The first blind in any match is useless, because we have no abilities between us apart from that, that can be trinketed.
It's not useless, it forces a trinket if blind is used at the right time. If used properly during a spell cast it's a spell interrupt + GCD and trinket force. This in turn leaves the player whose trinket is down vulnerable to CC and lockdown. With Elusiveness, Blind is 1:30s, which means it is up before the next trinket (if the fight were to last that long).
On resist, I've recently toyed with the idea of going for 1/3 or perhaps even more (on the expense of Cheat Death!?) Enveloping Shadows.
While 1/3 + Surefooted would give a 10% Nova/Howl resist+other snares/roots.
3/3 would be 15%/20%, which is quite huge.
This would be mainly for my 2v2 Spec, since in 3's and 5's (not that I bother playing 5's anymore) the risk of getting instagibbed is a bit greater.
Any comments?
I have been testing specs using enveloping shadow's maxed out (at the expense of poison talents) I found it decent at best. The main problem is that its only useful versus aoE abilities like priest fear, frost nova. It's an awesome talent versus some setups but against others it's not even used at all making it a waste of talent points during such matches.
ps @loderunner: Hit is not an issue for me at all due to pve gear, and again with the setups I played getting snared wasn't much of an issue.
I have been testing specs using enveloping shadow's maxed out (at the expense of poison talents) I found it decent at best. The main problem is that its only useful versus aoE abilities like priest fear, frost nova. It's an awesome talent versus some setups but against others it's not even used at all making it a waste of talent points during such matches.
Pretty much the same situation with vile poisons, useless against setup who have no poison dispellers, gotta go with whatever gives your setup the most trouble
There's alot more setup's with poison dispells then aoe snares though.
Really though the only reason people spec Vile is because of Abolish and the poison cleansing totem. You don't need Vile vs a Pally's cleanse for instance. That said though, Vile has a much more pronounced effect vs Abolish and the poison cleansing totem than Enveloping does on AoE fears/snares/whatever.
Really though the only reason people spec Vile is because of Abolish and the poison cleansing totem. You don't need Vile vs a Pally's cleanse for instance. That said though, Vile has a much more pronounced effect vs Abolish and the poison cleansing totem than Enveloping does on AoE fears/snares/whatever.
Not really. If the rogue gets snared or CC'd, the pally will have enough time to cast 5 times cleanse and then heal. Is usefull against any kind of dispell IMO.
Is even more usefull if the rogue brings another quick off-hand with mind numbing.
Not really. If the rogue gets snared or CC'd, the pally will have enough time to cast 5 times cleanse and then heal. Is usefull against any kind of dispell IMO.
Is even more usefull if the rogue brings another quick off-hand with mind numbing.
I did not say it was not at all useful vs cleanse. Let me put it this way, if you were pondering specing Vile (assuming Abolish and Poison Cleansing Totem did not exist), or using those 5 points elsewhere (remember rogues give up on a lot of nice utility like enveloping shadows for shs, or all the nice talents in the assassination tree for mutilate) would you spec it? I surmise the answer would be no. People spec vile for Abolish and PC Totem, the resist for cleanse is just a side benefit.
And that said I have never seen a paladin waste 5 global cooldowns for cleansing in the midst of an arena match. It is just not worth it time.
It's not useless, it forces a trinket if blind is used at the right time. If used properly during a spell cast it's a spell interrupt + GCD and trinket force. This in turn leaves the player whose trinket is down vulnerable to CC and lockdown. With Elusiveness, Blind is 1:30s, which means it is up before the next trinket (if the fight were to last that long).
Right, but we don't have any other CC abilities. And what's lockdown? They might take a KS if I were to switch targets to them? Well, maybe.
It *sometimes* forces a trinket, and fair enough- can be used as an interrupt.... that's all it can ever do in my 2v2 setup. And yes, the second one before their trinket is back can be key... but I wasn't talking about that one
I understand the mats for the +20 agility enchant is a lot less than moongoose. If I’m too cheap to afford moongoose, how big of a drop off is the +20 agility enchant in terms of pvp, specifically in 2vs2 arenas for a DPS setup?
No, not really. The cooldown of Shadowstep is still 30s, it's solid mobility sure but even more mobility will always be more valuable than 12agility (and losing 10hit from Surefooted). Don't forget any spell or ability with a snare attached can be fully resisted if the snare is resisted, meaning 8% to snare resist means 8% frostbolt resist, frost shock etc. Why would anyone pick up 12 agility over a very useful offensive enchant (10 hit is hard to come by) and an amazingly useful defensive enchant?
