Skyro

-Smart Rogues don't trinket KS, doesn't matter what spec you play.
-More frontal avoidance? Negligible
-Non-positional, use of prep and ShS are the pluses, and that's exactly why the ShS Rogue has to aggressively attack the Mut Rogue to put him so far into the hole pressure-wise he can't recover because if you can't do that and your cooldowns are gone then it is over. And it is not hard at all to Mutilate at least once every 6 secs vs an aggressive Rogue. It is only advantageous to the Mut Rogue if you play super defensive because generally I'll wait out your CDs. I'm not sure why you end all your sentences thinking I'm fighting some scrub ShS Rogue who doesn't know how to "dance" when in reality I've probably fought in this particular matchup far more times than you have given the prevalence of ShS Rogues.

-20% incoming healing and 30% (50% for crip) poison resist is why a Mut Rogue can survive vs ShS damage in a sustained fight, given the same support. These are huge. Combine that with 10% more poison application, and those wounds go up a lot faster between cloaks (and it's very noticable). A lot of your "negatives" for a Mut Rogue are negligible anyway. Cost on Shiv? We can just switch offhands.

I can only assume you don't use the strategy and are theorycrafting. Let me explain. The Druid has to pop because the Priest can just continually DOT the War and run away, and the Priest can solo the Warrior if he has no Druid support (very slowly anyway). They don't "rush in like madmen," the Warrior is forced to engage the Priest because of the DoTs. All the while I wait for the Druid to pop and if I open on him trust me, they cannot recover unless we royally F up somewhere. It isn't a guaranteed victory I'm going to beat War/Druid every game (largely depends on the opener), but Mut Rogue/Disc Priest > ShS Rogue/Disc Priest vs War/Druid. Ask any ->top<- team from either side. It is, in fact, one of the main reasons to go Mut because of the popularity of War/Druid. I question what kind of War/Druid teams you are facing considering you think all Mut has to do is get on the Warrior and make him go sword and board. Druids have a thing called Cyclone, and Feral Charge, and Bash, and all that adds up to your Priest eating dirt.

As for Rogue/Caster the strategy isn't the same and I never said it was. I use that strategy strictly for Druids because they are a very unique healer. Vs Rogue Caster both me and the Priest attempt to get into combat right away with the caster to prevent the sap. But first of all let me say Rogue + Caster isn't a popular set-up outside of Rogue/Mage, where in that case yes ShS has a distinct advantage over Mut in Rogue/Priest. It's the tradeoff you get for going Mut, you give up some advantage here for an overall advantage vs War/Healer teams (which are very popular). I can't recall any trouble vs any other kind of Rogue/Caster or Rogue/Healer comp, however like I said they are rare.

Sure you can claim I haven't "mastered" ShS, and I can claim the same for you with Mut (you almost admit as much from what you've said about it, most of it seemingly theorycraft). It doesn't get us anywhere, does it? ShS is largely managing cooldowns and shutting down their primary target, Mut is more about coordinating the burst (and yes, you have to be aware of 'what is happening around me'). If believing ShS is somehow a more skilled build to play makes you feel better about playing it good for you, but it has no effect on the viability of either build in arenas.

 

mofidik

Agreed to disagree

I did a bicycle ride to 1.9k in a few hours with a priest (we had no expirience playing together since we did warlock/priest/rogue in S2) me being Shs, that and the fact I'm the type that sits around bored watching arena videos rather than doing dailies, I can safely claim my expirience isn't 100% theorycraft.
That said, I can only recall one high rated priest/rogue video with a mutilate rogue (faction's) who carries the entire team by being able to put the warrior in D, and keeping the druid busy healing. It's like domino, Mutilate has high damage, warrior turtles, priest off DPSes/burns, druid has to focus on healing. I already agreed you'll win in the off chance you get a good opener on the druid, but after that it becomes a turtle game, and if you play that turtle game by trying to kill the druid, you're giving away wins (although you never stated you did, you did however state you don't sit on the warrior, what exactly do you do when your initial burst doesn't work?). I'm well aware mut is a favorable spec for priest/rogue selectively against warrior/druid because you can't switch without a cyclone/sheep/etc on the warrior anyway, aswel.



The rogue/caster setup I brought up was to illustrate how your approach can't possibly realiably work, since you claimed to do about exactly the same as a rogue/caster team would do against warrior/druid. Seeing how a Dpriest doesn't have the offensive pressure of a caster, and caster/rogue still not nearly always manages to turn the game that fast, you'll need too much luck to even hope for this to work.

