly strike, although I haven't tried it recently. I'll give it a try and see if I don't hate not having 5/5 camo. Like I said I had good results with 0/31/30 but since I wasn't the primary DPS, 90% of the time my mage blows away my dps, having that extra energy for kicks/gouge etc was what I was looking for. Ideally I guess I could just do a combat build with 7 pts sub for 5/5 MoD 2/2 Sap

 

Hildegard

Yes of course there are very strong upgrades around, but I doubt the new sets will be that strong. The new engineering goggles will be very popular for non-raiding rogues (that have a lot of gold), especially combined with Heightened Senses. Most rogues will bring in some special pieces of PVE gear, but I doubt that going down to 100 Resilience will be a good idea anymore.

And as a dagger rogue I get focussed a lot. So anything less than 350 resilience would really hurt. Right now especially in 2vs2 the burst of full PVE-ShS-rogues is insane.

I only hope, that they won't put expertise on the Saison 4 rogue set, because as a PVP dagger rogue it is a stat not really worth it, as players have zero avoidance in their back.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

• LodeRunner

Ghostly Strike hits harder than SS or Hemorrhage and it's a mere 40 energy. I like to try and save it for when the enemy is sub 20% for a nice burst.

 

Macblade

Expertise is still useful for a dagger rogue, everyone dodges even when you attack from behind, which is why raiding rogues are happy to have expertise. Your point still stands though, expertise isn't as useful to a dagger rogue as it is to a SS or Hemo rogue who get the double benefit of less dodging and less parrying. Just wanted to clarify that expertise is useful, at about the same level as +hit is, when attacking from behind. It's just much more useful if you are attacking from the front.

 

Hildegard

Only in PVE. Players have 0 avoidance from behind. So in PVP it is not really useful as a dagger rogue.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

Tower

And if you miss/dodge a Ghostly Strike, you lose all 40 energy, as you retain the Dodge benefit from it no matter hit or miss. Whereas Hemo, you lose what, 13 energy? Ghostly only hits for 5% more damage, assuming you're Shadowstep.

I only safely use it versus locks and priests for damage, whom are consistently trying to escape, but I've been bitten too many times against mages and rogues by the energy loss.

I use it consistently when I'm being focused by a melee though.

 

Emth.

I have to disagree. You have to think about more than just combat time where leveling is concerned, and ShS wins easily. Especially with a build like mutilate where you absolutely need an opener you are going to spend large amounts of time walking around in stealth, assuming you are fighting mobs at least equal to your level.

Not only does ShS have ShS, which instantly puts you in position every 30 seconds, but it has camo for those times inbetween too, or when you need to walk through a cave or similar stealthed.

Also when you factor in kill times of about 15-20 seconds, talents like Master of Subtlety all of a sudden look a lot more attractive. 10% extra damage for the first 6 seconds, +20% on your first special from shadowstep, and 20% on all specials under 35% means you're going to have a damage modifier up almost constantly.

I absolutely feel leveling (not sure about pure killing speed) is faster as shadowstep compared to full combat. Combat also has the disadvantage of either limiting your weapon upgrades or forcing you to waste 5 talent points or respec often.

 

Surpico

Anyone have a few tips for spotting stealthers? Even with 5/5 MoD and 2/2 Heightened Senses I have a very hard time finding rogues/druids before they see me. In rogue vs rogue duels against skilled opponents I probably only get 20% of the openers off. Frequently I'll hear the "stealth" sound effect of my opponent but be unable to locate it fast enough before they make their move. Other times I'll hear the sound and the stealther won't be in front of my view but on a side or has already passed by and almost at my backside. Occasionally by the time I find the target and get it centered it disappears. I'm curious what some of the more experienced rogues do when encountering the stealth sound effect. Do you tab target or click? Do you spin your camera wildly around? Perhaps use a macro?

Part of the problem is visually spotting the rogue/druid on screen. If I could somehow figure out how to get "show enemy name plates" to work for stealthed targets I would be much more effective. Anyone aware of a unit frame with that option? Or perhaps a mod to highlight the visual.

Any tips or secrets you can divulge would make my Ret paladin arena partner very happy.

 

Fenwick

I think a fair portion of your troubles comes from either your connection or the strange latency that I've noticed exists in arenas, but not BG's or the PvE world.

