berzerked

This guy gave me an idea - I hate cookie cutter templates, I like to try something different - so I like where this guy is going. I decided to try a 5/33/23 template:
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Rogue -> Talent Calculator


I see the points he made about hemo, but the only issue I have with is:
1) If you're gonna choose hemo and still focus a lot in combat you are "wasting" a good chunk of the combats dmg abilities that add to evi and ss dmg.

2) I think being a mace spec is prolly better than a sword spec just cuz.. 5% to do an additional "white" attack is just not enough imo to count in pvp. While maces give you that 6% chance to stun which isn't that much either but coupled with +10 to maces == better hit rate.

3) This is kind of back to point 1, but looking at Prelios idea of going hemo and getting AR - all you are really doing is just swapping AR for CB (thought CB is a on 3min cooldown vs 5 min) but you aren't getting the damage/crit/combo point generation bonuses from Assasination. All you are really getting from Combat is more utility (imp sprint) and swapping AR for CB.

I would like other peoples opinion on this

Btw, this is an awesome msg board, love the level of knowledge here

 

Grunge

Uh, 5/33/28 is somewhat of a cookie-cutter in itself, I think it was Xom who used it to carry rogue/rogue to rather high in 2v2.
A bit of a different talent distribution though... Although I don't know what you're looking for with this build (Is it for Arena or BG's?). For BG's shorter cooldowns and Remorseless might work out I guess.
I'd go with something like though this for BG's.
However for 2v2 you're acting as support...so taking hemo is the choice imho.
And 6% isn't really that great, and freeing up 3 points is really nice because you do have other things to get.
So I'd go with something like this

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

 

Tosa

How about 0/33/28? I would think that 6% ap would be better dps than 4% crit.

Hold shift for focused movement.

 

berzerked

hmm, good points - I definitely had arenas in mind, not any specific bracket though, most likely 2v2 or 3v3.

So after you guys said this would be a support build.. i thought why? it's still combat, but the fact that it dwells so much into subtlety.

If thats the case, what about this build, which is what I originally planed on doing

Thanks

 

Grunge

Depends on the AP, at 1300 (avg pvp geared rogue I think) would be 78ap. Hmm I don't know. I used Hourglass over Bloodlust Brooch for a long time.

Well support as in you're not providing the main damage. You're there to lock the target while the other rogue burst on him. Combat-Subtlety is doesn't have the burst/sustained of a mutilate spec nor does it have the pure sustained of 20/41.

If you're going planning on pvp'ing with other classes (Warlock/Rogue, Rogue/Priest) then combat or Mutilate might be better choices.

About your build. I guess it's somewhat nice but the lack of crit (especially if you're only starting out pvp) will undermine it's value. I mean Seal Fate is only worth going for as Mutilate imho (2 attacks, 2cp's even if it doesn't crit.)
23/0/38 might be nice ( This to be exact). Last two points into Fleet Footed if playing without a healer(optional warlock) or Quick Recovery if playing with a healer (With warlocks the difference is 500hp only...). I really really like the snare resist so FF+Metagem+Enveloping Shadows+Surefooted = 35% nova/howl resist.
You could also drop Sinister Calling for this. It offers 30% nova/howl resist as well as 50% crippling resist (40% vs other rogues with MP).

There's really a lot different options and builds, so you should eventually go with what you're comfortable with.

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

 

berzerked

thanks for the break down grunge, this is the build I'm going to use:
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Rogue -> Talent Calculator

My next question is for anybody who thinks combat (20/41) build is substantially better dmg than prep/assasination build in the context of PvP.

Ignoring AR cooldown and all other cooldowns (cuz if we want to count cool downs, prep will win). I would like to understand why combat is considered sustained dmg.. when a prep build is considered support.. and lacking in dmg.

[Combat]
Aggression: +6% to SS/Evi
Surprise Atks: +10% to SS/Evi
Duel Weild: +50% offhand dmg

The above talents imo is what give combat its dmg. common is slice n dice really practical in pvp? who stands there and lets you auto attack on them? I mean if auto attack was practical duel weilding fury wars would be everywhere.. right?

[Sub]
Deadliness - +10% atk power == rougly +10 dps
Serated Blades - -560ac + increases with lvl, to ALL attacks. +30% rupture dmg.
Hemo - +15 to all attacks, 5 less energy than SS. so for every 7 SS you can 8 Hemos.

