[Rogue] PVP Stat Standards/advice - Page 53

Headhuntress · 02/29/08, 8:31 AM

Hm did a search but didn't find anything. How do you counter Mage+Rogue setups as Muti rogue+Disc priest? Usually even if I get the opener on rogue I get chain sheeped/blinded and my priest is down in 10 sec. We basically need a way to survive the burst. Sapping the rogue is out of option since I'm 41/20 and I'll get sapped first most of the times. The priest can't dispel all sheeps, since he's stunlocked.

Tower · 02/29/08, 11:30 AM

Run in, engage the mage asap, use gouge and kidney whenever they're up on BOTH the mage and rogue and pillar hump.

If you deny them the sap and engage the mage before he is able to position with his rogue, it's an easy win.

Tower · 02/29/08, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Jakani

But to answer your question: giving the shaman an MS effect reduces the effect any kind of counter-strategy relying on controlling the warrior, which is really the best strategy for reducing the effect of a double melee team tearing apart your clothies.

This. Mages and druids offer CC that need only last 4-6s to let MS drop, healing through MS is the most powerful mana burn there is.

Darlal · 02/29/08, 11:45 AM

As a rogue who runs Rogue/Shammy, we're torn about the Shammy "buffs". In reality they just serve to: (a) make wound poison look even more awful--seriously, it's the only -healing debuff that has significant ramp-up time, can be passively removed via abolish poison, and directly removed by 3/4 healing classes in the game-- and (b) completely ignore the actual shammy cc issues while pretending to give them a buff. The only 2 advantages I see to this is that I can now put a dps poison on my mainhand (if the enemy is double dps leave it, if not click it off and have flametounge for a few seconds while I find a second do put on wounding) and that my resto partner can now apply a healing debuff to a second target for me to ShS to. In the first case, the 5 second duration of the flametounge debuff makes it inferior to wound poison in situations where wound poison is possible. In the second situation, there is very little surprise-second-target-burst from rogues and little secondary damage from shammies. Furthermore, both of these "advantages" really just highlight the issues poisons have in the first place. From the pov of rogue/shammy, the issue is that neither of these are really useful upgrades. What we'd love to see is weapon totems and poisons stack, or ghostwolf remove snares, or frostshock have a chance to freeze the target (30% ish), or something else actually useful to our play-style.

Heaven forbid they give us a buff that gives us a whisper of a prayer against Warrior/Druid, or in general Warrior/Healer.

supersharkman · 02/29/08, 12:06 PM

I tried doing a search but with no luck, but what gems are ideal for Rogues and PvP? Roguecraft 101 focuses on PvE gemming, is there a guide for PvP gemming and the various builds like Mutilate/Combat?

Nicci · 02/29/08, 10:59 PM

first off all my appoligies if it has been mentioned b4, this has become a quiet large thread.. to big to read it all at this late hour (its 3 am here

)

but i have a question regarding to the ideal mutil build for PvP

Atm i have 41/20/0
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

and i am considering 41/0/20
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
(already includes imp backstab for the upcomming mutil buff)

why give up DWS?
well imho there are some nice talents in the sub tree that sure are helpfull for PvP..
like 45% crit on ambush,
2% less chance to get critted
more speed while stealthed
and most importand the 560 ignore armor from serrated blades

the way i see it, DWS boost the OH dmg from 50% to 75%
but Oportunity boost the dmg off both daggers with 20%

so lets asume u have 2 exactly the same daggers and u hit 1k with them in MH (mutil)
with DWS that would result in 1k MH 750OH... 1.75k total
with Oportunity it would be 1.2k MH.. 600OH...1.8k total
making Oportunity slightly better
the next thing i am wondering about is how the dmg increase from talents works on my example ,
for example Lethality, the 50% dmg increase from poison ore the RED meta,
in wich order do they apply and on what
is it for example on a mutil crit with oportunity (asuming now that the 1k is a crit instead off a hit)
MH: 1k x 120%(Oportunity) = 1.2k x 130%(lethality) = 1560
OH: 500 x 120% (Oportunity)= 600 x 130%(lethality) = 780
total dmg :2340
ore does lethally apply on the base dmg making it:
MH 1k x 120% (oportunity) = 1.2k + 1k x 30%(lethality) = 1500
OH 500 x 120% (oportunity) = 600 + 500 x 30%(lethality) = 750
total dmg : 2250
crit whitout Oportunity:
MH 1k x 130% = 1300
OH 750x130% = 975
total dmg: 2275
why does this mather? becouse if the dmg multiplyers stack in a certain order oportunity will become beter overall

looking at the points spend to get DWS
i would say sleight of hand is beter as the dodge u gain from lightning reflexes.
precision aint really a must have anymore if u look at the vengefull gear, every piece has hit on it.
i hardly get to use a 2nd evo ore sprint from endurance
so the things i would miss most are imp sprint and imp gouge..