In both of the latter scenes, I have zero problem getting the jump on others that are in stealth. In arena, I'd say I get the jump on a stealthed opponent about 40% of the time, even when I pop perception. Druids seem to give me more trouble than rogues, too. I had a 2v2 over the weekend where I saw a druid off to my side and hit my cheap shot key as I turned my mouse to face him, yet magically he managed to get a pounce off on me when he was a) not quite in range and b) not quite behind me. This happens far more frequently than I'm pleased with.

I don't have a crappy connection (average 80-120ms latency) and I'm not someone with slow reactions. I've definitely noticed an increased latency in arena, though. It doesn't show up on any meters either, it's just there. The amount of times I've been right on top of someone trying to KS them or use some other ability and get the, "You're too far away," error has been enough to make me want to rip out what's left of my hair.

I've (my partner as well) also had the odd experience where I press a button for an ability, let's say kick, and nothing happens. I have the energy, I'm close enough, the GCD isn't in play. Just nothing happens; no kick, no GCD appearing, nothing. There seems to be funky stuff going on with arena sometimes.

 

Tower

Don't forget Paranoia range is huge, and all group members get it when the Felhunter is out. I'd appreciate some sort of linear progression in regards to stealth detection being combatted by ranked of Master of Deception. Things like Perception should be powerful, but Paranoia (which can help players see stealth from VERY far away with 5/5 MoD) for a whole group seems a bit out of balance in comparison to what we have to pay for stealth talents and stealth detection.

I get sapped, a LOT. I spam by damn Sap macro too, and more often than not I am sapped first. It happens so goddamn often I am going to pre-buy the Sunwell engineering goggles from someone and when they eventually drop I'll be dropping herbalism and picking it up.

Going up Dwarf Priest, Gnome Mage and Human Rogue is just a goddamn nightmare RMP mirror match for my undead team. With the nerf to druid 4 piece, I can see a lot of alliance RMP teams going for the druid kill.

 

Hildegard

As 41/20 it is even worse. I have the old engineering goggles and I wear them. My RMP team has two humans, but still against Shadowstep/Sap we can't really do much and rogues tend to do that a lot lately. I often just skip stealth right away and try desperatly to enter combat or to try a late restealth, distract and sap.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

Tower

I really don't like Shadowstepping > Sap when I'm facing RMP mirror. I lose my ability to Cheapshot the Mage, Hemo, then follow him with Shadowstep after he blinks into Kidney.

 

Hildegard

I totally agree, but still still a lot of rogues do this, when fighting against humans. I think this combo: Sap the rogue or priest - CheapShot the Mage - Blink - Kidney Shot is the biggest advantage of Shadowstep rogues in RMP, but I still favor 41-20-0 in this setup.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

saymyname

Even though non human rogue's are at a slight disadvantage opening up against human rogues with perception or engineering goggles, its always possible to get the opener.

Try throwing out a distract before opening up, doesn't have to be in any particular place, just to throw em around while you tab sap till you get em where you want, or if you do see them and have super good reactions you can throw a distract or even shadowstep to their backs.

Even if they do get the jump its always possible to turn the tide/ Rogues are all about surprises, so don't let them get conditioned to your attack sequence,

Be unpredictable but not unconventional, their are more than one ways to escape from a rogue opening up on you. I usually wait till his cheepshot runs out, and if hes not spamming kidney by then i usually try blinding him or turning and gouging him , if the timing is right you will pull out of it fine.

Best advice about dueling rogue vs rogue i can give is to practice, and find a rhythm you can keep for yourself, i have dueled some great rogues more times than they would have liked hehe, and i can say the good rogues never play the same way, they all have their own agenda on how to kill you, and so should you.

 

Fenwick

Currently I partner with a resto shaman in 2v2, and while we're not super geared-up we both have put in solid effort in getting at least the minimal full sets of gear. Speaking for myself, I'm in full S1 + S3 legs, S2 weapons and all S3 honor gear except for my boots (S2). I know that partnering with a resto shaman isn't ideal, but we're trying to see if we can make it work.

I've recently re-specced to ShS (previously was using my raid spec of combat fist/sword), and I feel it definitely gives me more mobility. However, I still feel pretty easily crippled in a few circumstances, most notably against war/paly and war/druid. With war/paly, we generally try to sap the war and burst the paly to force his bubble, then blind the war and re-burst the paly once the bubble is out. For war/druid, it's roughly the same thing, just harder due to trying to keep up with the ever-shifting druid.