Well, if you truly wish to turn specs into a personal matter, than I guess this makes sense. I was making statements directed at the specs in general and not players personally (nobody in the world has mastered either spec, afterall everyone makes mistakes and loses). Coordinating burst is the only skill a mutilate might have that applies less to a Shs rogue (even though a Shs has an even harder time bursting stuff down in CC windows generally), but then, knowing when to catch a target with his pants down is far trickier business that doesn't really apply to mutilate outside the luck of finding something in stealth. If you have any particular (rational) arguments as to how mutilate has an even/higher skillcap than Shs I'd be glad to hear, though.

 

Skyro

I already said what I do if I don't get the opener on the druid in cat/human in a previous post. I'd have to help my priest with the warrior and do a lot of target switching between the Warrior and Druid, hoping the priest can drag the Warrior out of LOS and/or get fears on the Druid, which is hard to do. I was pointing out you don't just "sit on the Warrior" 100% and expect to win.

Please point to where I claim to do exactly the same thing vs rogue/caster as I do vs war/druid. I even specifically stated in my previous post I do not, and I do not know where you make this connection as I never made this claim. And again, like I've said, Rogue/Priest in general does not have problems with Rogue/Caster, with the exception of Rogue/Mage, which I've already pointed out, again, in my previous post.

I wasn't making it a personal matter at all, I was only responding to the ridiculous claim of me not thinking ShS is superior skill-wise because I have not "mastered the spec." Actually, you were the one who made it personal saying things like that and questioning my experience and so forth (which is amusing, considering your ratings atm). But this paragraph here you're all over the place. Because coordinating burst during CC is harder with ShS that makes it more skillful? So harder = takes more skill? So since "catching a target with his pants down" (catching somebody in stealth? this is somehow hard?) is harder to do with Mut, Mut takes more skill? It is all subjective and a pointless excerise IMO. I was just pointing out that whatever you believe is the skill level associated with either spec has no bearing on viability in arenas because you seemed to infer that since (you believe) Mut takes less skill it is an inferior spec. There is no rational in that statement.

 

Tower

I'd interject and say "let's try to keep this thread on track" but it really hasn't gone anywhere in the last 30 pages, so...

The rogue class is a melee class, meaning we are bound/crippled by snares and latency. ShS has more closing options and no directional requirement, and with the right PvE gear can put out more damage than Mutilate without sacrificing too much survivability.

While both ShS and Mutilate are punishing specs, they are clearly so for different reasons. The reasons for Mutilate being so strong are very "passive". High output from energy use, high incoming healing rewards, high snare resist rate – all passive. The spec plays generally how rogues have been meant to play since launch; get the opener, never let go. ShS, and wearing PvE gear while specing ShS, has really changed how the rogue class works and with whom we can work with. ShS just plain has more "Active" counters to our worst enemy, being kited out of melee range. There are more decisions to be made playing as ShS as there as just more options to switch targets either offensively or defensively, or stay on target through an onslaught of CC.

So if you want to say "more options" to play a spec efficiently equals "more skill", so be it. Clearly mutilate and even combat maces have their place in Gladiator range in the smaller brackets. If you can get Gladiator+ with what you're arguing, more power to you. Otherwise I tire of the lack of experience when it comes to arguing A vs. B in this thread.

 

mofidik

I'm guessing this matter is becoming a bit too selectively although I think there's many things left to debate, but yes, things are largely dependant on one's personal expirience. Thinks that worked for you don't work for me, it probably happens the other way around as frequently.

I had one question though which isn't in any way intended to suggest you're wrong, but how do you target switch as mutilate?

 

Skyro

Target switching in general, or in the specific War/Druid match-up? Vs War/Druid it's more dictated by the Druid than anything. Some Druids like to kite as much as possible, so the Priest tries to drag the War in the opposite direction and/or out of LOS and I will try to pressure the War to draw the Druid in and get back on him. Other Druids like to pop in and out of Bear and stay relatively close so I do more switching in that scenario and continually try to force him in and out of bear and try to catch him in human with KS or Gouge him to set up a fear if possible. Obviously this is further complicated if the War keeps hamstrings on both of us.

 

Warklaw

So I a am starting a Rogue (Shs)/Mage (Frost) 2v2 arena team. I started awhile back with a Rogue (Combatm Mace) / Priest (Shadw), and then tried Rogue (Shs)/Priest (Dis) but did not get very far. For me it seems that the hardest part in arena is switching targets rapidly in order to throw a CC (blind). My main question is what tools (mods, tricks, tips, etc..) do people use to assist with this?

