With that level of resi, you'd probably want an offensive chest enchant....

And once you have all that crit and natural armor pen., surely these days it's 5/5 Lethality, 4/5 Vile and no Imp Expose?

The reason I put resilience is because I personally think the cheat death nerf is going to be more dramatic than people are letting on. Being dropped to about 1k HP when cheat death procs means that with only 60%-70% damage reduction, you are still very killable. Your survivability increases dramatically as you increase resilience more and more.

Consider at 300 resilience, with 1000 HP left after a cheat death proc, you'll die after taking just 2556 damage. With 350 resilience, it's up to 3451 damage. With 400, it's 5310 damage. If you are capped at 444 resilience, it's 10,000 damage. You can see it scales pretty quickly.

Basically Cheat Death with 400 resilience is more than twice as good as Cheat Death with 300 resilience. Will this really force rogues to gear for PVP again? We'll see.

As for the gear spec -- Imp Expose is leaps and bounds better than Lethality. Having a lot of static armor penetration means you can down rank your Expose Armor, not that you should drop the talent points. Lethality is just a terribly lackluster talent.

If I'm not jewelcrafter , what would you suggest as a trinket : [Battlemaster's Determination] or [Berserker's Call] ? I even saw in Neilyo's movie that he uses [Madness of the Betrayer] , is it a good SdS trinket ?
( sorry for the poor english and the silly questions :/)

We dropped 5 games to Lock/Druid tonight, two of which were to UA Warlock; I will admit that one of the UA lock losses was a mistake I'm being told that we're retarded for not being able to beat this team. What is the strategy for beating Lock/Druid then? We try to kill the pet but between the CC's I get and the heals the Lock's pet gets, it's really hard to accomplish this. I seem to end-up in many Fears and Cyclones and I'm out of the fight way too much. If anybody can post a good strat that is simple, if possible, that would be awesome! Thanks!

As dumb as it seems - your best strategy is tunnel visioning the hell out of the warlock.

Have your priest chain dispell the warlock, chain dispell yourself, and himself of all dots. Prayer of mending to heal up all incidental damage.

Do not bother with the pet - just sit on the warlock, keep expose armor, SND up, and keep a 5 stack of wound poison. Your priest should be harassing the druid constantly with manaburns and running up and fearing him.

Do not let any fears go through, use kick on the fears, and alternate gouge/kidney shot when kick is on cooldown. Keep the druid on focus and use clos/vanish to avoid cyclones. Your priest should be dispelling all the roots instantly.

Basically as long as you stay on the warlock and shut him down you cannot lose. Your job is to simply sit on the warlock nonstop and make sure he never gets a single fear off.

This is a fantastic thread, and I wouldn't be asking this (since much has already been covered in serious depth) had things not recently changed a bit. I'm an enchant ignoramus. I've just started really playing arena seriously, and it's clear that I'll need to take advantage of all the proper stats. For a ShS swords rogue, what enchants on what armor is recommended? I see that resilience for rogues is becoming more important, the whole stacking AP vs. stacking agility still sort of vexes me. I suppose what I'm asking for is some kind soul to offer an enchant dummy some advice Thanks in advance. The only enchant I have so far is my mongoose on both swords -- which I'll have to get again once I upgrade weapons from S1 -> S2.

So I'm farely new to pvping wtih rouge.Atm I am combat specced swords but want to get a really good pvp build. I have very limited knowledge of the sub tree and would like to know what to get and how far into it etc

So, I'm completely torn on trinkets.

[Bloodlust Brooch]
[Warp-Spring Coil]
[Shard of Contempt]

I've been rolling with my Warp-spring Coil so far. I'm sitting on ~1300 armor reduction in my PvP set, roll with a warrior in 5s that spares sunders when he can and the extra hit is nice. I can't tell if the Use effect of Bloodlust Brooch makes it more valuable by giving me the ability to pour on additional pressure when I need it.

edit: For the record, we roll a Cleave set up in 5s, which puts me on a mage/druid/elemental shaman in most of our match ups. I'm positive that makes the Shard my weakest choice. It's those same targets -- high resilience by virtue of their class's hazards -- that I didn't even bother listing my Ashtonue Talisman.

Cat's Speed, Boar's Speed, Minor speed. Whatever you want, as long as you have some sort of speed increase.

