Rogue Mage Priest does not destroy Rogue Warrior Priest. It is the other way around.
I'm just going to say I think you're 100% wrong, show me a top Rogue/Warrior/Priest team with more than 40-50 games played. I can show you a few very strong Druid/Warrior/Rogue comps, but I have never seen a good Rogue/Warrior/Priest team past 1850 or so. I played it with solid players and we were constantly shown how we lacked synergy playing either defensively, offensively or man-to-man offense/defense. It doesn't take theorycrafting to see how a a warrior and rogue offer very few CC options to keep their priest alive in comparison to a rogue and mage. Hell RMP doesn't even need to kill their priest, you could focus a warrior and still manage a kill.
There's a reason you don't see any rogue/warrior or warrior/priest 2v2, while you see many many rogue/priest and rogue/mage 2v2s - those synergies carry over to 3v3 in many cases.
I'm wondering if anyone has any expirience to share with the slightly unorthodox Rogue / Retadin comp.
Works well for me. I play as Mutilate though, so it's a slightly different style. If I were running ShS we wouldn't have to be as careful (Cheat Death, Prep, etc.) but I don't think it'd be as fun. :P
Retpal gains bonus holy damage during stuns as you know so the Imp KS is pretty much a death sentence. If you're sticking one target (which is almost always the best idea) you can simply bait the trinket with HoJ and then follow with KS. The same deal works with CC by simply using Repent and Blind.
The only teams we ever have trouble with are hunt/dru and rog/mage. For hunt/dru we can usually win just by crashing into the hunter, if we chase the druid around the hunter is able to do too much peeling/damage.
As for rog/mage it's really only trouble if you get a super-aggresive team and they drop you (rogue) super fast. Again, I remind you that I play Mut so I am pretty susceptible to dps trains, you might have a different experience.
All in all, mutrog/retpal has some hilarious synergy that allows for some jaw-dropping moments (i.e. 3second warrior kill). I haven't really felt hard-countered yet, let me know how it works out for you with ShS though.
I play shadowstep Rogue/Retadin. It's rather fun comp however we struggle mightily against teams using warlock/healer or holy paladin/dps. We found it was very hard to kill anything with a holy paladin present. If we go for the dps the paladin will use Blessing of Sacrifice preventing CC and eventually BoP our target. If we try to kill the paladin he's got plate armor/bubble and can outlast our burst. As for warlocks, we usually kill the healer only to be heavily dotted and eventually die. Wondering how you (Uzol) handle those teams, perhaps split dps? Highest I reached was 1835 so I'm curious if you figured out any solutions.
Last edited by Surpico : 03/11/08 at 6:59 PM.
Reason: added spec
Site is temporarily down as I am posting the link.
Did you click the teams? 1 in the top 15 was clearly a Rogue/Priest/Warrior team. Rest had various well-geared (clearly not points-sold) players with equal or more games than the rogue. Some teams are also running 2 variants that are being incorrectly searched as Druid/Warrior/Priest + Druid/Warrior/Rogue = Priest/Warrior/Rogue
The 2 I did find in that list were around 2100, nothing amazing.
ok i know rogues and i know how to play em just i had the thought what if a rogue grabbed druid tanking gear? and dodge and stamina chant and gem it up to where your upwards high 30%-low 40% dodge range with high hp and high armor for like pvp you would be sacraficing lots of ap and lots of crit and what not but you would have surviveablility which rogues never had we wouldn't be soo squishy. and even though we are sacraficing all that if we just had weapons with killer dmg like merc. glad swords or what ever you would still pump out a good amount of dmg on things. so i was just wondering if it would work like im thinking it would? and im looking at the druid badge gear in 2.4 as some gear to get.
ok i know rogues and i know how to play em just i had the thought what if a rogue grabbed druid tanking gear? and dodge and stamina chant and gem it up to where your upwards high 30%-low 40% dodge range with high hp and high armor for like pvp you would be sacraficing lots of ap and lots of crit and what not but you would have surviveablility which rogues never had we wouldn't be soo squishy. and even though we are sacraficing all that if we just had weapons with killer dmg like merc. glad swords or what ever you would still pump out a good amount of dmg on things. so i was just wondering if it would work like im thinking it would? and im looking at the druid badge gear in 2.4 as some gear to get.
I'm not even close to an expert in pvp but I would think you would have some major problems.
Your resilience would be very bad so mages/warlocks/spriest are just going to tear you up since, as far as I know, armor and dodge rating won't help and they will be criting a lot so the extra stam won't help much either.
