I would say that it's not worth it for you to use it. For one, Hemo is a main hand weapon attack, it does not take your offhand damage range into effect. Using the mace offhand will not only give you hit (which is few and far between on S1 gear, and you need 5% to be hit capped against other players), but it will also proc some well timed mace stuns, bro.

I browsed to find more information on armor penetration for you, but all I could find were the EP ratings (equivalence points, see THIS PAGE for more details). I'd say that there is not enough available to you to make stacking penetration viable.

Shorthand for "something".

No need for shorthand here, you can take the time to write things out so people can understand you.

Think it's a misstype of "Smth" or "Something"

Edit: Oh... Already answered, I just read "Shorthand for something.." as in something and not the word something :p

I knew what it meant. I feigned ignorance in hopes that he clued in and fixed that crap before I brought the hammer down.

Can someone tell me which spec is the BEST for pvp, and which weapons should i use, also what type of gems should i mainly use in my gear ..Thanks, really need some help xD

Err...................

If you want an answer on this just go to some random 2.4k + rated rogues armory and look it up..

You could check the armoury of about every rogue that has posted here. And if you go official forum style "whut gear whut spec?//?/" with your post, don't expect an in-depth analysis from our side.

Well after looking at the changes for the Brewfest on the PTR, Blizz has brought back the 2.0 speed dagger. http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...rewshanker.jpg

I'm sure it's a pretty good alternative to a season 1 or even season 2 shanker for alts or late bloomers.

I would imagine they picked this setup to countercomp PMR in a tournament setting.

Even though I totally agree with you about the PVE gear comment, I have to interject that on the TTR and in tournaments players are limited to only season 2 and honor pvp gear. Like I said, my first guess would be they picked the setup to countercomp PMR. Also since I can't seem to find the team in question, I can't tell if they are Alliance. But I would imagine perception would also aid in any druid + 2 team zerg to help them out with any of the other popular setups.

Well I reckoned the comment Tiiki made was about the MLG LAN tournament, which was also "dominated" by RRD, correct me if I'm wrong though. However, at MLG they had access to S2/T5, meaning they did run in PvE gear. And as far as I'm concerned, the US official TR realms are dominated by that new shadow team (troll Spriest/Rshaman/UAlock) and RMP, not RRD.

But yes, if indeed these official tournament realms are limited to PvP gear only (Are you sure? I'm looking at a rogue using the kael mace in a TR vid just now :O) RRD suffers from what makes it so strong on the TRs as well as live realms: GL finding two skilled 4+4 rogues.

Whats everyones thoughts on Wrath PvP?

Reffering of course to the new talents that we currently know about.

I was wondering, which is better for a sword rogue, because cheat death/shs are godly, but precision and dual wield spec and adrenaline rush are also very good. This is for an arena exclusive rogue (obviously the 20/41/0 combo is better for rading & pvp using the same spec).

The official tournament realms have the exact same gear choices as the MLG tournament had -- that is, essentially every drop from a T5 instance, including Kael'thas drops.

Well, if that's true, that's not so bad, since RRD owns spriest/rshaman/lock !

At the moment, it's weird, we're finding RWD easiest (just burn down the rogue and druid simultaneously) but RMP (supposedly easy for us?) very hard. The Rogue and Mage can kill our Druid (even with one of us on both of them) way before we pull off a kill usually ... and our D eats mana burns.

If we double team the Priest (with no purge, etc.), PS and other things mean, again, our Druid dies WAY first. Plus the longer it goes on the more fears and sheeps we eat

A druid should survive a mage/rogue longer than 2 rogues need for a (none dwarf) priest, save for the RMP rogue being heavilly PvE kitted. Kind of depends though, I don't reckon magi in the lower tiers won't be hard to burn down either, whereas the priest survivability is 90% determined by gear which marginally changes through the ranks. Should probably see your setup improving when your druid gets more experience or when you get a better one.

Yea, I'd have to agree with the poster above me. Zerging the priest or mage is a legitimate tactic and probably just depends on the gear level of the priest. If it were me, I'd probably just try to sit on the mage to force him to play defensive so that would give your druid some breathing room to kite/cyclone/dance.