As for trinkets, Berserker's Call is the best imo. Any trinket that has a proc can easily get wasted if you get CC'd, target gets away, etc.
Having a huge AP boost exactly when you need it is really nice, but it's up to you to get the most use out of it.

My Rogue/Priest team doesn't lose to Druid/Warlock teams anymore. As people before have mentioned, sit on the warlock in the situation you described. The warlock being UA hampers your priest's ability to dispell well, so the easiest way to heal both of you easily is just by bouncing a prayer of mending around while keeping renew rolling and power word: shield on cooldown from weakened soul.

If it's a soul link lock, you can sit on the warlock, same as mentioned before, but my team has good success with this strat:

Have your rogue sit on the pet while the priest (or whichever person has the pet on him) kites the pet around a pillar or the tomb in ruins of lordaeron. This will prevent the enemy druid from being able to CC well, and once the pet is dead, you can get off plenty of drink ticks if you need to. Make sure the priest has dispelled EVERY single buff off of the warlock in preparation for the warlock using Fel Domination to summon another pet. Once the pet dies, have the rogue shadowstep to the warlock and do nothing but auto attack while waiting for something to kick. As soon as he sees a cast bar on the warlock, kick, and make sure your priest is doing nothing but spamming his dispel magic button. In our matches, 9 times out of 10, this allows me to dispel Fel Domination, and he won't be able to resummon a pet, and it's game over with no soul link, even with the druid spamming heals.

Thanks to everybody for providing constructive feedback for fighting this comp. It's definitely a tough match-up but it sounds more winnable now that I've read through some of this. Sitting on the pet still sounds like a tough way to go, as we've tried that path and it seems to just set me up for endless CC. But we will definitely give this a whirl, thanks!

I've been trying to figure out which offhand weapon to use this season and ended up making a small spreadsheet (google docs).
Still can't really decide if the extra damage is worth the 1 energy difference, so I'll most likely be using the shiv.

With the advent of supercrazyhigh HP targets and warriors wearing 900 resil and so on, I'm wondering if a return to good ol burst dmg is warranted. No more of this 'average' or 'sustained' nonsense, I want 'wtfpwn' damage. You know, like mages have.

This is not about pve vs pvp gear. I very much plan on trying to get all the pve gear including glaives that people bitch about. I'm gonna be THAT guy. Fuck 'em all.

In particular.. fists vs swords, circa 2.4.3? Swords = higher median average damage per swing, but just how much higher? Anyone ever REALLY tested this? Meaning 10000 swings or more, ingame, not just with a sim that may or may not be on point?

S4 sword = 224-337 dmg
S4 fist = 196-365 dmg

thus:

max sword variance per swing = 113
max fist variance per swing = 169

halfway point (median average) of sword dmg variance (113/2) = 56.5 dmg
halfway point of fist dmg variance (169/2) = 84.5

sword base dmg + median variance average (224+56.5) = 280.5
fist base dmg + median variance average (196+84.5) = 280.5

Same goddamn thing. Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that they really do both hit for the same median average within their respective dmg ranges, because the variance range is broader for the fist, and therefore it can vary by a wider degree. However, as with deadly poison stacks and certain other things, we all know some things in warcraft just behave strangely sometimes.

So my question is, has anyone tested this ingame, with a reasonable number of swings, and has numbers to show for it?

Uh, what? Both weapons have the same average damage. I'm not sure where you got this notion that they don't. You even proved it in your own calculations.

He's hoping a wide damage range has a secret chance to 1 shot people or something I guess.

To the guy who swears there's something laying hidden in simple math- The different types of weapons won't affect your "burst" pick the mh you can stand to look at and get a shiv oh if you don't plan to raid seriously.

The way I look at it is that since Shiv is a utility move, you're going to use it when you need to regardless of how much damage it deals. Therefore, it makes sense to just look at the difference in damage done between them, and see if 1 extra energy is worth that amount of additional damage. I don't think looking at the entire attack's DPE is very meaningful, personally.