considering the fact that DWS boost whitedmg and u dont get anything in return for that except a slight boost on mutilate (if my calculations are right) crit on ambush and most important for me the ignore armor...
i am wondering if its worth it to give up DWS

i currently do around 350 dmg with my MH, and since my OH is almost similair, i could asume i would do 350 with it aswell if there was no DW pennalty..
so this means i would hit for 263 with DWS spec (0.75x 350)
and 175 whitout it (0.5x300)
also in my exerience the most dmg in arena comes from mutilate and finisters (i mostly prefer eviscerate, becouse the faster my target is dead the less it hurts me ore my teammate

)

with this new build there is also a chance to gain 3 CPS on ambush,
1 extra CP from seal fate ( with my current gear and imp ambush i would have around 60% chance to crit on a well geared player with 300+ res )
and 1 extra CP from initiative (75% chance)
imho it would be save to say i get atleast 2 CP's from ambush
i have 110-120 energy ( mostly prefer to use T5 legs and shoulders cous they give a nice crit and ap boost compared to pvp gear and the 2 set bonus) but considering i would have 4 pieces off gladiator i would have 120 energy..
enough for an ambush + mutilate.. giving me atleast 4 CPS wich would make kidney shot available earlyer...
also the rupture buff sure is nice to have...

and last but not least, with the serrated blades i would have 700-800ish ignore armor.. if i get a decent MH dagger i am considering executioner on it.. taking the base ignore armor + a exe proc and an expose armor up (imp 1).. i would get 4500 armor less on the target wich is alot for almost every class except a druid...

anyway long story short..

what do u guys think and wich build do u prefer yourself?

Hildegard · 03/01/08, 6:23 AM

With the flametongue totem changes and flametongue being a physical effect. It came to my mind if it would be wise to replace wound poison flametongue totem instead of wound poison.

Also I kind of miss any discussion about the Shadowstep Change here.

WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Cheat Death reducing damage by 99%

@Nicci:
Why on earth would you take 4/5 Deadend Nerves instead of poison talents, Ruhtlesness or even murder ? I also think that even as mutilate there is no real point in taking improved ambush, as opening with CheapShot, Garrote or even Mutilate seems much more effective.

Emth. · 03/01/08, 7:21 AM

Originally Posted by vellon

I am choosing to initially keep Lethality while in the lower brackets as I don't expect to run into many 400 resilience targets initially. When I begin to run into targets with heavy resilience, is the conventional wisdom that the points in Lethality are essentially wasted?

Honestly, it may be battlegroup dependent, but you'll be surprised how well geared people can be even low down. I've been doing double rogue in 2 vs 2 and around 1600 we faced teams will full S3 rogues, full S3 locks, warriors with S3/BT weapons, etc. I'm pretty confident that I was the worst geared people out of anyone we've faced so far past about 1550...

Here's my rogues profile: The World of Warcraft Armory

Nekokun · 03/01/08, 8:16 AM

I still cannot help but wonder, will the 15% extra crit really boost mutilate as much as is expected? I have been playing Mutilate for about a week now (fresh rogue, just got the daggers) and I really miss the mobility of Shadowstep in Arena and smaller scale PvP such as duels and Battlegrounds. I highly doubt it will ever be a bandwagon spec as it takes alot of effort to be succesful in arena and such, because if you are focussed you are dead very quickly.

