Ayiden

3) The vanish bug has been around for a LONG time, and most of it can be attributed to client/server latency issues. However, there are cases of Rogues popping Vanish, a large puff of smoke appears around the character, and dissipates with them never entering a stealthed state at all.
Rumors about why Vanish breaks have been circulating the WoW Fourms for quite some time. One of the most recent ones is of combat pulses (data being sent to the server from the client when you press an action button) having a habit of knocking Rogues out of any stealthed state. These pulses occur when a player spams an action button near a stealthed/vanished Rogue. These pulses care still created despite a player being in any CCed state.
Another, this moreso towards the topic of Stealth itself, is a macro that actually allows players to "detect" and spot stealthed targets. If I remember correctly, this has been a confirmed by the Blizzard Devs (Unfortunately I am currently at work and cannot provide a link since the WoW sites are blocked) as being something they are very interested in investigating and resolving.

4) As drumbum and Tiiki stated above, Blind and Cyclone are the only two that share that DR. Also, I just recently started doing 3s with an RMP combo, and the Mage informed me that Sap and Sheep also shared a DR (to clarify, seperate from the Blind/Cyclone one). I didn't really take the time to investigate it since at the time, it just meant I would stop my usual practice of throwing a quick Sap on the Warrior in hopes he'd break it with Trinket or Berserker Rage.

 

drumbum

The whole "combat pulses" term is just stupid. It's one thing to claim that spamming an attack on another player can cause the other player's vanish to fail (which I believe is not the case, but that's another argument), but to assume an understanding of what is happening at a lower level doesn't help anyone. State the symptoms to Blizzard; don't try to diagnose the problem yourself. (I'm not directing this toward you in particular, but rather anyone who uses this term.)

To demonstrate this, there was a bug not too long ago where if player A sapped player B while player B was able to target player A (for example -- if player A stood directly in front of player B the entire time instead of backing off after sapping), player A would unstealth for no apparent reason a few seconds after he sapped player B. This happened 100% of the time under the above conditions, but when this bug was first noticed, these conditions weren't so clear. At first everyone on the rogue forums claimed that player B could make player A unstealth by "sending combat pulses" to player B by spamming an attack while CC'd. Of course it was later revealed that player B didn't have to press a single button for the action to occur, and everyone was just making up shit to try to explain what they didn't understand. Combat pulses don't exist. Quit buying into this bullshit.

Another example of bullshit is the alleged macro that magically allowed a player to see stealthed targets at any range. This macro NEVER existed, but a lot of people assumed it must exist because they couldn't possibly have just been seen with Track Hidden, Paranoia, or Perception; or had a pet sent to attack them before they stealthed because they waited until the arena doors had already opened before they entered stealth. This whole thing was stirred up by a lot of people who didn't even know Track Hidden or Paranoia existed and complained about a hunter or warlock seeing them from so far away.

The macro that was reported on the bug report forums was a macro that bugged out your camera. This macro has existed for a long, long time, and while it is sort of fun to play around with, it most certainly doesn't affect stealth detection in any way (and really doesn't give you any sort of tactical advantage at all). In short, the stealth detection macro does not exist. Quit buying into this bullshit.

That isn't to say that there aren't bugs with stealth and vanish. But if we want Blizzard to ever find the problems and fix them, people need to start addressing the actual symptoms instead of making up their own idea of why it happened. It's certainly possible that there's a bug that allows a player to see stealthed players from range, but since everyone has decided to focus on it being some macro, no one is looking at the fact that hey, it just might be a completely different problem.

 

Ayiden

"Combat pulses" (really just information packets) and the macro as I stated were rumors floating about the community, and I merely stated them due to their recent popularity. Whether one believes them or not is there decision. Yet, it shows that the cause of all of this is unknown to both players and developers.
I do enjoy the fact that players are given a chance to speak up to developers about issues, and at least provide some possible explanation as to what is happenning. If it's found to be untrue, then it will be dismissed, but, in coding, no option can be dismissed without first being evaluated. Constructive feedback from a playerbase is always helpful, and I think if it continues, then we may someday get an explanation.

However, I think we may be getting a bit off topic of the threads purpose, and did not mean to cause such a derailing.
I think it is safe to assume that no matter what, Stealth/Vanish is buggy in its current state and will no doubt be in the future.

 

Annihilus

For a while Vile Poisons (5/5) was definitely a popular choice. Lately, I see more and more rogues going 4/5 or 5/5 Imp Poisons for the chance to apply bonus? Anybody try this and what's the current concensus? I can definitely see the value in getting a better chance to apply a poison.