Let's take for example at 2070 AP (since you used that in your shivcalc):

[Brutal Gladiator's Shiv] --> 0.5*(151+2070/14*1.7)*1.02 = 205.2 (noncrit)
[Brutal Gladiator's Quickblade] --> 0.5*(162+2070/14*2.4)*1.02 = 263.6 (noncrit)

So, the [Brutal Gladiator's Quickblade] does 58.4 damage more on noncrits, for 1 additional energy. By comparison, a Hemo noncrit with a S4 mainhand and 2070 AP will do 745.3 damage for 35 energy, or just 21.3 damage per energy. So, the damage you gain by spending 1 additional energy on Shiv is equal to the damage done by about 2.7 energy of a Hemo attack. Clearly, then, the extra 1 energy spent with the [Brutal Gladiator's Quickblade] is a worthwhile use of energy.

However, there are other benefits to a faster offhand, too. Your offhand poison will proc approximately 1 additional application per 33 seconds (assuming Crippling Poison and that all attacks land in that timeframe -- obviously they won't, so it's probably closer to 45-50 seconds), and you will consume 1 additional Hemo charge every 10 seconds on average (again assuming no misses -- probably closer to 15 seconds in reality).

For humans, the expertise for maces and swords makes [Brutal Gladiator's Quickblade] the superior choice in my mind. For other races I think you can go either way -- probably preferring the [Brutal Gladiator's Shiv] somewhat (mainly due to Hemo charge consumption). In the end, I'd say it just isn't a big enough difference to worry too much about.

Whichever you find more enjoyable to play, at that point. Either option is going to be completely brutal, given your options.

Until you have better weapons you're going to be crippling, kick, blind, and stuns on a stick. Go with swords and ShS because it's the better utility build. Plus cheat death is absolutely hax with bad gear until next patch. There's nothing quite like getting a cheat death proc at 90% life.

I have read, skimmed, and looked though this PvP Rogue Forum, and have this question:

Is there any PvP Rogue discussion forum that takes an approach like the Roguecraft 101 thread?

What I'm interested in is solid stat weighting, and build comparisons for 2s, 3s, and 5s., Talent weighting etc.
I guess the meandering nature of this thread is not that much different than the others; however, the Roguecraft 101 thread at least has a summation of current knowledge at the beginning. Something like that in here would make this a much more valuable thread.

I know there are dedicated pvp specialists in here who could pieced together a similarly organized introduction. No one likes to have to spend time and money to reinvent the wheel so to speak. Not only that, but in reading through this, there are some solid points, they are just sprinkled amongst the anecdotal evidence and speculation.

I don't pvp much, as you can armory and tell, but I would like to participate more. I guess I got spoiled with all the PvE spreadsheets and theorycrafting. Given PvP resources like that, I know it would benefit everyone in making solid, informed decisions.

I'd like to second that -- as a relatively new rogue to PvP, I have I hard time gathering general information. Basic questions like:

- When I open on someone, what should I spend my CPs on first? EA? SnD? KS?
- What interrupts should I use the most? Kick obviously and KS when it's up, but what about Blind? Is Gouge ever useful?
- What are good strats for not getting kited? Shiv crippling? ShS? Sprint? Cloak? Deadly throw? All of the above?

I'm sort of doing what makes sense to me, but I'm sure I'm doing stuff wrong and it would be nice to have general info available for a lot of the basic questions.

And, my specific question: I'm having a strangely hard time getting kicks to land properly. A shaman is in front of me chainhealing with something fairly quick (lesser healing wave?). As soon as I see him start the cast I kick, the kick lands, but he keeps on healing over and over, and I don't really have any other interrupts (okay I could blind, but that seems a bit much for an interrupt). I'm too close to deadly throw, don't have the energy or am in position to gouge and KS is down. Do I just need to work on my timing? My latency is ~180, so it's not horrible. This happens typically many times a match, and it's often the difference between a kill and them healing back to full (which generally means we lose the match).

My reaction time in PvE is generally fairly good (I'm used to doing things like NSing heals and swiftmending), but maybe heals need to be anticipated more in PvP so you kick before you see the cast going off? That seems like a questionable tactic at best. Do I just need to practice and get my kick in faster? Maybe make sure I'm off GDC more?

