RED got 12 agi also, not to be forgotten. Which may or may not be as good as 24 AP depending on who you ask.

And how is that pertinent?

Hi all,


What are the rogue gurus' opinions on an entry-level arena build for 2v2? Most probably with a Disc. Priest.

I was thinking of some form a ShS build primarily because I imagine staying on a target would be difficult.

As far as PvP gear, at the moment it's non-existent for my rogue; merely the blue PvP set, but I'm in the proccess of grinding 75k honour to stockpile for S4, as well as the irreplaceable items, such as this season's ring and the improved trinket.

Thanks and king regards

Well, I figured the discussion was mostly about the utility part of the meta so I just wanted to make a small reminder about the stat part also. For me the RED performance in PvP matters since I use the S3 helm for PvE as well.

I apologize if I went off track too much with my comment.

This isn't a PvE thread, so what gear you use to PvE with is totally irrelevant to PvP discussions. As I see it there are only two viable Meta options, and I listed them a few posts above with the reasons.

Ok sorry for mentioning I use my helm for both PvE and PvP.

It won't happen again.

Hard to do when for every post of actual interesting information is made there's 10-20 posts drowning it out about what people should spec their rogue alt and how they should gear them, or that they've come back to the game after X months, or they've decided to start PvPing after being strickly PvE. Then all the people with sub 1700 ratings come in and bitch about what is viable and what isn't.

I played a bit of mutilate, honestly I believe 41/20 to be much stronger than Sub variants in 2v2 and 3v3 - but still weaker than ShS if you have solid gear. Humans specing 41/20 are pretty mean though, perception generally means they don't have to spend those points in Sub to get semi-mediocre talents to avoid being sapped like a tool all the time, or sniffed out by every over class paired with a warlock (read:alot).

Being a rogue, and having a good friend who plays a priest whom all my arena teams revolve around, I'm still out on all the druid changes. Druids are still really strong. You still can't focus them without high risk of losing full momentum. Leashing them is a bit easier with their warrior counterparts due to the cyclone range decrease, but a smart druid is still more powerful than a very smart priest in 2v2 and 3v3.

I'm just gonna give that a shot. I'm not sure if anyone will find this particularly useful (I suppose it's kind of not ment to be), but I've just been speculating (with myself and arena partners, pretty much) where rogues stand at this point.

Most basic was back in S1 when admittedly rogues weren't strong enough nor did they have the gear to be "a top class", but to me it always seemed rogues really just wanted to be warriors: straight forward, hit for tons and don't die easy. To some extent that finally came through with AR/prep and RMP teams being able to dish out lots of damage, but apparantly this is not what the rogue class is about. Atleast, when you look at how AR/prep got nerfed and Shs made top spec by far, it isn't.

Now I'm only starting T6 content so I don't have the PvE gear some people have, but I suppose I am more offensively geared than avarage (4/5S3 + T5 legs, mostly PvE random pieces) but still my damage feels quite weak compared to mages, hunters and warriors. Now there's obviously moments where rogue damage is great (clothies with imp EA, serrated blades and executioner on top of S3 armor pen), but in general it just doesn't seem it's what my class is about.

Being deep sub spec it's probably a no brainer a rogue is ment to be playing a utility class rather than a tunnelvisioning one, but I'm interested in what you people think rogues can do in therms of raw offensive power. For example, can you replace warrior/double healer with rogue/double healer and still have reasonable damage? Can rogue/healer burst an other DPS/healer team like some warrior- or hunter/healer teams can? And do you think a rogue as a(n even) more straight forward "brutal" class would make it more fun to play?

PS. No RP about being an assassin etc please

as my experiance as being a pvp rogue i have found that 20/0/41 is the best spec its harder to get kited and it is alot easier to play. you might not be able to get in as much dammage but if you are well geared and have a bit of knowledge on how to play your class it will take you very far. as far as the moves you should use would be pre + cheap shot + kidney shot then after that completely depends on situation.

This is exactly the kind of post we just said we wanted to avoid.
There is no "best spec"
There is no "definitively easier to play" spec
AND YOU'RE SAYING WE SHOULD USE PREMED AND THEN AN OPENER? Man all this time I was trying to open with finishers. Thanks, buddy!

This isn't exactly pertaining to the topic of this thread, but I couldn't really find any other thread where to ask this.

I play 2v2 as ShS Rogue + Disc Priest. The biggest problem we have is with Warrior/healer teams; specifically Warrior/Druid and Warrior/Shaman.

I pretty much have a good idea on how to play against Warrior/Druid teams, although it depends entirely on how well my priest can handle the warrior. He does fairly decently, but full Vengeful geared warriors are still too much for him too handle.

