Has everything you want from sub if you don't want to go around spamming ambush, plus some of the nice early utility talents from assass. Will have to see how a shadowdance ambush spec works out, but I still don't think a backstab/ambush orientated spec will be able to compete.
As written, it would seem that Devious Poisons would for the most part prevent your poisons from being removed, if you are attacking the healer. (That is to say, they remove your poison, only to get it reapplied) This would be a huge boon when attempting to keep wound and cripple up on a fleeing druid (without this talent, a fleeing druid is very difficult to catch with mutilate).
On the other hand, if you spec Deadly Brew and Devious Poisons, you might not be able to apply Instant Poisons (/Deadly) to your main hand, for fear of dotting a healer that you want to keep CC'd. For example, with Rogue/Mage against Warrior /Paladin, if you attack the warrior with Instant Poisons/Deadly Brew/Devious Poisons, then the Paladin can get deadly poison just by cleansing the warrior, preventing you from sheep/blind/sapping her.
If you're content to always attack a healer, Devious Poisons seems much much better than Vile Poisons.
You shouldn't be running with instant/deadly in 2s anyway espcially against healer + 1 teams. I think the new poison talents are great. I think it will be awesome to have a full stack of wound, crippling, and mind numbing on a healer without ever attacking them. With the new poison talents you could just run with mind numbing and wound and have crippling proc by proxy which is pretty damn cool. I also think that these new poison talents are a giant "F you" to abolish spamming druids. I also see the Turn the Tables as a worthwhile talent. It makes a great filler talent to get to the end of the tree and I'll take a 15% chance to reflect any warrior damage or shatter combo done to me any day. All in all I'm pretty pleased by the new talents in the Assassination tree. I've yet to really contemplate the other trees at the moment.
I'll take a 15% chance to reflect any warrior damage or shatter combo done to me any day.
Is shatter/frostbite a physical effect?
I'd like to posit a backstab/ambush build: 19/0/52
I'm fairly certain of the points in assassination (this is a crit build, although theoretically a couple points in Lethality could be dropped), but less sure about the relative worth of Master of Deception, Camouflage, (a possibly nerfed) Cheat Death, and Wrongfully Accused. Since you are likely to start a match not as the first target (from stealth), it seems that Wrongfully Accused is a strong disincentive to them switching to you.
I feel that Honor Among Thieves is much stronger in PvE than in PvP... it's obviously worthless in 2v2 or 3v3, but even in 5s some of the time your group will be pillar kiting, being crowd controlled, or not critting because of resilience.
I'm interested in analysis of the sustained and burst damage of this build. I think even if the sustained damage is weak it could be a strong contender if it gives you and your fellow dps an opportunity to 100-0 someone while they can't trinket or soulstone.
You keep the stealth advantage of a Sub build, double cooldowns, and gain the burst and poison utility of the Ass tree. Of course you miss out on Hunger for Blood though.
Don't take Hemo for a Mutilate build. I'd also question Heightened Senses over Focused Attacks (energy on crits), Imp. Expose Armor, Murder or more poison talents. Otherwise, looks interesting. 20% extra damage from Dirty Deeds combined with 9% KS means a CB Mutilate at 35% HP is going to be giant spike.
Oops, Hemo was accidental out of habit of respeccing to ShS, so that's another free pt to put wherever. I really like Heightened Senses for getting sap/cheapshot on other rogues (especially NEs). But I also play double dps 2v2 where we see a ton of rogues and getting the opener can mean the difference between win/loss, so I suppose it's a matter of preference. Energy regen could be a better choice for a setup where sustained DPS vs CC+burst is more important.
nb. Fleet Footed has also changed to affect duration (which makes it much better). And Nerves Of Steel (30% stun/fear time reduce)
I like that Prep/Muti spec a lot. Prep (not to mention Dirty Deeds) is clearly WAY stronger than Hunger For Blood, which may even end up the sort of 51 pt talent that never gets taken until its significantly buffed.
I'm right in thinking it's 15% extra damage for 'free' whilst bleeds/magic is being applied to you? And almost useless when they're not? That's terrible because when a Rogue is under attack they are quite often also being controlled and can't do too much damage anyway.