Good casters will fake cast at least once to get you to waste your Kick. With my high latency (400-600 often) it is quite challenging for me to land a Kick on a caster who is faking short cast spells like Lesser Healing Wave. Or sometimes we just get unlucky and land it right after his cast ends. One very good solution is a weapon swap to Mind Numbing poison. For me this makes it much easier to judge his fake casts. As far as interrupts go in general, you have the right idea, save GDCs and be patient to watch his casts. Sometimes allowing one LHW to land on him with 5 Wound Poison up anyway is fine if it means you can reliably Kick the next cast. When your primary task is keeping the healer locked down, try to save energy so you can use a secondary interrupt if your first fails.

1) It depends a lot on the situation and your team's playstyle. Generally, I'll do CS->Hemo->ShivCrip->Gouge and make sure my teammate(s) are doing alright with their tasks. If they are and my CPs aren't on a Plate target I may EA. I'm ShS so I tend to use KS more to stick people in place or stop healing\damage than to set someone up for burst, though it can work that way too. Plate targets get Rupture unless I need to stop them from doing something (healing, killing my partner, etc.) in which case I may KS them.

I tend to not use KS on:
-Warriors: Unless I need to keep them off my teammate or burst them and they're on me, as feeding them Rage or healing through Second Wind doesn't make too much sense to me.
-Mages: Until they've used Blink.
-Paladins: If they haven't bubbled yet (unless they're casting a crucial heal).
-Rogues: That haven't been dotted or haven't used their trinket\vanish yet. If you CS and build to 5CPs and stun a Rogue, you run the risk of getting trinketed, followed by a Blind and\or Vanish. They can break off to chase your teammate or open on you easily if they do either, or both.
*Keep in mind some classes have stun resistance through talents, so KS is not always as reliable of an interrupt\stick as some of your other options.

2) You should use them all. Don't underestimate Gouge! It serves a couple nice purposes: spell interrupt, a "cheap" CP to stick a target that's not dotted (45nrg for 4s allows 2 ticks or 40nrg), buy time for ability cooldowns, etc. ShivCrip->Gouge can buy you or your teammate(s) some time to create distance to drink, chase, cast a large heal\CC, get out of LoS, bandage, or avoid damage. ShivCrip->Gouge will save a squishy's life from melee on many occassions, and ShivMindNumb->Gouge can add 5s+ to your target's next cast completion -- 5s can mean the game. Deadly Throw is great with the PvP Gloves. Running out just into DT range and interrupting a heal\cast is always an option when your other interrupts are on cooldown, you have the time\room, or you're snared\rooted and need to interrupt from range. Blind also works well as an interrupt, and oftentimes you'll find yourself using it as such. Blinding a healer that's used their trinket, or making them trinket your Blind and getting hit with another CC, is a great way to lock out healing and finish off a low opponent. Blind->Sap (Blind will put a target out of combat if allowed to go its full duration) is another good combination to keep someone out of the fight for long enough to win in a lot of situations.

3) All of the above, but be careful about when you use Cloak -- there may be a more crucial time to use it in the next minute. In my opinion, Crippling is the first line of defense, followed by Deadly Throw, KS, ShS, Cloak, then Sprint (because of the cd). Against some opponents, particularly Druids, you may have to use several of these to keep up with them. I tend to save Cloak to avoid CC that's being casted, Shatter combos, to drop DoTs that won't be dispelled anytime soon, or to avoid an instant Fear from a Warlock I'm bursting. But of course, you've got to do what you've got to do: if you need to stick on a target and have to use a cooldown to do it, don't be afraid to do so.

Gouge often, use ShS\Sprint to peel to your teammate when they need help fast, keep enemies Cripped as much as you can, use your cooldowns intelligently and often, abuse LoS and restealth when you can and it makes sense, stay on top of your interrupts, don't spam your energy just because it's there... That's all I can think of right now.

Faked heals will definitely do that, or if you're a little late\have high ping. As Buukka said, Mind-Numbing on a different weapon that you can switch to and Shiv with helps a bit here. When it comes to Shaman you can interrupt LHWs (and Flash of Light from Paladins), but you always want to have some form of stun\interrupt ready for Healing Wave, the 2.5s cast. This applies to all healers, but (probably) most importantly against Shaman and Paladins (Holy Light is their large cast). Not surprisingly, HW\HL are the spells they'll try to fake you with most often. You can't let one of those get off. If you've blown your interrupts on LHW\FoL, they'll faceplant a wall to avoid the Gouge and land a huge heal that may "reset" the match for you.