So ok, Combat does offer a little bit more dmg.. but nothing drastic.. at least in short term fights.. I understand in a long lasting 1 target fight.. combat will start to dominate.. but it just doesn't seem worthy when u are switching targets all the time.. And you loose so much control and awesome openers going combat for what seems a like minimal dmg gain (it's not that hard to re-stealth between targets to take great advantge of subs openers).

I see why mutilate builds are amazing dmg, and I can see why it's worth sacrificing control. But I just don't see what makes combat worthy enough to sacrifice the control/utility of sub and some of the nice things (fleet foot, +poisons stuff) from assasination that a prep build gets.

Somebody please explain to me what I'm miss understanding about combat.. because 20/41 seems like a popular build.

 

Glave

Hi,
thats my first post in this forum, and for any reason i can´t make a new Thread.
I have a question, and i´m sorry if this is mentioned in any other Thread of this Forum. (Search function has no matches).
My Question: I never had a 30/0/31 Specc, and now i want to play 2on2 Arena with a Frostmage. So i plan to specc Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft.
But i´m not sure what would be the optimun specc for a Frostmage/Rogue combo.

Here are the talents where i´m not sure what i should specc:
2/2 Fleet Footed vs. 3/3 Imp. Kidney Shot
3/3 Master of Subtlety vs. 4/5 Deadliness
Elusiveness i´ve not choosed, because with our combo in the most cases the matches wont have a duration of >1:30 Min after i blind somebody.
I would be very glad if i get any answers. If there are some else talents which you would specc different then tell it, please.

My Armory Link: The Armory

If i not wear my PvP Gear when you look into this link, here my stats:
Health: 12194 (+18 Stamina Gem that the Armory doesn´t recognize now)
Energy: 110 (5/5 Gladi)
AP: 1331
Hit: 46
Crit: 30,17% (With 19/42/0)
Resilience: 384

Thx, Glave

Ps.: Sry, for my strange English. I´m German.

 

Lyly

I just saw something for the first time ever today in an arena, and I'm wondering if it has been seen by anyone else. My gear at the time put me at around 17% hit, therefore yellow attacks should not be missing. However, I missed a Blind. I've never seen it miss before, and I'm wondering if anyone knows if it follows different rules than our other attacks?

 

sp00n

Against which target?

At the moment, Blind counts (to my knowledge) as a ranged attack, so the miss % should be the normal 5% against even level targets / players.

However if you tried to blind a shadowfiend, they have an absurdely high chance to be missed, even with special attacks.

 

Vanadi

The only thing I can think of is that you tried blinding another rogue who had evasion on.

 

sp00n

1) It shouldn't miss when evasion is on (evasion is only +dodge).
2) It can't be dodged anyway, since it counts as a ranged attack.

 

Avair

Evasion grants a (somewhat unique) ability 25% for ranged attacks to miss, not dodge. Blind is a ranged attack so evasion being the source of the miss would not surprise me, unless the mechanics are somehow special, which I don't think they are.

 

• Wodin

Well, you don't give them the option. Druids, mages, paladins, and dwarf priests are basically the only classes that can really get away from a rogue in a consistent fashion. Everyone else you can generally hold in melee range, and SnD is a large amount of damage when you're going to be working on running the opposing healer out of mana.

The control in a combat mace build mostly comes from the ability to link CC effects with regular mace stuns to create unavoidable CC. Removing the dodge/block/parry chance on gouge and kidney shot is huge. Blade Twisting, for all the crap it takes, means you have a 31% chance for every melee hit to proc some form of "stay in range please" ability, which is again huge as it keeps you on target. Combine with Improved Sprint, Improved Kick, and Nerves of Steel(second-best set of passives and cheaper than the assassination 20+ tier), and you've got a very good spec.

With regards to the blind thing - precision is melee only hit, and the PvP gear has diddly on it because they try to differentiate between PvE and PvP. So if you run full PvP gear you don't have nearly enough hit on ranged attacks to guarantee blind landing.

 

Lyly

I have the screenshot showing the miss on the player, and yes, it was another rogue, however it was a Miss, not a Dodge. Also, precision aside, in the gear I was running at the time (my pvp gear is bad currently) I had 203 hit rating. So any other ideas?