I do think full Subt builds will still be popular too, just for the continuing power of Cheat Death and the other survivability stuff. Not to mention Sinister Calling/Deadliness, which remain excellent.
Mutilate is way more fun though, and the new poison talents are going to be hella fun. After looking through the Alpha Warrior, Shaman and Mage trees, there's nothing as new/interesting as in the Rogue one so far? I lie, actually- if Thunder goes in unchanged (incl. 200 yard knockback) that'll be something
nb. Fleet Footed has also changed to affect duration (which makes it much better).
I like that Prep/Muti spec a lot. Prep (not to mention Dirty Deeds) is clearly WAY stronger than Hunger For Blood, which may even end up the sort of 51 pt talent that never gets taken until its significantly buffed.
I'm right in thinking it's 15% extra damage for 'free' whilst bleeds/magic is being applied to you? And almost useless when they're not? That's terrible because when a Rogue is under attack they are quite often also being controlled and can't do too much damage anyway.
Actually, a "free" (takes a global) magic/DoT removal seems like one of the strongest 51 pt talents introduced yet in my opinion. It removes snares/roots and allows restealths in addition to reducing damage taken. The fact that it also increases damage done by 5-15% just makes it even better.
It's good against Druids and Mages I suppose... I still don't see it as being comparable to an extra Sprint, Vanish, Evasion and Cold Blood ... and Rogue "Execute", though.
Looking again I think 45 energy Backstabs and full Subt will be very strong too.
Another change I've noticed is that Deadened Nerves is now 1% reduction in all damage per talent point. Still not great (esp. as Assass now has so many great talents) but at least reasonable 'power' per point invested.
It does not work. All it does is Shiv with my current weapon but never swaps my weapons. Not sure if it matters or not, but I have it bound to Shift-X. Any help would be great, thanks.
For those of you with access to the 3 new pieces of Sunwell T6, what 4th piece of T6 do you plan on using with Season 4 gear? I think the obvious answer is the shoulders, for a few reasons:
1) you can't replace gloves, because of the Deadly Throw bonus
2) of chest/head/legs/shoulders, shoulders have the lowest resilience, so the drop would be the smallest
3) S4 shoulders take the highest rating to obtain
Is there something I'm missing, or is that what others are planning on doing as well?
this is a question im interested in aswell.
currently i use 4 t6 4 s3, and i use t6 helm to get RED along with the cats swiftness enchant i have on my t6 boots. when i use full pvp gear i use SSD in s3 helm + surefooted.
im having a bit of a problem deciding how i should gem in s4. if i want to continue using t6 helm (with RED) i need 2 blues, but is it worth it? is it better to use t6 pants for example? i see quite alot of people seem to go with that choice. or should i just change my meta in t6? SSD + cats swiftness is not THAT bad of a choice, but having 2x runspeed effects feels very wasted.
currently i use 4 t6 4 s3, and i use t6 helm to get RED along with the cats swiftness enchant i have on my t6 boots. when i use full pvp gear i use SSD in s3 helm + surefooted.
im having a bit of a problem deciding how i should gem in s4. if i want to continue using t6 helm (with RED) i need 2 blues, but is it worth it? is it better to use t6 pants for example? i see quite alot of people seem to go with that choice. or should i just change my meta in t6? SSD + cats swiftness is not THAT bad of a choice, but having 2x runspeed effects feels very wasted.
Gem for 12agi +5% snare root resist and cats swiftness with other boots for surefooted if you go mutilate any time.
currently i use 4 t6 4 s3, and i use t6 helm to get RED along with the cats swiftness enchant i have on my t6 boots. when i use full pvp gear i use SSD in s3 helm + surefooted.
im having a bit of a problem deciding how i should gem in s4. if i want to continue using t6 helm (with RED) i need 2 blues, but is it worth it? is it better to use t6 pants for example? i see quite alot of people seem to go with that choice. or should i just change my meta in t6? SSD + cats swiftness is not THAT bad of a choice, but having 2x runspeed effects feels very wasted.
Actually, I did some extensive calculations regarding meta gems for PVP recently and RED and SSD come out at a statistical dead heat in terms of average damage output -- and that is including the stats you lose by being required to use 2 blue gems. In short, using the RED meta is the same damage, but gives you some free stamina.