Nicci · 03/01/08, 8:25 AM

Originally Posted by Hildegard

With the flametongue totem changes and flametongue being a physical effect. It came to my
@Nicci:
Why on earth would you take 4/5 Deadend Nerves instead of poison talents, Ruhtlesness or even murder ? I also think that even as mutilate there is no real point in taking improved ambush, as opening with CheapShot, Garrote or even Mutilate seems much more effective.

yea looking at it now.. deadly nerves is a waste of points and will be better spend on Ruhtlesness/poisons,
about the ambush, i prefer to use it on low ress geared clothies ore mages, Garrotte takes to long to do its full dmg imho
but i will keep it in mind..
usally i use ambush mutil kidneyshot shiv if needed, coldblood mutil mutil eviscerate on low ress clothies
and starting with mutil is imho a waste cous there is no poisons on target and u dont have find weakness up yet
ambush would roughly get 2-2.5k dmg (crit ) 1193 normal
garotte 1-1.1k over 18 secs but silences for 3 secs
mutil 431+256.. crit: 992+589

anyway the main point of my concern is 20 points in combat vs 20 points in subtlety

Nicci · 03/01/08, 8:55 AM

Originally Posted by Nekokun

I still cannot help but wonder, will the 15% extra crit really boost mutilate as much as is expected? I have been playing Mutilate for about a week now (fresh rogue, just got the daggers) and I really miss the mobility of Shadowstep in Arena and smaller scale PvP such as duels and Battlegrounds. I highly doubt it will ever be a bandwagon spec as it takes alot of effort to be succesful in arena and such, because if you are focussed you are dead very quickly.

well i for one cant wait till they buff it :P
and yea i think it would make a big diference cous for example, i have around 33% crit atm, it will be 48 with the buff,
even if u consider high ress players its still a free 15% crit

.. and with seal fate ur looking at a 22.5% higher chance on a extra CP (15% on mh + 15% on OH is 22.5% chance 1 off them crits afaik)

as for the spec itself.. i just love the mutilate playstyle.. its imho the most fun to play but becouse it aint so good in PvE
i only get to use it in PvP

for arena i mainly focus on 2vs2 with a lock, i am stealthed he's not.. 90% goes for him so most off the time i dont need the extra survivability..
altho we had a tie once.. my team mate was dead and so was the other 1.. so it came down to a
rogue vs rogue, me being mutil and he hemo mace specc with cheat death.. i was at 60% but still had my HS.. he was at 80%.. so i pop my HS 90% vs 80% both evo on.. i was at 30 he 10%.. he got a mace proc on me.. after that i hit him he got cheat death on i got another mace proc and well it ended in me killing him at the same time as he killed me.. it was quete fun tbh

but to the point.. he was able to kill me cous he was lucky with his mace procs.. and i simply dont want to win like that.. i wanna win becouse we are better ore played better rather then relying on maceprocs for example
altho i must admid cheat death mace spec with hemo is effective its just not my thing

and besides that quick recovery is a great help aswel.. i get rougly 3k on HS and 510 bandage ticks and it also helps alot in a 5vs5 with 1-2 healers setup imho..

for me the more efford that is needed to make mutilate succesfull makes it fun to play

Hildegard · 03/01/08, 9:02 AM

Originally Posted by Nekokun

I still cannot help but wonder, will the 15% extra crit really boost mutilate as much as is expected? I have been playing Mutilate for about a week now (fresh rogue, just got the daggers) and I really miss the mobility of Shadowstep in Arena and smaller scale PvP such as duels and Battlegrounds. I highly doubt it will ever be a bandwagon spec as it takes alot of effort to be succesful in arena and such, because if you are focussed you are dead very quickly.

With the bug removed from Cheat Death we will see a lot less PVE gear around on ShadowStep-Rogues. Mutilate will become the best DPS Spec with the highest sustained damage and the highest burst. Since Ming claimed to try Mutilate with 2.4 we can assume that many rogues will try it.

Especially for rogues with no top gear Mutilate will be stronger, because ShS with Saison 1 and Karazhan/Heroic gear will do too less damage.

@Nicci:
Which Mutilate spec to take has been part of many discussion, as there are only two bad talents in the Assasination tree. Don't take Remorseless Attacks and Deadened Nerves. Talents you should go for arena are: Mutilate, Malice, Puncturing Wounds, Relentless Strikes, Cold Blood, Quick Recovery. Every other talent has been dropped in some discussions, including points in Seal Fate or Find Weaknesses.

Generally there many variants.
41-20-0 Standart Combat Mutilate
41(+2)-0-18 (+2) Sublety Mutilate
53(+1)-0-7(+1) Heavy Poison Mutilate

Here you can find a discussion about 2.4 specs for Mutilate:
2.4 Mutilate Buff - Arena Junkies Forums

Nicci · 03/01/08, 9:19 AM

thnx alot hildegard :P

mofidik · 03/01/08, 10:43 AM

Maces no longer an option for rogues

On a more serious note, I don't believe the cheat death fix is as big of a cow as people make it out to be. You'll have to specify which bracket you play even more now obviously, but in 2's especially when paired with a healer you shouldn't get bursted through it. I wouldn't be the last to believe that even with 90% damage reduction you'll be an unlikely target for a switch. That said, I'd love mutilate being top spec, personally I'd love to be able to mutilate from the front though.