 

Ozzmar

Well I'm pretty sure that the chance to miss with ranged attacks is slightly higher than yellow melee attacks (7% I think), but I'm sure you would have surpassed that with 203 hit rating.

Do you have the other rogue's name? If so, we could check his/her Armory page to see if there were points in talents that may have affected your chance to hit him/her with the Blind (Heightened Senses, for example).

 

Lyly

Just checked the rogues armory, and she is 41/20/0. Another dead end :P Name is Mela, human female rogue, if you'd like to check yourself.

 

Grunge

Uh. There's no mystery. Avair answered it already. Evasion increases ranged chance to miss against you by 25%.
So if he was using evasion then there wasn't anything weird going on.

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

 

sp00n

Uh, right. I somehow had in memory that it only decreased the damage of ranged attacks by 25%. I think at some point it was like this (PTR?), but was changed later. So much for knowing my skills.

No. Ranged miss is exactly the same as melee miss (5% against level 70/players, 9% against level 73).
One thing I'd like to know though would be the effects of defense on the miss rate in PvP.


Hm, I'm not so sure about this.
Precision shows the same Aura applied as the Hunter's talent Surefooted (Apply Aura: Mod Hit Chance).
Although Precision sais it requires melee weapons.
Have there been any tests performed? I know there are different hit ratings for melee and ranged, but also for talents?

 

Tower

For a Combat build, keeping SnD up means 30% more poison application, white damage, mace procs and Combat Potency. It's extremely important to prioritize CP for SnD usage whenever you're not scrambling to keep a target in melee range with Shiv and KS. And while it's not as potent for a Mutilate build, Mutilate has so many CP available it's silly not to keep it up.

 

Ozzmar

Ah, I thought I remembered hunters needing like 7%+ for pvp, but I could've just been confusing that with something else. Thanks for the correction!

 

Angrenous

I know at heart I am better at fighting in PVP when I don't require position. The game just frustrates me when the visual information on the screen does not match up with abilities. With Combat, I am in your face, trying to kill you ASAP, and I like that.

But... here's the thing. I am afraid I am going to feel really guilty if I buy the Merc Glad swords instead of the maces. It's the "duh" choice. All the other rogues are doing it, why don't you? I like the sword spec proc and I think the maces are both trendy, dumb looking, and not nearly as good in a PVE situation.

Still, am I wasting my arena points on a sword? Am I going to have to get therapy because of buyer's remorse? When the hell do I PVE anyway? It's been hard enough saying goodbye to daggers forever, but I worked through that and I know I am a combat non-dagger rogue. What I can't come to grip with is whether or now I am really a SWORD rogue for life!? I've been using swords for 20 levels.... I really can't bring myself to switch to maces unless the whole elitist jerks rogue community makes terrible fun of me.

There. I feel so much better now.

 

Vanadi

I tried swords for most of season 2 because I wanted the swords for pve first. Later on I bought the 2 maces as well and the difference between the 2 types of weapons is huge. It really depends on what your main goal is though, if you play more pvp then buy the maces and if you play more pve then buy the swords.

 

berzerked

And thats the problem imo: "whenever you're not scrambling to keep a target in melee range" - it feels like you spend more time chasing your oponent and doing instas/ or using cp to lock them down. Feels like out of the 40sec+ snd you are probably going to get about 20 seconds of actual usage.. but i just think you give up so much utility/opening power for white dmg.

I'm def gonna try combat just to see how it works out though. I also notice that a lot of ppl say that you only get 1 or 2 times to open in a fight, and I think thats false..

Example: Say you attack a warlock/priest/war and you get aoe feared.. and even dotted. instead of just running back at them and attacking you can wait for about an extra 2 seconds and re-stealth.. yes even with dots on you.. as long as you are not the main target. You can run right up to your target and just re-stealth and open.. I used to do it all the time before I quit (I just started playing again.. hence my confusion about the popularity of combat).

Oh and if you want to say that your oponent will already be locked down for you, and you job is to just stay there and spam attacks.. well might as well go mutilate and get that nice frontload dmg.

As far as pve goes.. there are hemo builds that challange pure combat builds, check out this thread.

 

Angrenous

Just curious... does Mace/Sword combo spec result in offhand sword "procs" that result in an additional mace swing that could proc stun?

 

darchon

No, sword spec only works with, you guessed it, swords.