I have proximo, and tried setting up Clique (though this does not seem to integrate with proximo as I would like), and I do have a Blind focus macro. However I have found none of this to really speed up the CC. Blind focus is great assuming the match starts with both opposing player visable where I can set up the focus. But I find that once I engage in combat and the stealth character finally appears I am a bit to busy to set up the focus. I have not played anything other than 2v2 and I suppose I would be even more lost if I had to start switching up CC's on even more opponents. Perhaps I am just that unskilled, but I am still curious what people do to catch that druid/healer sneaking out from behind the pillar to erase all the hard DPS you just did to his Warrior/DPS friend?

 

rehtonAesoohC

Warklaw, to speed up your focusing, use Proximo's click function. You can set up it such that right clicking on the proximo bar for your target will set it as your focus target. As soon as you see a second bar pop up in Proximo, right click the bar and you can focus-blind.

 

Skyro

You can use a mouseover blind macro as well, it's what I use. I set it so that it sets the target my mouse cursor is over as the focus and then blinds or, if my mouse isn't over any target then it focus + blinds my current target. I do it this way so that the blind duration shows up on ClassTimer (good mod to have if you don't have it) since it tracks your cc's on focus targets.

 

rehtonAesoohC

One major flaw I can see with a mouseover blind is that you actually have to have them visible in order to blind. You can blind without facing (at least, I could the last time I played my rogue as of patch 1.9?), and if someone is behind you, you'd have to spin your view around, hover over them, then blind. That seems like it'd take too much effort for me.

 

Warklaw

To add one more issue is, is there any way to confirm that blind went off and was successful? I supose one would need to check the debuff list in proximo to see that the person got blinded. I use Pearl for my unit frames, and have it set that my main target debuffs (that I apply) come up as HUGE icons with counters, it would be great if there was a mod that shouted or put up huge mucking words that your target got blinded, kinda like combat text, is there any mod that can do this?

Perhaps I am demanding to much.

 

Skyro

You're right it does get hard to use it at times (jumping Gnomes come to mind), but I do use it in conjunction with the Proximo right-click cast feature. I've never been a fan of blinding your focus target macros because either you can do it through the proximo interface or if they were stealthed and proximo wasn't able to pick him up quick enough you'd have to waste time finding him and setting him as your focus regardless so it becomes sort of pointless.

 

drumbum

Actually, Proximo can do exactly this (and also announce when other CC debuffs are applied and removed from any enemy player in the arena match). Just enable "aura gains" and "aura fades" in the alerts box, and set your announcement location to whichever SCT addon you happen to use. I've been using this and I have to say it works very well for what I want.

 

Warklaw

The problem I have with proximo and the right click (cast Blind) feature is that it only seemed to work if I right clicked in proximo AND the bar I am clicking on is the current Target. Since generally I am not blinding the person I have targeted this seemed to be pointless.

 

mofidik

I find it far easier to set right click to set focus and keybind a focus blind and focus Shs macro. As soon as you got a target focus'd (which is quite easy with proximo) you can just stick to using your keyboard and not having to bother mouse aiming for stuff. I have mouse over Shs and blind macros, but I just don't find them that convinient, but they obviously have the advantage of not being bound to one target.

 

Tower

I just don't trust mousover macros. I do a shitton of right-click turning and I've found relying on them in twitch situations can lead to a misplaced blind, even if it's one of out 10.

 

Rath

Agreed, it seems convenient at first, but the first time you accidentally blind the wrong target and it potentially loses you the match you won't think it's so nice. I used a mouseover blind for a long while but recently went back to just using a focus or selecting the desired target to ensure the correct person is blinded.

 

Peekaboo

I need help on target selection for paladin/rogue 2 vs 2. I generally cc the healer and focus on the dps unless its a druid healer in which case I try to catch them in stealth and beat em up. This doesn't work that well for us. The two biggest problems are me getting taken out of los and my pally getting mana burned/drained/stung. I'm at my wits end having played a disc priest adequately previously. Even against two dps we seem to get cced and stink up the joint.

 

Grunge

Played Mutilate all the way to 2.3 and a bit after that.

I think this only applies when both rogues are wearing nothing but PvP gear. The outcome begins to favor the ShS rogue very rapidly as he adds more T6 and Sunwell loot to his equipment selection.

While I know how Mutilate has it's own niche (mainly as a Warrior-Druid killing spec) the problem is that Warrior-Druid is not the only setup you meet.
While it is very popular, not all top teams are it.
And how Mutilate-DiscPriest can beat Rogue+DPS at the top level is quite mystery to me.

Don't let me even get into the rogue-restokin match-up as that is just not funny.

Bottomline: Mutilate will never be top-tier in anything but as a specific counter to a certain comp. At least that much I can agree with.

There's nothing much else to say than to go for their CC.
Unless their healer is a priest, in which case you need to spray'n'pray. (PvE gear helps).

Best advice I could give: Start looking for a druid/priest.