So here's the problem. In either of these fights, if their war goes after my shaman, we generally win, gear level differences notwithstanding. However, if the war goes after me, we pretty much always lose. With the warrior spamstringing me, I basically have 3 escapes (trinket, ShS and prep ShS), as vanish is largely useless because I'm usually bleeding within the first 2 hits by the war. These escapes are usually countered instantly via more spamstring or an intercept/string, which means I basically never get away from the war. If I try to focus the war because I can't run from him or catch the healer, I can't dps through the heals (especially druid heals).

This weekend we were almost at 1700 rating, then got absolutely wrecked by several "smart" war/druid and war/paly teams in a row. Is this one of those "you're always going to lose against X/Y team" situations? Is there something we could be doing different here? Is ShS spec hindering me in some fashion (keep in mind, the only pvp weapons I have are S2 fist/sword)? I know grabbing updated arena gear will help, but I'm not sure how much. With S4 gear appearing on the PTR, I'm also a little loathe to buy S3 gear when I can cap my points out and buy 3 pieces of S4 in possibly 1-1.5 months. Basically I'm looking for whatever advice that's out there, as we've gotten to the point where we're thinking that maybe we just plain shouldn't partner in 2v2 because it's a poor combo.

 

• LodeRunner

This is really the underlying issue. Sadly, Resto Shamans currently don't have a whole lot to offer in the 2s bracket, much like Paladins. I would think you'd be winning more often than not versus Paladins, though. They're so incredibly easy to lock down with a kick/earth shock rotation that the only time they should ever get a heal off is during their bubble. As a Rogue you'll find more success partnering with a priest or a mage. Playing Shadow Priest/Rogue vs Paladin/Warrior is pretty much downright unfair for the Paladin/Warrior team.
Hopefully they'll make Shamans and Paladins more viable in the 2s and 3s brackets.

 

Fenwick

We win more often than not against paladins. When we lose, it's because the war follows me around and spamstrings while the paly runs away. If I switch to dps the war, the paly can generally outheal me, as I don't really seem to be able to burst enough past the initial engagement. So really, it's only the "smart" teams that realize all they have to do is keep me snared that we lose to.

Yea, my friend and I have talked about switching things up. While we don't have the best gear, we're not bad players, and after wracking our brains for how we could improve the only option that seems viable is to have me pair with someone else. Sucks because we want to both play together and succeed, but we realize that at least in 2v2 those are somewhat exclusive options.

I've considered pairing with a disc priest, a druid or a mage. My big problem here is that my guild is a raiding guild, and out of 40-50 active players, only about half a dozen of us are actually serious about pvp (serious meaning putting together actual pvp sets of gear instead of just wearing pve gear for 10 games a week). While raiding is still my focus, I'd like to put in more effort than just doing the required 10 games a week and hoping to hit 1850 before the next season. Sadly, that means searching for strangers to play with.

 

Hildegard

The stealth macro is a great thing. Somehow I missed this up until I read Towers post yesterday. Today I landed quite lot saps against shadowstep rogues, as 41-20-0 with engineering goggles. Seems many rogues don't know this macro.

/targetenemy
/cast sap

Spam this while stealthed.

By the way - would this macro automatically cheap shot druids and sap rogues ?

/targetenemy
/cast sap
/cast CheapShot

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

Trazhenko

I'm pretty sure you would just get an "invalid target" error for the sap, and it wouldn't even try the CS.

 

x1tiger1x

There is a more reliable spammable sap macro that targets nearest enemy if they are at a range of less than 10 yards. It also doesn't switch targets if you are spamming sap on a target that you already have targeted. I'll edit my post with it when I get home.

Also if you want to invest in a ghetto perception that takes up your headslot you should go and farm one of these :

Hyper-Vision Goggles - Items - World of Warcraft

Incredibly easy to farm (1hour or less) and when paired with Heightened Senses you are at about 36 points of stealth detection. Also usable in stealth. Obviously, the downside is you lose your headslot item and you are not guaranteed to actually find the other stealther.

It is nice for duels though, since in rogue v rogue whoever lands the first opener usually comes out on top.

Also for that second macro you put in that has the /cast sap /cast cheapshot, you would wind up over-mashing the sap into a cheapshot accidently.

 

boysailor

The "/targetenemy /cast sap" I know works for a fact. That's the one I'm using. (hot keys; 3 = normal sap, 4 = sap macro).

The cheap shot addition I don't know though.

 

Mackabre

#showtooltip Sap
/console targetNearestDistance 10.000000
/targetenemy [noharm][dead]
/console targetNearestDistance 41.000000
/cast [harm,nodead] Sap


Enjoy. =)