Things like Imp Hamstring and Frostnova will forever be the bane of rogues, Shadowstep spec'd or not.
The italicized part is no longer true - iirc, the change was mage shortly after the patch in which the hunter talent surefooted was added to give snare resist. That aside, I agree minor run speed meta + surefooted is a great set up.
Two questions:
1) I'm interested in knowing if enveloping shadows has any effect on earthbind, frost trap (+entrapment), flare, etc. Aside from entrapment, I would imagine that these are not resistable effects. Anyone have experience?
2) Is RED (12 agi and 3% crit dmg) the meta of choice for most Mutilate rogues in arenas?
The italicized part is no longer true - iirc, the change was mage shortly after the patch in which the hunter talent surefooted was added to give snare resist. That aside, I agree minor run speed meta + surefooted is a great set up.
Two questions:
1) I'm interested in knowing if enveloping shadows has any effect on earthbind, frost trap (+entrapment), flare, etc. Aside from entrapment, I would imagine that these are not resistable effects. Anyone have experience?
2) Is RED (12 agi and 3% crit dmg) the meta of choice for most Mutilate rogues in arenas?
Cheers!
Any time you quote something the entire quote is italicized, so, maybe try bolding it instead. I can't conclusively answer on 1), but for 2) I always assumed the meta of choice for Mutilate would be the [Enigmatic Skyfire Diamond] to further reduce snares.
It's Enigmatic Skyfire or the one that gives stun resist. I prefer the latter...
Eh, that one requires at least 2 blue gems. I like to consider what the meta requirements will be and factor that into my decision. I don't wanna put blue gems in my gear
Any suggestions except farming Ashtongue reputation ?
I'd use [Bloodlust Brooch]. On demand Attack Power gain, for bursting through defenses.
So recently I've been debating if I should change some of my gearing around for pvp. I'm working on exalted with wsg, so this isn't really for arenas, but just general pvp.
In my PvE gear I got 1900+ attack power unbuffed
In my PvP gear its floating in the 1400+ area.
With my current pvp gear I have around 350 Resilance, but I think it might be a bid overboard, considering my low attack power. I'm running mutilate/combat, what can of balance should I be striving for? 300 Resilance? 250?
I'd use [Bloodlust Brooch]. On demand Attack Power gain, for bursting through defenses.
So recently I've been debating if I should change some of my gearing around for pvp. I'm working on exalted with wsg, so this isn't really for arenas, but just general pvp.
In my PvE gear I got 1900+ attack power unbuffed
In my PvP gear its floating in the 1400+ area.
With my current pvp gear I have around 350 Resilance, but I think it might be a bid overboard, considering my low attack power. I'm running mutilate/combat, what can of balance should I be striving for? 300 Resilance? 250?
I'd suggest using 4pc s3 and either Tunic of the Dark Hour or T5 pants, Angelista's+Lethality(unless you get lucky with ZA third chest ring) and maybe Belt of the Silent Path, depends on how low you feel comfortable with.
In S2 I ran with 190-210 resilience as mutilate, early season 3 I switched it to 250-275. But again, experiment and find out with what numbers you feel comfortable with.
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Why do I see people always talking about how many t5 and t6 they wear in arena's while all the top rogues are running around with full vengefull and over 400 resilience? I agree that if you are not getting nuked in a certain setup you can wear some pve gear (I use the new badge ring and the exalted shattered sun neck), but still, if people switch dps on you, you really need at least 350 to survive against a decent team, even when coupled with a healer. I don't see the use of having 1900 ap unbuffed in arena's instead of 1830 at the expense of resilience and I won't even think about going under 350 resilience.
Why do I see people always talking about how many t5 and t6 they wear in arena's while all the top rogues are running around with full vengefull and over 400 resilience? I agree that if you are not getting nuked in a certain setup you can wear some pve gear (I use the new badge ring and the exalted shattered sun neck), but still, if people switch dps on you, you really need at least 350 to survive against a decent team, even when coupled with a healer. I don't see the use of having 1900 ap unbuffed in arena's instead of 1830 at the expense of resilience and I won't even think about going under 350 resilience.
