Mutilate rogues are scary to fight now, it's like being back at 60 with the opening salvo of backstab + evis one shotting most cloth. Even as a warrior I hate turning my back to a rogue as soon as I see daggers.
Haha.
Well, actually, warriors were stil not that hard with lolstep, but its one of the hardest classes to take on with mutilate. I haven't tried a 5x/0/8 variant or something of mutilate, but I am sure that that performs better against warriors.
Well, actually, warriors were stil not that hard with lolstep, but its one of the hardest classes to take on with mutilate. I haven't tried a 5x/0/8 variant or something of mutilate, but I am sure that that performs better against warriors.
Well, you start swimming in combo points, and if I'm just constantly in range of you with SnD up, EA, and constantly bleeding I'm turtling up really quickly and it's downhill from there if I cannot get away.
The term 'lolstep' is really fucking dumb and I hope people stop using it here.
That being said I can't imagine how 5x/x/x Mutilate would survive better against Warriors would survive better than a 41/20/0 build. If nothing else you'd have 2% more dodge with Combat.
i've read through a lof of stuff and i'm still confused about the build. I have a lvl 23 and i want it made for pvp >_< i need agil main and stam for main stats? ummm skills kinda confused... poisons confused plz help me
i've read through a lof of stuff and i'm still confused about the build. I have a lvl 23 and i want it made for pvp >_< i need agil main and stam for main stats? ummm skills kinda confused... poisons confused plz help me
For leveling, I suggest you pick up a combat build. Once you reach lvl 40 you'll be able to get Adrenaline Rush which along with Blade Flurry is probably the best two talents you can have for leveling a rogue.
Stats wise, you want to focus on AGi, STA and to a lesser extent STR, and in that particular order. Of course direct bonuses like AP, and crit are nice as well, but not that easily found on lower level gear. And finally, dont worry about hit so much until you hit lvl 70. If you can get gear with hit on it, more power to you, but to a major extent its an end-game stat.
I think Mutilate has its place, but most likely you will loose against many other melees with it. Warriors are really tough to beat, if they are good, hunters, especially dwarven ones are the same menace they where back on 60 and paladins with their bubble just deny the potential burst, unless you get a lucky kick and lock their holy spell school, which won't happen against any decent one.
Warlocks and priests are a lot easier to kill, but I think in the end Mutilate works if you have someone in your team that the enemy one can't ignore. I still can't really decide where to go with Mutilate. With 41-20-0 I miss the faster restealth that comes with camouflage, 5X-X-X builds are really not a fun thing too play and is more of a support spec but very effective in that way, while with 43-0-18 I actually miss the 1,5 seconds longer on the solarplexus the most. Which brings me to one big point: Removing the combo point gained from solarplexus would in my opinion strenghten rogues in every place except duells.
Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde
I think Mutilate has its place, but most likely you will loose against many other melees with it. Warriors are really tough to beat, if they are good, hunters, especially dwarven ones are the same menace they where back on 60 and paladins with their bubble just deny the potential burst, unless you get a lucky kick and lock their holy spell school, which won't happen against any decent one.
Warlocks and priests are a lot easier to kill, but I think in the end Mutilate works if you have someone in your team that the enemy one can't ignore. I still can't really decide where to go with Mutilate. With 41-20-0 I miss the faster restealth that comes with camouflage, 5X-X-X builds are really not a fun thing too play and is more of a support spec but very effective in that way, while with 43-0-18 I actually miss the 1,5 seconds longer on the solarplexus the most. Which brings me to one big point: Removing the combo point gained from solarplexus would in my opinion strenghten rogues in every place except duells.
I think that is the solution to your problems. Solarplexus (gouge) is a very nice cc indeed, i rarely see rogues use it to its full potential when cc'ing multiple targets. I will usually just use that extra pt to snd while my energy ticks back up on the way back to my initial target.