Overpower is also going to be a problem too since you won't have much resilience and you will be dodging constantly.
I don't know if you would ever do enough dps to kill a shaman, druid, paladin, or warrior without help. I think your only hope of doing enough dps would be the old HARP build but now that it's not as viable I just don't see how you could do enough sustained damage.
It's like your trying to do a RIP warrior but only put leather on him.
I think my keybindings are really messing me up, need some recommendations. I tried using WSAD to move plus the number row for bindings and that just does not work for me. My hands just cannot reach them and move or reach them + shit + move at the same time.
Current setup:
This is what I use:
Mouse
- Double click to move
- Right Click to Turn
- Mouse 4 = Vent
- Mouse 5 = Auto Run
Keyboard
Q = Eviscerate
W = SnD
E = Rupture
R = Kidney Shot
A = Shadowstep
S = Shiv
D = Hemo
F = Gouge
Z = Cloak of Shadow
X = Blind
C = Deadly Throw
V = Ghostly Strike
Shift E = Kick
Shift R = Stealth
Shift A = Vanish
Shift S = Evasion
Shift D = Trinket (Medallion)
Shift F = Sprint
Shift V = Exposed Armor
Shift C = Preparation
IMHO the keyboard as an MMO gaming device is horrible. We just need too many keys within easy reach. I would recommend getting a gaming pad. There are a lot of nice options out there. I use an Ideazon fang but you should go to your local stores and put your hands on them to see what is most comfortable for you.
The top 1-11 keys are bound to the first action bar and I think I only use 4 - Deadly throw and 5 for CoS
Turn Left - Blind
Forward - Forward
Turn right - kick
Strafe l/r bound to strafe l/r
Back - Back
From now on the number keys are referring to the numbers with a circle around them in the picture.
2 - Expose armor
Voice - Self Bandage
Reload - Assist
Use - Target nearest
run/walk - Stealth/Vanish macro
Crouch - KS
8 - Dodge
5 - Sprint
6 - CS/Gouge macro
7 - Ambush/Mutilate /w trinket 2 macro (trinket 2 is using trinket menu to queue several 200AP use trinkets)
Right side panic - rupture
Right side jump - jump
Mouse (older g5 with only 1 thumb button)
Thumb SS/Sap macro
Shift mouse wheel left CB/Evis
Shift mouse wheel right CB/ENV
+ - Trinket 1 (free movement trinket)
- - SnD
I'm gonna try some of that tonight. I actually bought that keyboard last year but I couldn't get it to work with Vista (april 07), so I returned it. I'm considering the new Nostromo that should be released soon.
IMHO the keyboard as an MMO gaming device is horrible. We just need too many keys within easy reach. I would recommend getting a gaming pad. There are a lot of nice options out there. I use an Ideazon fang but you should go to your local stores and put your hands on them to see what is most comfortable for you.
I have the feeling that rogue are one the classes that only need a few keys and I have no trouble binding everything I use on a g15 keyboard, with only 2 macro keys bound. Using the Shift key as a modifier gives you alot of extra keybinds. For example. Shift+3 is expose armor in my bindings.
I have the feeling that rogue are one the classes that only need a few keys and I have no trouble binding everything I use on a g15 keyboard, with only 2 macro keys bound. Using the Shift key as a modifier gives you alot of extra keybinds. For example. Shift+3 is expose armor in my bindings.
I have found out very quickly that leaving important binds that are necessary for PVP on key combinations is not a good idea. If you need it on the fly twitch style, trust me, you do not want to have to press shift+said key for CoS or evasion, let alone finishers. To each his own, but there is a degree of ergonomics involved in binding.
"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds."
I have found out very quickly that leaving important binds that are necessary for PVP on key combinations is not a good idea. If you need it on the fly twitch style, trust me, you do not want to have to press shift+said key for CoS or evasion, let alone finishers. To each his own, but there is a degree of ergonomics involved in binding.
Totally agree. So last night I was messing with some new bindings. I tried my main attack, Hemo, bound to "2" and then bound to "E" and it's fine if you're just moving forward or turning but it sucks if you have to strafe. Also, if I'm moving with W and I have something bound to Shift-2 it doesn't activate while I'm running with W. So I just put Throw on Shift-2. Using Z,X,C wasn't too bad but not the most comfortable keys to hit while running. I guess it'll just take some practice.