Hildegard · 03/01/08, 12:23 PM

Yes but with the inspecting changes I just wait for an addon showing me the resilience of the target. If I see something like 150 and lower I will surely switch on that rogue. And without PVE gear the damage of ShS builds will be a lot lower.

Grunge · 03/01/08, 2:06 PM

Originally Posted by Hildegard

Yes but with the inspecting changes I just wait for an addon showing me the resilience of the target. If I see something like 150 and lower I will surely switch on that rogue. And without PVE gear the damage of ShS builds will be a lot lower.

It will be possible to inspect non-hostile players. Ie not in arena. And I'm sure come season 4 most shs rogues who have Sunwell access will still wear 200-300 resilience which is more than enough in 2's.
Also even if such an addon would be possible then switching on the rogue wouldn't be that easy still. Remember he will have ~~5-10% extra dodge. And then he has cheat death, that even at 90% would still be quite a deterrent.
There'll probably be some reduction of pve gear in 5's and 3's but I'd still wear rings and probably the new pants.

Macblade · 03/04/08, 2:39 PM

Originally Posted by Darlal

As a rogue who runs Rogue/Shammy, we're torn about the Shammy "buffs". In reality they just serve to: (a) make wound poison look even more awful--seriously, it's the only -healing debuff that has significant ramp-up time, can be passively removed via abolish poison, and directly removed by 3/4 healing classes in the game-- and (b) completely ignore the actual shammy cc issues while pretending to give them a buff. The only 2 advantages I see to this is that I can now put a dps poison on my mainhand (if the enemy is double dps leave it, if not click it off and have flametounge for a few seconds while I find a second do put on wounding) and that my resto partner can now apply a healing debuff to a second target for me to ShS to. In the first case, the 5 second duration of the flametounge debuff makes it inferior to wound poison in situations where wound poison is possible. In the second situation, there is very little surprise-second-target-burst from rogues and little secondary damage from shammies. Furthermore, both of these "advantages" really just highlight the issues poisons have in the first place. From the pov of rogue/shammy, the issue is that neither of these are really useful upgrades. What we'd love to see is weapon totems and poisons stack, or ghostwolf remove snares, or frostshock have a chance to freeze the target (30% ish), or something else actually useful to our play-style.

Heaven forbid they give us a buff that gives us a whisper of a prayer against Warrior/Druid, or in general Warrior/Healer.

I'd have to say that your suggestions for buffs would be really over powered. Weapon totems and poisons stack? That would be increadibly powerful not only for PVP but for PVE (WF + deadly + instant poison in PVE?). They are making ghost wolf instant already, if they made it remove snares as well, you'd be turning shaman into druids with twice as much armor and a lot more offensive potential. The frost shock rooting would be an interesting idea. It would certainly help Ele shaman level too, which wouldn't be a bad thing.

Tower · 03/04/08, 3:39 PM

Er, what % of your damage are poisons accounting for when you don't have Windfury but have Grace of Air? Not a lot, it wouldn't break PvE. It would be a small boost to rogue dps and a nice benefit for rogues having more dps/healer synergy in PvP and PvE group makeups.

It would be nice to see Windfury Stack with Wounding, but I doubt that will ever go through now with the Flametongue changes.

Hildegard · 03/05/08, 11:33 AM

One question about mounted players

I have often a lot of trouble with enemy team members spliting. One being stealthed or running around, the other mounted. I find it very hard to catch the mounted players even with Shadowstep.

Something is fighting against druid/warrior or druid/warlock. I don't want to attack the warrior or the warlock but I can't find the druid.

How do you react or what are your strategies in situations like this ?

• LodeRunner · 03/05/08, 5:12 PM

Originally Posted by Hildegard

I find it very hard to catch the mounted players even with Shadowstep.