I think that is the solution to your problems. Solarplexus (gouge) is a very nice cc indeed, i rarely see rogues use it to its full potential when cc'ing multiple targets. I will usually just use that extra pt to snd while my energy ticks back up on the way back to my initial target.
It needs to be undodgeable (or usable from behind) and unblockable to make it really worth the energy investment, while removing the combo points from its usage allows for more CC options in arena without losing your ability to retarget and use a powerful finisher it weakens 1v1 lockdowns (which is one of the few things we can do better than warriors on demand).
I would prefer it being dodgeable and remove the CP, but usable from behind, meaning there's some more room for skill in its use. Possibly a 5 energy decrease in its cost to help on 1v1 balancing. I think rogues are the only class to be penalized for positional requirements (backside for mutilate and backstab), front (gouge) and having huge dodge losses when you are unable to position behind a player. Which is all incredibly frustrating in a game where the addition of a hundred latency can mean an easy win or an easy loss.
Mutilate 41/20/0, geez, was it really that hard to see that I am making a typo? Oh, your lolstep daggers made me laugh so hard that I almost killed myself while drinking coffee.
Actually I did kinda feel bad after posting that, I wasn't trying to be a jackass. :P
My spec also makes me laugh all the time. I'm having a blast with world PvP with it, which is pretty much all I do anymore.
The 15 Spi on his tunic is the better part of it.
I completely agree! I'll get a proper enchant once I decide if I'm spending my arena stockpile on s3 or just waiting for s4.
As far as mutilate goes, 41/20/0 is still the better spec for Arena. It works best with lock/dru/rog because you gain the benefit of Paranoia which helps a *little* in the sap war. You'll still lose to ranged sap but it's better than nothing.
On the topic of gouge, it is definitely an iffy move. A decrease in energy cost would actually be more than enough, in fact this might be a better direction for the Improved Gouge talent. Rather than increased duration to economize the energy cost, an energy reduction to 35 would achieve a similar affect.
Speculation aside, I honestly don't think rogues need to much CC help at the moment, I'm pretty happy with the class as a whole.
Gouge:
I like the idea regarding gouge from Tower. Does anyone know if sap and gouge are now on separet Diminishing returns ? I remember reading from the PVE buff to sap and that it is treated now like a different effect.
Offtopic:
The language problem is sometimes there. When coming after long trips from abroad I talk sometimes English when talking to a salesclerk. It't the same here and Solarplexus is latin used in medicine language. I don't know if it's a common word in English. So sometimes I will mix up a few things. And yes - my home language is German. So I would love to get a hint from time to time, when I make grammar errors or use expressions, that don't really work in English.
Looking for an Arena Team on the EU-Tournament-Server
On our server there are exactly three other playing on the tournament server and they already have their team. So if anyone knows of someone looking for a rogue I would love to do some matches for testing. If an anouncement like this is considered inapropriate here then feel free to tell me and I will edit it out.
Last edited by Hildegard : 04/05/08 at 4:52 AM.
Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde
Gouge and Sap are still on the same DR. Seen the DR loads of times since 2.4 hit.
For example I was locking down a Resto Shaman earlier today and did CS > Kidney > Gouge > Blind > Sap and Sap only lasted 5s. Even if he had been Sheeped or Trapped before then the Stuns, Gouge and Blind would have been enough for the DR to fall off.
Except when playing 2vs2 with a shadow priest and perhabs when playing with a mage.
ShS is the best spec to play with a mage, Shadow Priest and warlock. It's the only spec for 2v2 dps really. Sure, you can succeed with others but your options are much better as ShS. The strength of 1 AR is the duration of 1 full CC, being able to wear a ton of PvE gear in 2v2 as ShS along with the mobility is vastly superior.
ShS is the best spec to play with a mage, Shadow Priest and warlock. It's the only spec for 2v2 dps really. Sure, you can succeed with others but your options are much better as ShS. The strength of 1 AR is the duration of 1 full CC, being able to wear a ton of PvE gear in 2v2 as ShS along with the mobility is vastly superior.