Hey guys,

My main is a protadin but I attempt to rogue pvp and am wondering if anyone has done the math theorycraft on 2x mongoose over 2x 20 Agi in an arena setting only. Generally speaking mongoose far outpaces 2x20 agi in a pve setting, but the number of factors that impact its success are not relevant in arena. Lets say you are lucky to avg. roughly 2 ppm from double mongoose in pve under optimal settings, boss doesnt move, no snares, SND is always up, energy regen, increased chance to hit, no ice block, pillar humping etc. the relative ppm in arena has to be much lower just based on down time away from your enemy and the cc. In addition, even if you get a proc, the amount of time on target is generally going to be signifcantly less than the duration of the proc. As it is commonly accepted to not stack crit in favor of ap consistency it is counter-intuitive to rely on proc burst rather then ~45 agi up at all times. The brooch trinket is case in point here. Increasing ap at specific time lends its self to succesful burst on demand, when an opponent is low, stun locked etc essentially during the opportune times you actually have to burst an opponent vs. getting a proc when you rtring to hit a rogue that has evasion up. Maybe the question has been asked before but most times people focus on exe. vs. mongoose so if someone can point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it cause i really dont get it. and if its somewhere on the threads i apologize for missing it already.

thanks ahead of time.

This is all true, but you do need some PvP gear. Your armory isn't working for me at the moment so I can't see what all gear you have, but you need to have the 20res\2min trinket at the very least, and running with as low resilience as you're listing you really should get the 40res\2min trinket. If you don't want to put in the effort that's your choice, but I wouldn't expect very promising results if you choose not to -- just keep that in mind.

Two things you did not mention, which are very important, are your PvP spec and your DPS stats (and weapons) in PvP gear and spec. Gemming and enchanting is somewhat of a balancing act, so it's very difficult to give any advice when you only give us half of the equation.

HP sounds about right for now, but that's still pretty low resilience for my tastes, particularly if you're running a spec that's not ShS. Whenever the next patch comes out, it's definitely too low with the listed changes to Cheat Death (damage reduction no longer static, based on resilience). You may do just fine with this level of resilience against Healer + DPS teams, but once a 2 DPS team notices how low your resilience is you're going to get nuked hard.

You're not in 4pc S3\S4 and 4pc T6, so what they do does not apply to you. Many of them are also still above 300 resilience, which is more than double what you have; that being said, they have more leeway with adding DPS stats via gems and enchanting. As I mentioned in 1), you're going to be a much more appealing option when 2 DPS teams realize how low your primary defensive stat is compared to your geared Druid partner.

Completely ignoring resilience is a recipe for certain failure, if not now then when the CD change comes into effect. You're assuming that every opponent will focus on your healer, when the reality is that if they don't, you're pretty much screwed. Once they realize this, they'll do exactly that and you may find your rating start to tank.

The "benchmark" that I've seen most often is 300+ resilience, 10k+ hp, and then as much DPS as you can fit in. There is no necessary or best way to gem and enchant your gear, as it's determined largely by your teammate, your role, team composition, and your BG's level of competition. Some BGs you may have no trouble running a low resilience up very high because of weak competition, and some BGs even making it out of the 1600 bracket will be difficult with that stat distribution. My advice would be to determine first how much more resilience\hp you need. If you're having no trouble staying alive and your team is doing just fine with your 100res and 11k hp, then go for more DPS. If you find that you're not able to survive long enough to win the match, which is about what I'd expect when you start playing teams with more experienced and serious players, you may need to re-gem and re-enchant your gear for a little more survivability.

Example: This season I'm running with 283res, 10k hp, 31% crit, and ap in the low 1900's so far on a 2xRogue team. However, as we climb up in the ratings, I switch to a different composition or teammate, or if the BG becomes flooded with a new fad composition, I may have to adjust the balance of stats I have. So you see, it's very much relative. I wish I could give you a more cut-and-dry answer, but there isn't one: Stat choices are dependent on so many different things that while there certainly are wrong ways to do it (gemming STR), there is no definitive best way. Most of your choices will need to be made from trial and error to decide what's best for you and your team for where you're at right now, and even these answers will likely change for you the further into the season we go.

Ive been stacking AP, but recently Ive been seeing +10 AGI gems preferred. Which gems are you stacking now and why?

Also, after reading Mings short blog entry I'm wondering if specing MoS over Vile is a good plan. I tend to rush down opponents, (Even as ShS) and wonder if the 10% bonus to damage is going to be getter vs the wound/crip sticking better on Shams and Druids.

I went through Shadowpanthers http://shadowpanther.net/pvprogues.htm Armory Snapshot of pro rogues and found only Ming spec'd MoS. It looks like a good idea. Seems like that 10% extra dmg will proc a lot. Is there a cool down on MoS or does it just work out of stealth every time?