 

Melador

Any advice for me (on my rogue) and my dpriest partner against teams with warriors? We lost a bunch to paladin/warrior and hunter/warrior tonight, and it felt mostly like it was due to the warrior constantly hamstring/dazing/stunning me off their paladin/hunter. I can generally handle most kiting with cloak/sprint/ShS, but I really wasn't putting the pressure we needed on the warrior's teammate, I don't think.

Also, vs shaman/hunter my dpriest partner got DESTROYED multiple times. I was on the hunter but couldn't cc him at all so he pretty much just ignored me and they took down my dpriest way faster than I could take him down.

 

moowalk

If the warrior is sitting on you against Paladin/Warrior that's great. Turn around and go toe to toe with the warrior. Your priest is free to mana burn/fear/mc and generally harass the Paladin. You'll probably be taking more damage overall, but priest has so many ways to shut down a paladin that I don't see how you could lose.

I'm not sure about hunter/warrior. Was that a typo? If not, just dot the warrior and pull him round a pillar away from the hunter. If he's not following, hide, he'll eventually die from SW:P. I've never faced this combo.

Shaman/hunter. I'd play it like we play against druid/hunter, except getting a kill while shammy is CCed is probably easier than with a druid. Sit on the hunter the entire match. I don't see how your priest could be dying when you're locking down the hunter with poisons and stuns. Blow your cooldowns early, since your priest will be oom in 3 minutes or less. It's a hard fight, but no one should be dying while your priest has mana.

 

Melador

Nope, not a typo, that was the team. I guess I'm too reluctant to go toe-to-toe with a warrior, feeding him rage. In the paladin/warrior team, the warrior wasn't exactly sitting on me, but he was close enough to daze/intercept/hamstring me regularly, and hamstring lasts a LONG time. Plenty of time for their paladin to get away from me.

Well he had bestial wrath so I couldn't do a thing to stop him, he utterly ignored me and just poured damage into my priest.

 

Calantus

It depends on your gear but you should be able to go toe-to-toe with a warrior once you're both geared. My rogue still has about 4 blues and a green but he goes toe-to-toe with S2/3 warriors all the time. It's a bit scary because they can RNG you down through mace stun, but if they don't get lucky you tend to dodge so much that MS falls off and your healer can easily keep you up while their healer has to heal through wounding. It's harder with druids because of abolish but for paladins it's easy enough.

 

Cos-

Yes. I used to roll with a priest and our whole thing we worked out as far as strategy went "make the healer have to commit to long cast heals and expose themselves to manaburn." Priest longevity is so terrible I think thats the only way around the hideous "ok which healer has more arena water" set up. Rogues with disc priest partners- You won't win against competant dps/healer 2s unless you can orchestrate the manaburn through devious dps tactics or your partner is just plain better at drinking and no one likes 20 minute water fights.

 

neoreziel

I have finally reach lvl 70 with my rogue, and I'm gettin pvp gear. I'm playin arena with a mage, I'm using shadowstep spec and s2 swords: Can some1 help me about a couple of things pls?
1) is improve expose armor talent useful? Everytime I don't have enought combo point for expose, I have always to keep stun up, cheap shot and kydney, in order to make my mage make burst or use eviscerate to finish off some1 or rupture in order to avoid a rogue to vanish ecc ecc. Better to improve poison talent maybe?
2) can u gimme any tips about rogue vs mage(frost ofc)? as rogue I thought a chain stun was the best solution but I've found it really hard. At the beginnin I started using cheap shot: my team-mate blamed me. So, following his directions, I've tryed with garrote and shiv but I was still in trouble. Everytime the mage blinks away from my stun, I use ST, but I get always frozed in place or chilled or frost-slowed and I'm not able to stay in melee range. I don't have ofc improved sprint, and if I try to use CoS he simply ice-block most of the times. The are some rogues who say that killin a mage is simple... I really cannot undestand how they can do it against a skilled and well geared one. Maybe I have to kill the water elemental?
3) which enchant should I have to use? executioner + mongoose or double mongoose?
ty

 

Plea

Actually most double dps setups are a lot harder for us, especially mage/rogue and double mage. Warrior/druid is very hard, warrior/shaman is almost impossible, hunters are giving us headaches; and the rest is pretty even. Any warlock or shadow priest team is relatively easier. Most matches we win end with fear-blind, and most matches we lose end with me getting bursted. I can't really say mana burn or drinking is the key factor; staggering cc is.