I have found out very quickly that leaving important binds that are necessary for PVP on key combinations is not a good idea. If you need it on the fly twitch style, trust me, you do not want to have to press shift+said key for CoS or evasion, let alone finishers. To each his own, but there is a degree of ergonomics involved in binding.
I think there's something to be said for doing the exact opposite, though. I've set up my bindings in the following way:
Main Bar: 8 buttons. In stealth, these are my openers (plus Sap, etc.). Normally, they're my instant attacks with low cooldowns that I only need access to when actually fighting someone. When I hold down ctrl, they become all of my finishers. Making it so that Finisher == ctrl in my mind allowed me to solidify the distinction between the modifier and not. I also have an 8-button bar that doesn't change, which holds my high-cooldown escape moves, ala ShS, Evasion, Sprint, etc. Final note is that on my main bar, every key has a similar function between states. I use ESDF for movement, with my main abilities keyed to b, v, and n, with b being major priority. I.E. in stealth, b is Cheap Shot since it's my main opener. Out, it's Hemo, and with ctrl held down it's Eviscerate. V has Garrote, GS, and Rupture in a similar fashion.
I have the feeling that rogue are one the classes that only need a few keys and I have no trouble binding everything I use on a g15 keyboard, with only 2 macro keys bound. Using the Shift key as a modifier gives you alot of extra keybinds. For example. Shift+3 is expose armor in my bindings.
I think we are coming from two different schools of thought. I also have a g15 and for wow I wish I could just saw those extra keys right off. Those keys are useless in pvp. I would never move my hand away from the movement keys long enough to use them. I also have smaller hands but unless you have very large hands I don't see how you could hit any of those keys even using your pinky without moving off wasd. My setup is geared 100% for pvp. Let's take your example of shift+3 for EA. For me to hit this combination on a normal keyboard I would use my pinky for shift and my middle finger for 3 this takes my finger off w stopping forward motion. If the target of EA is moving away from me I might get out of range and EA will fail and then I have to catch back up to the target and try again.
On the other hand for PVE movement and timing isn't that much of a factor and you can move your hand off to any button you want. Being 1 or 2 seconds late with a rupture might lower your dps a small fraction but it isn't going to be the deciding factor in wining.
What I did was I found all the keys I could press without moving my hand away from the movement keys. Then I put the most used keys in the easiest to reach places. For me this was my left hand thumb, left hand pinky, right hand thumb, and right hand index finger. These 4 fingers hit 90% of everything I need which allows me to never move my hand away from the movment keys. The keys I do hit which require me to move my fingers off of movement keys are either abilities that you need to be stopped for or are not dependent on the position of the target (first aid, potion, CoS, Blind,DT, etc).
I don't want to appear to be saying anyone is wrong. You should do what makes you the most comfortable and if you have a system that works stick with it.
These would be my general tips when trying to come up with a new scheme.
1) Put the most used abilities in the easiest places to get to.
2) Think of ergonomics. If you have to press a certain key regularly make sure your not going to get a hand cramp doing it.
3) Don't use two key presses when one will do
4) If you have an ability that you will only use unstealthed put it with a macro with something you will only use stealthed. This cuts down on your button needs big time.
5) Don't put out of combat spells/abilities near your hand or on your mouse. I have seen quite a few people put /use mount on their mouse.
6) If you are using a keyboard don't use wasd shift your hand to the right a few keys so your left pinky has more to do. I like rdfg. Most keyboards have a bump on f so it's very easy to tell your hand is in the right place.
I'm not sure if this has been posted yet but as of next patch (2.4) Shiv will be affected by dodge. No more Shivs through evasion. WoW Forums -> [BUG?] Shiv being dodged?
Originally Posted by Hortus (Post 3, Page 1)
Unless you have a different version of Shiv than I do, the ability doesn't say anything about not missing or being dodged. As it is not a finishing move Surprise Attacks does not apply to it either.
Am I missing something here?
Originally Posted by Hortus (Post 314, Page 6)
I've spoken with the devs and shiv not being missed or dodged is a bug and was never intended. The changes to the combat log revealed some problems with how this spell is coded and it is being worked on.
Apparently Blizzard was unaware for over a year that Shiv was not affected by dodge. Sometimes I wonder if they're playing the same game as us.
It would be nice for them to have fixed the model issue that allows for people to dodge and even parry attacks from behind, namely mutilate, alongwith this fix to shiv.
A nerf to Shiv, a very important ability in small brackets against warrior teams, now wheres the goddamn warrior nerf in 2.4?