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

 

Skyro

I agree more of less with your Grunge, if you have Glaives then going ShS is wise. Glaives are pretty much S4 weapons in S3 so of course it tips the scale significantly toward the spec that can actually utilize them. This will be less of a factor in S4 when nearly equivalent daggers will be (easily) available. I was speaking more on a general level, for the general populace, which is the bulk of the people on these forums. The general populace won't have access to Glaives and/or T6 either.

Your point about 2s about niches and counter-comps is interesting because 2s is pretty much nothing but counter comping at higher levels (well, moreso than the other brackets anyway). If you face teams you beat and you continue to queue, and stop when you start facing counter comps, you can push your rating pretty high because of the nature of 2s. ShS does have an advantage over Mut in Rogue + DPS (more specifically Rogue/Rogue & Rogue/Mage; Rogue/Lock is also popular but not a counter comp so not a concern) but your arguement here works both ways, ShS has an advantage over some comps and Mut in others (not just War/Druid, any comp where the match hinges on spiking during CC).

 

Locrius

Mutilate has considerably more counter-comps then ShS, notably rogue/x. People spec ShS not to counter-comp more, but to be counter-comped less. Mutilate does very well against a select number of teams, however, the amount of teams Mutilate does very bad against generally outweighs the gains.

 

Shadowed

Maybe we're just playing bad Priest/Mut Rogue teams, but we rarely lose to them as Warrior/Druid and the fact that they only get one Evasion/Sprint/Vanish and no Cheat Death makes it a lot easier to chain CC the Priest when the Rogue gets low and finish him, the hardest part about that match up is just not like the Priest fear you.

 

rehtonAesoohC

I have a question for you rogues.

I play on a disc priest (myself)/rogue team. I have fairly crappy PvP gear, having all s1 armor with all s3 offpieces (412 resilience). My rogue partner has 10,400 HP and 400+ resilience, and no access to PvE gear. He has both s2 maces, 2 s3 pieces, 2 s2 armor pieces, and the rest s1 armor.

The first week we played we sailed easily up to 1670, then stopped there and called it for the week. This past week we got facerolled by hunter/druid teams over and over again all the way back down to 1500.

I was doing my best to keep the hunter dispelled of HoT's and abolish, but by the end of the match, I was just running around with 0 mana with viper sting on constantly. Oh and the rogue is specced shadowstep. Do you have any suggestions?

Also, what are some counter-comps that we should look out for and avoid if possible?

 

Druss

I'm not much higher rated than you (mid 1700s) so may not be the first voice to listen to and i do play with a pally not a priest but it seems to me you should be focusing on using LoS to avoid damage yourself and on mana burning the druid. Your rogue should be glued to the hunter to keep his DPS down - you sure cant leave a hunter free to DPS and chase the druid (who WILL just kite). If you and your rogue can drop the hunter's pet that will help A LOT as well and, if the hunter is beast spec watch for his God mode and just vanish/back off until it wears off.

Also, if you start on the hunter until you see the druid pop then blind/sap/fear the druid to force NS and trinket then generally CC the druid when you can until you can line up an untrinketable fear/blind/sap while bursting the hunter you might just drop him inside that CC chain. With a pally ours is HoJ/Blind/Sap - which is pretty much trinketed out of at some point first time around but timed correctly second time it is devastating.......we've really only just started to get our timing right on this........and still can't beat teams with druids as a rule (we tend to win against double DPS about 80% of the time, non druid healer/X about 60% and anything with a bloody druid about 10% :P). As far as i'm concerned druids are a pretty brutal counter to rogues in general......but that may be because i'm just not good enough at dropping them - even with BoF and JoJ cyclones, instant cast heals, roots and bear form making killing druids hard as a rogue - especially if you are hamstrung!

 

Darlal

I only play in the 1750-1845 (yes, we hit 1845 but not 1850 grrr) range, but against that team here's what I'd do. I'd try to drag the game out as long as possible while looking for opportunities to gouge the hunter into a fear on him and the pet. As soon as they're both feared the rogue switches to the pet and you manaburn the hunter. Hunters have very little mana and become much less dangerous when OOM. With a MS debuff and dps on both the hunter and the pet (you are keeping dots up on both right?) you will run the druid OOM. Be sure to purge innervate and look for opportunities to mana burn or fear the druid as well (this is mainly to force him to use big/expensive heals). If you are mindflay-disc (which I've seen be very effective with this combo) you can also add your own dps to the pet. Killing the pet during a fear -> blind -> sap (or even just fearing the druid and pulling the pet out of LOS) is often enough. My only disclaimer would be that I play Rogue/Shammy so we play this fight fairly differently and usually win (unlimited mana via watershield ftw).