 

Morghulis

I'm actually doing 2v2 with a discipline priest and we've found many problems against restokin+rogue. The best tactic we found is to stay on the druid and cc as much as possible the rogue but still it isn't easy and a small error (or resist) makes the druid flee. Do you have any idea to share? We were discussing about respeccing the priest to a trispec mind flay and imp psychic scream... Could it be useful?

 

Complex

I don't think it'll help that much, we faced a priest / rogue who was using the mentioned mindflay spec, he didn't get a chance to be offensive at all with me sitting on him, and got maybe 1 fear off during the whole fight, I vanished / cloaked the rest.
It just meant he went oom quicker with slightly less efficiency from his healing spells. rogue couldn't peel me from his priest due to eating Cyclones whenever he tried to, and also resulting in my druid getting drinks off whenever the rogue wasn't there to pressure him.

 

impossible!

2.4.3 went live today with a line in the patch notes I hadn't seen before.

So uh, yeah. Was this added a while ago, and I just managed to completely brush over it every time I read about the patch? Or, was this added at the end of the PTR cycle right to the final patch that went live?

More importantly: Why the change at all?

 

Mearis

You really have to ask?

<manly> then my sister calls and proposes the one thing that has never before occured in my entire life

 

Alexsiss

Because every Battlegroup isnt varried at all? There are Battlegroups where lock/pally got vengeful completely legit. Throwing numbers about one Battlegroup is no proof. The cheat death nerf was needed the Sinister Calling nerf was not.

 

Calantus

That's not a BG breakdown, that's a world top 100 breakdown. I'm not going to argue the validity of the nerf but if you can't admit that rogue teams are very common and successful in 2s and 3s then I don't know what to tell you.

 

Alexsiss

Can you provide me a link to it then? I would like to know when this person is pulling their data from. Because as to all my trolling of ratings on AJ and Sk's websites there is no way that holds true.

 

Calantus

Funny you should mention AJ...

2v2 Rankings - Arena Junkies
3v3 Rankings - Arena Junkies

The original post about this is here: Season 4 first impressions:

 

Alexsiss

The numbers are def slightly off as for what i just checked. Im not saying rogue teams arent common. I'm not arguing that rogues are under represented but moreso that taking 5% off hemo was completely unneeded. i would still prefer numbers over a period time time rather than first 3 weeks of S4.

 

Melador

The problem is that they're nerfing the majority of rogues who aren't in the top tier because the top tier needs to be nerfed. It's a bad fix -- I'm still running in full PvP gear with no t6/glaives because my rogue is my alt, and I was certainly not overpowered. I'm basically a rogue like they were in season 2/3, and both my damage output and survivability took a hit.

 

panny

Wish they nerfed Hemo off the T6 bonue instead.

 

Mearis

Rogues with full PvP s4 and just badge items are still very powerful. S4 is amazing for DPS, especially if gemmed/enchanted offensively.

The idea that only the 'top tier rogues' are overpowered is completely flawed. At any level, relative to people at the same skill/gear as you, rogues are very strong. If you fight against better geared better skilled players, then yea, you won't feel very overpowered, but that's because the other players are better than you.

<manly> then my sister calls and proposes the one thing that has never before occured in my entire life

 

Calantus

Personally I think nerfing cheat death to a 2-3 minute cooldown, taking out prep (and fixing vanish so a single vanish is reliable), and removing hemo from the T6 bonus would be the way to go. Rogue damage is very high even without PVE gear, but honestly everyone's damage is very high this season without PVE gear. Rogues needed better anti-kiting outside of 5 minute cooldowns (ShS) and some survivability (cheat death) back when they were all combat maces. Blizzard just took it too far when they buffed sub and need to tone it back. I don't see the logic in linking "we buffed survivability and anti-kite on rogues and now they're overpowered" and "lets nerf their damage". HARP needed and got a damage nerf because the problem was its damage, sub needs a different nerf.

In that way I agree with the "its not needed crowd" because the exact change isn't the one needed, but I do definitely think there needs to be some change. If their damage is a problem then the problem is more than just rogues, it's damage itself in general. I've been hit by warglaive rogues in 4/4 and while it's painful it's no more painful than geared out DPS of other classes so I don't see why rogues specifically need a damage nerf.

 

Mearis

Because other classes don't have anywhere near the control that rogues do. Ret paladins have more burst than rogues, but they don't have cheapshot, kidney shot, crippling poison, kick and gouge.

<manly> then my sister calls and proposes the one thing that has never before occured in my entire life