The cooldown on MoS is that you'll only get it 3 times + eventual restealths if you vanish twice in a match.

Arena matches are over so quickly any additional amount of DPS is going to help. If I use blind/stealth I can get back into stealth mode 4 times in a match (opening/blind x1/vanishx2) not counting the times I can just restealth because I have no dots or hits on me.

Trouble is I'm having a hard time evaluating the importance of Vile Poison over the increase in DPS using MoS.

Agreed.
My armory is working fine, as far as I can see. I'll try keeping my pvp gear in there.

I do have the 20 resilience 2-min pvp trinket. I needed it for Archimonde anyway.
I have the new Guardian pvp necklace.
And I have the Merciless throwing weapon (had some spare honor points).
Those 3 items are my only true pvp items.

I have 5k arena points atm. I'll buy the Brutal Leather Tunic this weekend. But I'll keep the rest for S3 or S4 weapons if I ever reach the rating. So my first problem is, how to gem my new tunic. (3 sockets).

I can do the balancing myself, I think, if I know what to go for. Is 12 stamina worth more than 8 resilience, etc. Can I ignore resilience (appartently not).

For arenas I spec subtlety/hemo/ShS of course. 20/0/41.
This is the spec I used before:
World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents

I have the 2 badge fist weapons.
I use ZA chest and shoulders, but I hope to get T6 shoulders this week, and the S4 chest.
Dory's embrace.
Badge bracers with res/sta enchant/gems, as my pve bracers have a lot of hit.
I'm getting the Belt of the Silent Path for pve tomorrow. My Don Alejandro's will be regemmed for pvp.
I'm using Grimgrin Facemask, with sta/res head enchant (as I have enough hit), and sta/res gems.
T6 gloves. Badge leggings.
I use the Karazhan boots for pvp, as I use my badge boots for pve. Karaboots with speed enchant and sta.
Ring of Deceitful intent + MH exalted rings, as they both have a lot of stamina. I could use badge ring.
I prefer my SoC over my DST, as the expertise makes me miss less kidneyshots, etc.

So atm, my stats (in combat spec) are:
10.8k health
102 res
1811 atp
168 hitrating (5% precision not included)
29.5% crit (including combat fist specialization, which I'll lose)
21 expertise (including combat expertise)
44 hasterating
500 armorpen (will get more with subtlety)

Whatever I do, with so little real pvp gear I will always be low on resilience. So I was thinking to not take Cheat Death, but spend my points elsewhere. You might be right about 2-dps teams. With my previous partner, we did fine against other healer/dps combos. My druid partner kept himself alive, I killed the other dps. However, against 2-dps teams, if they would target me, I would die quickly. 2-dps teams were definitely the hardest opponents. So I guess I need to gem and enchant mostly for resilience then.

My question is: fights against 2-dps teams usually last very short. Do you think people can see my gear in such a short time, and realize it has little resilience ?

I'm not in it for the long run. I want to reach 2050 (or 1800), get new swords, and stop playing arenas. I wanna get rid of my fugly badge fists. So I don't think people will start knowing and recognizing me. But anyway, thanks for the advice, I will focus on resilience in my gems and enchants.

But that is because having a lot of pvp gear will give you 300+ resilience anyway. So they have to work their way up to more dps and less resilience. I'm coming from the other direction. I have good pve gear, and trying to swap dps for survivability.

Battlegroup is Bloodlust-EU. Which I think is not famous for its high level of pvp. In S3, I've reach 1750 with an undergeared druid partner. Without really trying (doing the minimum 10 games per week mostly). But yes, surviving against 2-dps teams was the problem. Still I wonder, if I can dps one of them down before they can get me, my team wins.

Understood. But I think I'm gonna go the other way then. Gem and enchant for survivability, and see how I do. If my partner keeps me alive easily, I can regem/enchant for more dps.

Mmmm, trial and error is nice. But I had hoped for experience from the people at this forum. E.g. when you ask about pve dps, we can tell you exactly what to do, without any need for more trial and error. I had hoped pvp people could tell me what is better for survivability: 8 resilience or 12 stamina ? And yes, I understand the difference between burst (sta is better) and constant damage (resilience is better).

Thanks for your answers ! They have given me some food for thought.

After ~10-11k HP, resilience is better. That's your answer.