Shs is the best for 2v2 dps, its true. You need the survivability of the spec which mutilate lacks. When paired with a healer mutilate is an option, when there is no healer in your team (in 2v2 or 3v3), don't even bother trying it. I wouldn't not even think about speccing HARP again. The weak hemo's is the reason for it, I would feel gimped all the time.
Yes but when did HARP suddenly become so terrible? For the longest time, it was one of the strongest duel and 2v2 specs of ANY class. From what I can tell, HARP is still a strong spec, its just slightly less strong as a result of the loss of the 'second' AR. Yes ShS has all sorts of really great bells and whistles but most (I didn't say all, I said most) of said bells and whistles were there all along and as if by magic, the gimmicky stuff in sub fell by the wayside and was mostly a shits and giggles BG spec for the longest time.
Then recent patches came along.. HARP got nerfed slightly, ShS got a heavy buff and approximately 3488939384 hardcore rogues across the world suddenly think HARP is shit just cuz you lost some of your 'go-juice?'
Show of hands.. who here has 'stepped' (hahahah fucking ha can never say that with a straight face) to your target only to have them take 2-3 running steps forward or on the diagonal maybe, and be out of range?
A 41 point talent being defeated by any class in any situation by moving 6 yards that way --->
..is bullshit.
And I'm not saying it isn't a competitive spec and I'm not saying ShS doesn't have alot of mobility. Cheat death speaks for itself and dirty tricks is worth its weight in gold. Yet so many of the top rogues apparently got along just fine.. without deep sub.
So ok, ShS is the new FotM. I know this is because it really could be a good spec. But so far I'm hearing nothing solid on why 'lolstep' with its various limitations is THAT good.. and nothing solid on why HARP would magically no longer work, at least just in 2v2.
Yes but when did HARP suddenly become so terrible? For the longest time, it was one of the strongest duel and 2v2 specs of ANY class. From what I can tell, HARP is still a strong spec, its just slightly less strong as a result of the loss of the 'second' AR. Yes ShS has all sorts of really great bells and whistles but most (I didn't say all, I said most) of said bells and whistles were there all along and as if by magic, the gimmicky stuff in sub fell by the wayside and was mostly a shits and giggles BG spec for the longest time.
Then recent patches came along.. HARP got nerfed slightly, ShS got a heavy buff and approximately 3488939384 hardcore rogues across the world suddenly think HARP is shit just cuz you lost some of your 'go-juice?'
Show of hands.. who here has 'stepped' (hahahah fucking ha can never say that with a straight face) to your target only to have them take 2-3 running steps forward or on the diagonal maybe, and be out of range?
A 41 point talent being defeated by any class in any situation by moving 6 yards that way --->
..is bullshit.
And I'm not saying it isn't a competitive spec and I'm not saying ShS doesn't have alot of mobility. Cheat death speaks for itself and dirty tricks is worth its weight in gold. Yet so many of the top rogues apparently got along just fine.. without deep sub.
So ok, ShS is the new FotM. I know this is because it really could be a good spec. But so far I'm hearing nothing solid on why 'lolstep' with its various limitations is THAT good.. and nothing solid on why HARP would magically no longer work, at least just in 2v2.
Well, the slight nerf you are talking about consist of lowering the hemo damage by 15% (from 125% to 110%) and a removing the second AR. This isn't 'nerfed slightly', its a huge loss in sustained damage, which was pretty high for the old HARP spec. To get the shadowstep talent in the sub tree, you need to get 5/5 sinister calling which adds 10% total to the hemo damage, bringing it back to 120%, still lower then the 125%, but more sustained damage then the HARP spec. Shadowstep also brings you some other goodies, like the extra agility from sinister calling, the cheat death effect and even an attack power boost via deadliness.