Last edited by Tower : 03/14/08 at 6:33 PM.
Reason: grammar
To my understanding that isn't a model issue, it's an issue of server lag and damage calculation between the time an attack is made and the the time the effect is calculated. Like this.
Player 1 is behind Player 2.
Player 1 hits Mutilate. A nanosecond later Player 2 turns to face Player 1. Player 1 is no longer behind Player 2.
Because Player 1 was still behind Player 2 when Mutilate was hit, it registers. However, because Player 2 turned a split second later when the damage is calculated the variable for dodge is included, which sometimes results in a dodged ravage/backstab/mutilate.
Or am I wrong?
What's funny is they could fix this simply by coding Mutilate, Backstab, Ravage, Garrote, and so on to not be affected by dodge ever. Seeing as you can only make these attacks from behind in the first place there would be no harm in that. Of course, this still wouldn't fix the problem of dodged Hemos/KidneyShots/etc from behind, but it would be a start.
Last edited by OptimoPEACHES : 03/14/08 at 6:45 PM.
Reason: clarification
I think it is a model issue, but either way - it should be something they should be trying to fix. Especially when they're trying to make Mutilate more viable in both PvE and PvP.
I respec Mutilate every now and then to remind myself what dagger PvP was like (I PvE'd to PvP pre-TBC and was always daggers) and have had multiple mutilates dodged in a row (2 back to back whilst dancing around a nelf rogue with evasion up, while I was snared). This works the same with large boss models, you can be mutilating all day then you'll notice a parry in your combat log even when you haven't moved nor has the boss - parries not being possible if you're behind a boss but mutilate having the positional requirement.
Last edited by Tower : 03/14/08 at 6:49 PM.
Reason: I'm on a roll.
Oh. I've never done PvE as mutilate so I have no say on that. I do agree that something that game breaking shouldn't remain on live for so long though.
And how about that vanish? Still breaking from "incoming" auto attacks that never even hit you. Oh wait, that's working as intended. lololo
This Shiv thing is really bugging me though. At least HARP being nerfed was justified (and who didn't see that coming?). It was already bad enough that our only snare can be removed instantly by two classes that are commonly found in nearly all high-rated arena comps (Shamans and Druids) and resisted by everything else, but now I have to worry about every class being capable of dodging and blocking it as well? Nevermind that rogue vs rogue will effectively be reduced entirely to RNG in some parts.
Meanwhile Hamstring's big nerf is that Imp Hamstring is now affected by diminishing returns. Oh lawd.
Sorry if I sound like I'm throwing a hissy fit.
Last edited by OptimoPEACHES : 03/14/08 at 7:23 PM.
Well if you look at the numbers in the 3vs3 brakcket, that Drysc posted rogues are actually overpowered from the developers point of view. This is why they found two very subtle changes to bring rogues back in line in 3vs3. Those are the ShS bug fix (of which they claimed not being fixable) and the shiv fix, while Mutilate gets a nice buff. But regarding what Drysc wrote about (Shadow-)Priests the one spec rogues are tuned around is Shadow Step, which is definitely overpowered at the moment.
Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde
Hello! I'm new to these forums, and I have a question on the topic:
How well does mutilate performs in arenas, and BGs and what gear changes will I need to do if I wanted to spec it and be able to put out some decent damage?
I'm currently at 10,6k health, 409 resilience, 1552 ap (soon 1,6k when I get leg armor enchant) and 30% crit chance).
Well if you look at the numbers in the 3vs3 brakcket, that Drysc posted rogues are actually overpowered from the developers point of view. This is why they found two very subtle changes to bring rogues back in line in 3vs3. Those are the ShS bug fix (of which they claimed not being fixable) and the shiv fix, while Mutilate gets a nice buff. But regarding what Drysc wrote about (Shadow-)Priests the one spec rogues are tuned around is Shadow Step, which is definitely overpowered at the moment.
How is Shadow Step overpowered? HARP was overpowered but definitely not Shadow Step.
I think ShS is way stronger than HARP ever was. HARP was incredibly vulnerable due to its damage mainly coming from Adrenalin Rush, which could easily be countered. The way mages for example can be pressured isn't really comparable. Also ShS allows using a lot PVE gear, which gives the spec with the biggest mobility, damage (because of the gear it outdamages Mutilate), utility (stealth talents) and survivability (preparation, cheath death).
Mutilate can be on par in some areas, but only with certain setups vs. certain setups because of the very reliant burst damage.
Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde
03/11/08, 5:54 PM
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