Combo basicly depends on two PvE geared Shs rogues zerging the living daylight out of something. If one or two of them are exclusively PvP geared (as in, not wearing anything of T6 quality), you can hope for a good split between a focus target and the healer, but against most setups you just don't have the pressure to keep your opponents into defensive play. PvE gear or no PvE gear is really light and day for this setup. If you don't have any, I'd strongly advice running with a warrior instead.
That said, if you insist on trying it, you can play it like any cleave team: If something's in cloth or leather; kill it.
Mutilate is way more fun though, and the new poison talents are going to be hella fun. After looking through the Alpha Warrior, Shaman and Mage trees, there's nothing as new/interesting as in the Rogue one so far? I lie, actually- if Thunder goes in unchanged (incl. 200 yard knockback) that'll be something
Note that as written, if you have 2/2 Devious Poisons, than the value of Vile Poisons drops a bunch. The assumption is that you want vile poisons because of the dispel resistance chance, rather than the increase in poison DPS. However, if you attack a target who removes poisons than you effectively have a 100% poison dispel resistance, as as soon as they cleanse the poison it gets reapplied to them. This makes fighting druids significantly easier.
I suspect that putting points in Improved Poisons (important for mutilate). or Murder is more efficient.
Now, it could be that I'm misreading Devious Poisons, or that it won't work that way when it goes live, but the above interpretation is my understanding from the tool tip.
Agreed, actually, I just hadn't thought of that. But yeah, it seems a bit OP as is.
Equally, when your target isn't the remover, you don't want them to be kept effortlessly free of poisons (killing your Mutilate DPS) - a Druid or Paladin taking all the poisons himself might not be so useful if he's not the current target.
Re: 3v3 - neither of us has any PvE gear of significance (I have some badge pieces (Nynjah Tabi, etc.) and T4) and in fact my co-Rogue only has ~200 resi anyway. The other Rogue and Druid are also relatively inexperienced. The weakest link is actually our Druid I think since although he DOES have T6 gear, he also has low resi and a lot of inexperience (and is playing resto/feral rather than restokin, though I can't decide what's best on that front yet). When S4 hits though he has a lot of points to spend- so that should redress the balance quite nicely.
Reading Serennia's write up- we're playing it as pure control at the moment; myself and the other rogue split our DPS whilst the Druid controls the third target (usually either a Warrior or healer). But yes, our DPS 'pressure' isn't great, we play it as control.
Our current main problems just come from the other Rogue or Druid being exploded early due to their relatively low HP/resi. Also, neither of us are human (obviously, since we're Horde) which makes opening on any teams with Druids/Rogues (i.e. all of them) rather tricky.
It may be, as you say, that this just isn't viable with 0 PvE gear, that our damage is just too low, but it's a team choice of circumstance... rather than choice.
What's the change then? I've tried it different ways and nothing seems to work.
I think the problem is that you have a poison on your weapon. You can swap weapons only if they're not already poisoned. Try using the macro in the prep period before the round starts. If it works, you know it's because you can't swap poisoned weapons once the match starts.
The reason for that is most likely because you'd be able to put mind-numbing poison on a super fast dagger, macro it in, shiv, then macro back your dagger that already had crippling on it.
I think the problem is that you have a poison on your weapon. You can swap weapons only if they're not already poisoned. Try using the macro in the prep period before the round starts. If it works, you know it's because you can't swap poisoned weapons once the match starts.
The reason for that is most likely because you'd be able to put mind-numbing poison on a super fast dagger, macro it in, shiv, then macro back your dagger that already had crippling on it.
You most certainly can swap weapons with poisons on them, and it's a very commonly used strategy among skilled rogues, too.
Oh that's news to me... The rogue I arena with tried doing this, and using the same macro he could switch weapons in the prep period, but afterwards, in the real game, the macro no longer swapped the weapons.
Just a question ( sorry if it had been already answered ) : does the enchant' Deathfrost is interesting for pvp/arena as a rogue ? I was thinking about something like Mongoose MH / Deathfrost OH
06/17/08, 6:33 AM
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