This is the solid reason why shadowstep is better then HARP. Personally I rather be mutilate at this moment, cause I got bored of the shadowstep spec. Referring to shadowstep as 'lolstep' will likely get you a warning here, so it would be wise to use the term shadowstep :p
I agree with your arguments regardings HARP. But there seem to be players that can make it work at a very high level. Also both of the Shadowpriest/Rogue Strategy guides from the Arena Junkies website (which was recommended by his highness Gurg personally), which may of course be questioned, suggest HARP as the best build for this combination.
Look at Noxn's teammate The World of Warcraft Armory He played 0-33-28 the last time I checked him on the arsenal. He is now specced ShS, but this could result from respeccing for 3vs3. Maybe those too are exceptionally skilled players that take specs regarded inferior - in Noxn's case even by Tigole - and make them work.
In my humble opinion HARP can work and has still the best single-target lockdown abilities. Also when playing with a Shadow Priest you rarely are attacked as a preparation rogue.
0/33/28 or 0/31/30: Despite AR/Hemo being weaker than it used to be, it is still generally the best spec for this particular setup. It is the only spec with mace stuns, Adrenaline Rush, Preparation, and useful support talents in the Subtlety tree. Shadow Step is workable, but it is significantly less effective in many matchups. If you are Undead, go with 0/31/30 since you don't really need the Fear resist as much. If you are any other race 0/33/28 is probably better.
0/34/27 or 0/33/28
You'll always want nerves of steel over 4% AP. Resisting CC is much, much more important than doing a tiny bit more dps (keep in mind that 4% AP is not 4% more dps).
Last edited by Hildegard : 04/07/08 at 7:37 AM.
Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde
So I'm thinking of speccing mutilate myself but the problem is I don't have any good daggers. I have a few badges I could spare but not enough to get myself the new Mainhand dagger. I have enough for the offhand so i was wondering if since mutilate uses both offhand and mainhand weapons to attack as opposed to hemo/backstab/sinisterstrike if it would be viable to get the new The Mutilator - Items - World of Warcraftreward offhand dagger accompanies by a season one or season 2 mainhand.
I'm wondering whether it would ever be worth using [Shard of Contempt] over [Berserker's Call] in the arena? Obviously BC has better burst potential but SoC with all the expertise would buff your general damage against a lot of targets wouldn't it?
I hate when my kidney shot gets dodged by a clothier, in those moments I wish I had the SoC.
This weekend I've tried Shs build (usually I respec in combat mutilate for weekends), but I've had some problems against warrior/druid combo. I know that the lack of position requirement of Hemo should help me, but I felt like I was doing less damage than when I was mutilate, maybe becouse the slower MH stacks wound poison much slower and get dispelled easier too as I only have 3/5 VP now.
So... at the beginning we tried the old tactics we used against druid/warr: I stay on warrior, the priest dispels HoTs as much as possibile but the result wasn't exactly comfortable as we lost badly some games, as I wasn't doing the required damage. I was costantly using Imp EA on the warrior, to bring him from around 10500 to around 6500 armor and I was trying to keep SnD (to improved Wound Poison application rate) up as much as possibile. Is it better to use Rupture than SnD?
Then we tried to stay on the druid, but my bad CD management, the lack of Shadowstepping practice and meeting a very good druid/war team made staying on the druid quite difficult, as Hamstring (and its Improved version), Intercept plus disarm and some Roots really hampered my mobility.
In the end the priest respecced with Mind Flay, shorter AoE Fear CD and Reflective Shield. So our match ups against the warr/druid combos changed quite a bit: I stay stealthed, the warrior attacks the priest that shields himself and do some dps too to the warrior by dotting him and wanding or using MF, after a while the druid will have to show himself to heal his partner and I'll attack him while he's still in caster form. We won some games in this way as MF and blackout procs really helped me against the druid, but they where all tough (and the team we met were worst than the first ones).
Is there any "standard tactics" that Shs rogues use against druids/warr?
By the way I still haven't any T6 item, just the [Insidious Bands] from Teron Gorefiend. Sorry if there are many mistakes, but english isn't my main language.
04/03/08, 2:09 PM
plz help me
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