Pretty much any rogue with access to high end pve gear also uses that stuff, the ones you have inspected most likely do not have this option, but going 400+ resil as shs rogue f.e is just plain stupid.
Try checking my battlegroups top 3v3 teams f.e, we got 200 res dual glaive rogues running around left and right..
I run with 181 resilience and 10.7k hps. Quite frankly it isnt an issue and I tank almost every game in 3v3. Rogues have by far the most ways of just avoiding damage that resilience is overkill.
The gain to burst damage you gain from using t6 items is remarkable and well worth the trade off.
Arena matches are about momentum as much as anything else and one of the best ways of achieving that is by pressure via damage.
Well, the escape mechanics of a Shadowstep rogue only go so far, you can drop a lot of resilience only if your teammates are also dangerous when left alone. I've fought quite a few War/Rogue/Dru 3v3s with my RMP, where the rogue doesn't understand that he is a likely burst target. Warriors are easily controlled, Druids are too slippery to allow a warrior and rogue go beating on your priest in RMP, so we often just focus the rogue. If the rogue is wearing heavy PvE gear, he's very easy to take down. In the case of War/R/Dru I'd say you want a good amount of resilience and PvE jewelry.
Which is why setups like Dru/Lock/Rogue or RMP allow for some heavy PvE gear on the rogue as no team can really afford to leave a warlock or mage unfocused. A good team who knows a rogue is wearing a lot of PvE gear can drop him just as easily as a Paladin caught in a mass dispel or a druid with his instant heal and trinket down – it just requires a bit more knowledge on their part of the rogue class to know when CLOS has been used and Prep has been hit.
OK, so there was a post regarding the difference between AP and agility gemming for a ShS rogue that was posted on one of the PVE rogue threads, so I've decided to respond to it here. Here's the original post:
Originally Posted by kyd
My question is, what is the optimum sockets for pvp damage for a showstep rogue (10Agility or 20AP)
I did a few experiments on the spreadsheet including removing all raid buffs and changing the talents around (to include the subtlety talents such as deadliness and sinister calling) to see what effect that had on ideal stats/gems. The spreadsheet showed that 10agility was superior to 20AP, which I was kind of surprised at as most rogues socket for AP for pvp.
It then occurred to me that resilience reduces crit chance and damage done by crits. Im not sure if im correct but it seems to be that crit chance reduced has the same effect on agility as it does AP (as long as your crit change is larger than the crit reduction from resilience), therefore the reduction would not chance the preference of socketing for agility. However crit damage reduced does have a big effect on agility, as one of the damage increasing elements of agility is increase crit chance.
Basically I was wondering if it was possible to model in the gear sheet the effects of different levels of resilience on the target to dps done.
Im sorry if this has already been asked, I did look for info on this topic but found little I trust as much as the spreadsheet.
I've actually created a simple sheet that calculates the average damage you gain from an agility gem or AP gem for Hemo and mainhand and offhand autoattacks. This sheet is specifically tuned to a 20/0/41 build and makes a few assumptions in talents that you should have (5/5 Deadliness, 5/5 Sinister Calling mainly). It also accounts for Lethality, Murder, RED meta (if you have it), and your target's resilience, along with all your important base stats, which can be modified in the gray boxes on the sheet. Hopefully this is useful to some people.
Something to note is that this is only a gauge of the offensive benefit from the different types of gems. It does not make any accomodation from the defensive benefits of agility (armor and dodge). You have to make the decision for yourself in that regard.
I'm having trouble opening that file with Open Office. What version of Excel are you using, and is it even compatible with OO?
Oops, my bad. It's in the new Excel 2007 format, which probably doesn't play nice with Open Office. I just replaced it with a standard XLS file so let me know if you still can't get it to work.
Seems to work fine now, thanks. My only question now is for the resilience % box: is that the % crit damage reduce or % crit chance reduction?
Edit: Ok, I figured out that the Resilience % box is the reduced crit chance.
A new question: So I changed the resilience effect to 0 to test the crit modifier box, and I noticed that the RED meta gem, when selected alone, changes the crit mod to 2.06. I was under the impression that the RED meta should change crit mod to 2.03 by itself.
Murder increases the crit mod to 2.04, which I know is the right mechanic, and Lethality increases to 2.3, which also seems correct. What it looks like is that the 2 multiplier for murder is affecting the RED meta calculation as well.
04/24/08, 11:59 AM
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