The biggest challenge in 2.4 for me is Warrior/Shaman teams. Try as I might, but I just cannot DPS through a well-geared Shaman healing himself. Heroism + incredibly fast heals + instacast ghost wolf are beyond me honestly. My gear isn't the best admittedly (yet to hit 1850 for weapons, languishing around the 1800 mark currently) but I do have around 1800 AP/31.5% Crit and 4.8% Hit.

I need some advice as to how to handle resto shamans. They seem to have replaced resto druids as the top 2v2 arena healers in this patch.

You're awfully quick to dismiss the new Shaman changes, what with Crippling falling off twice as fast, instant Ghost Wolf, and to a lesser extent 1 second poison totems. Shamans are surprisingly hard to stay on.

No I get faked out way too easy, and with heroism up its impossible to dps through even lesser healing wave spam. My priest usually mass dispells heroism off the warrior, and I get rid of WF totems but even then I can't burn through a shaman faster than a warrior can burn through my priest. Insta ghost wolf combined with earthbind totem is pretty rough, and even as Shadowstep, I lose valuable seconds of DPS time by the time I can catch up. And yeah, I ALWAYS have EA up.

Again, I'm not talking about bad shamans who don't know how to play, but well geared shamans who know what they are doing. As for my priest mana burning or mass dispelling the shaman, not happening as long as the shaman pillar humps effectively, and the warrior knows where his hamstring button is. Perhaps I got unlucky and ran into a lot of well geared reform teams, but last night I just couldn't beat a Shaman team to save my life.

Funnily enough, I always considered Shamans to be the easiest of healing classes for me to kill, but it most definitely is not the case now.

I respecced after being lolstep for ages, to mutilate 40/21/0, it raised my 2v2 from 1860 to 1940 in exactly 10 games. I was suprised how good the burst was (even without rentaki) and how easy it was to stay on shammies and druids. I am playing with a resto shammy in 2v2 and I think I even prefer it over a druid.

U have to consider that your priest is doing something really wrong than vs a warrior. He should be able to stay alive for very long period of time alone as long as u kill WF asap. It might be either your gear or priest gear also.

Little tip, mindcontrol and gouge war so priest can fear out of zerker rage but its wrong forum for such suggestions.


Havent played for a while on rogue now since i dont have my warglaive rogue anymore but playing PMR or RshamyMR i must say we've been able to drop any druids in standard RWD teams within seconds even in bear form when i get heavily trained. Thats something i would never see as ShS, Muti is crazy.

All i know is teams with shaman healers are by far the hardest for my double rogue lineup, anyone have any tips for teams like shaman/hunter and shaman/warrior? At the moment we're just trying to rushdown the shaman, but with earth shield, the odd bloodlusted LHW and nature's guardian it's been tough.

To be honest, we were just playing for the fun, like we do every week, not caring much about the rating. I didn't get a single sap off in those 10 games I played today, but we still won alot off them. Full s3 shammies and priests were a breeze with mutilate 40/21/0. I had not trouble keeping up snd/EA and get off full kidney's all the time. The shammies we faced couldn't even get the poisons off fast enough to kite me. I think the only game we lost was against a shadowstep rogue with a druid, cause I just couldn't burst through the insane lifebloom healing which he always kept stacked. On 1800+ its impossible to get a sap off without MoD, it seems

Excuse me but what is this "mutilate 40/21/0" that you've mentioned twice so far?

Mutilate 41/20/0, geez, was it really that hard to see that I am making a typo? Oh, your lolstep daggers made me laugh so hard that I almost killed myself while drinking coffee.

We call that pseudolate, where he mashes backstab REALLY HARD and hopes the game registers it twice.

Thank you tower, I wanted to specifically address someone on that issue.

I am 20/0/41 and I am beating myself up over the EA, Lethality, and Poison dispel resist.

I have 5/5 Lethality, did not take EA, and have 4/5 poison. I am currently with a Warlock in two's and our rating has dropped down to 16XX. Basically the Warlock is a beast but is specd for 5's. I am currently only doing 2's and looking for a 3's team. A group consisting of hunter and paladin was open but I wasn't sure if that would be the right fit for me.

Do you feel staying this spec in two's is viable? Biggest problem appears to be sealing the deal. We can get the warrior down to about 18-20% but the druid saves him. Some teams we ripped through, but the ones where we lost the most it was always a close call.

Any suggestions would be great. Also, if it matters I am in the vengeance group.

The 15 Spi on his tunic is the better part of it.

Mutilate rogues are scary to fight now, it's like being back at 60 with the opening salvo of backstab + evis one shotting most cloth. Even as a warrior I hate turning my back to a rogue as soon as I see daggers.