Sounds to me that's more of a lag issue. Shadowstep makes saps even easier. If you're concerned about it, Shadowstep then Distract and Sap. Alternately you could Distract then ShS then Sap.

aaroninwv · 03/05/08, 11:30 PM

I have a question about mutilate specs. At one point (early in TBC) I had thought 41/20/0 was a pve spec, but after some investigation (into why every rogue went 41/20 over other mut specs), I understood it was due to the sustained damage, which was king for arenas over burst. I haven't played for a while, someone now told me that 41/20 was no longer a viable arena spec, and that ass/sub was the only way to go due to stealth and dirty tricks

41/20 is a pve dps spec, lacking improved stealth and dirty tricks = dead rogue in 2s and 3s, and there are too many talents in assasination that are nearly required that spending a full 20pts into either combat or sub hurts your ability to play mutilate.

Well, that wasn't true the last time I checked, but things have changed since last time I checked. Some of the builds that were most popular then are not anymore. And thats just the evolution of arena I guess. He has said that 49/0/12 is the only way to go for arena. Now I don't have any problem believing thats a popular build, but that mut/dw is now considered pve I do. He's only got a rogue alt, so I'm not going to be taking his word for it. But even though he may not have any experience of his own, he may have read it here, or at another reliable source. And since I don't play anymore, and I realize things may have changed, I'm not going to say otherwise without consulting people who would know.

Do you consider 41/20 a pve spec? And while 49/0/12 may be more popular than it was, is it the only mutilate spec now? Thanks!

diotox · 03/06/08, 1:19 AM

It really doesn't have anything to do with pve, mutilate is generally regarded as inferior to combat builds for pve dps.A "mutilate pve spec" doesn't really make sense except for possibly people that want a spec they can "just get by" with in both pve and pvp without having to spend a lot of gold respecing all the time. 41/20 builds are extremely rare now due to the massive rise in popularity of druid healers and the mass adoption of shadowstep builds for most rogues. This leaves 41/20 getting totally boned by abolish poison, and getting sapped or opened on by a vast majority of other rogues in arenas because they have stealth talents and you don't. That's where heavy assassination + sub mutilate builds come in, they pick up vile and improved poisons to make sure their poisons are damn near impossible to remove, and they still have stealth talents and imp sap as to not get screwed by every other rogue on openers.

m1rado · 03/06/08, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by diotox

It really doesn't have anything to do with pve, mutilate is generally regarded as inferior to combat builds for pve dps.A "mutilate pve spec" doesn't really make sense except for possibly people that want a spec they can "just get by" with in both pve and pvp without having to spend a lot of gold respecing all the time. 41/20 builds are extremely rare now due to the massive rise in popularity of druid healers and the mass adoption of shadowstep builds for most rogues. This leaves 41/20 getting totally boned by abolish poison, and getting sapped or opened on by a vast majority of other rogues in arenas because they have stealth talents and you don't. That's where heavy assassination + sub mutilate builds come in, they pick up vile and improved poisons to make sure their poisons are damn near impossible to remove, and they still have stealth talents and imp sap as to not get screwed by every other rogue on openers.

Firstoff, the PvE DPS of combat mutilate is not bad at all. Spreadsheet puts me in my mutilate gear as more personal DPS than trispec hemo. Of course, the hemo debuff will contribute a large amount of dps to the raid. Also, my gear is tuned more to combat/trispec than muti, need more crit.

Secondly, combat mutilate is very workable in arena. Imp. Sprint is very very nice, and DWs is better than opp. for mutilate/sustained damage.

However, if I had the cash, I would spec either deep poisons muti or subt muti for arena.

Personally, the thing I like most about muti is that you can still burst. Being able to drop a CS=>Muti=>KS=>CB Mutilate=>Mutilate=>Evisc/Envenom is amazingly good damage, esp. if you get it off on a clothie with expose armor on.

• LodeRunner · 03/06/08, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by m1rado

DWs is better than opp. for mutilate/sustained damage.

I never liked how people extolled the virtues of DW being so great for sustained damage then turned around and talked about what amazing BURST it is. Opportunity is burst, DW is not.

gummy2 · 03/06/08, 3:25 PM

Originally Posted by LodeRunner

I never liked how people extolled the virtues of DW being so great for sustained damage then turned around and talked about what amazing BURST it is. Opportunity is burst, DW is not.

Pretty sure for mutilate DW and Opportunity gives you roughly the same mutilate damage since the base damage to offhand is not mitigated by the 50% dw penalty and gets a bonus from dw. DW burst is probably superior (unless you spec down the sub tree for serrated blades, but most rogues take poison talents and do not go beyond 12 points to pick up mod and dirty tricks)

Sub Mutilate will do less damage and less burst than DW mutilate. You make up for it with better poison application/poison removal resistance and stealth talents.