Fold

Here's a breakdown of Cheat Death effectiveness based on resilience numbers: [Rogue] PVP Stat Standards/advice

It's in this thread, page 77. In your case, Cheat Death is probably not worth taking. Enveloping Shadows might be a good alternative.

Your questions are based on the assumption that you could actually do more damage with a tri-spec which, in my opinion, is false. Shadowstep gives you far more mobility than a tri spec which results in more time on target, and Deadliness + Sinister Calling buffs your damage a ton. My advice is definitely go with 20/0/41 or some variation.

 

Grunge

Fold, great link, it pretty much confirmed my own theories.

I think cheat death is really not worth it anymore, unless you're rocking 400+ resilience.
It was really nice while it lasted though.
As for me, I've been playing with enveloping shadows for the last few weeks, and to be honest I love it more and more. 20% nova and howl resist it quite nice (surefooted <3), it's not fleetfooted, but whatnot.

I think the only thing this really affects is Rogue-2 healer teams, pve rogue could previously "play" a warrior in that setup, not anymore.

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

 

pindle

Thanks Fold, specced to SS indeed and liking it well, do have to say I miss BF alot on moments but the extra monility of SS easily makes up for that. Got 205 resi so not specced CD, might try when I have some more resi

 

Cretila

Hello rogues. I made a similar post over in the 5v5 thread, but no responses so I'm trying here. Sorry for the redundancy.

I'm on a cleave comp for the first time this season and I'm looking for some basic strategies when facing the other more common comps (2345, 2346, euro, mirror). Should I be looking for a healer to lock down, setting up a hard switch, or just helping the shammy and warrior on the focus? Any tips you can give for maximizing my usefulness in this comp are much appreciated. Thanks!

 

Tender

So after mindlessly grinding the battlegrounds to get decent gear, i finally started doing 2v2 with another rogue friend of mine. Currently we have been both running 20/0/41 (Obviously wrong for a two rogue team).

I have been introduced to these forums and like what I have reading. I have been working a new spec for myself to up our burst.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Tell me what you guys think, suggestions would be much appreciated.

 

Jakani

I'm not sure why you think shadowstep is the wrong spec for rogue/rogue. It's the standard rogue/rogue build, actually. Rogue/rogue isn't about burst as much as it is about control.

Before the age shadowstep, rogue/rogue comps tended to run with HARP builds, so you could try that if you want. I would lose vile poisons, personally.

 

malthrin

You also might be happier with your damage if you and your buddy stopped gemming Stamina - PvP gear has plenty on it. Your teammate also has no run speed, which is a major problem. I've been doing 2s with my roommate's Rogue on my new Rogue alt as well (The World of Warcraft Armory) I'm Shadowstep, and he's sometimes combat, sometimes Shadowstep (whether he's bothered to respec from raiding or not). Combat + SStep is fine in lower brackets; the SStep Rogue can put up Expose and help keep the target from escaping while the Combat Rogue puts out unhealable amounts of damage. As you fight people with better escape skills, however, you'll both want to be Shadowstep for control.

 

hlcws

Depends who you play with. In 2 DD combo (SP + Rogue, Mage + Rogue) Combat Mace is good. Actually its the best spec to burn down the enemy warrior in the shortest possible time. If you play 2n2 with a healer, rather go shadowstep.

And if you want to wear pve gear, 4 pieces s4 and 4 pieces t6 is the way to go

 

Annihilus

This combo seems to be pretty sick. It's weird that I find myself being focused almost every game, almost makes me want to wear the S3 ring too. Any helpful tips / tricks to winning with this comp? It seems to be pretty damn tight for the most part, just have to get the CC and what not down pat.

 

Cheshyr

I'm running 2's, mage/rogue, and we're having some issues. We've got all s3/s2 gear, and we were the cookie cutter mage/rogue builds (he swapped to a different build recently for easier burst). We regularly lose to any team with a geared druid. We generally run about 1540, with spikes to 1590, and losing streaks to 1460. Your comment about running combat instead of ShS interested me, mainly due to frustration, and a desire to hit 1650. Would respeccing a 0/31/30 or some other combat hybrid help boost us to that next tier, or do you think we should just continue in our current specs and work on something else teamwork or playstyle related? We run over 100 games a week, and it's just not coming together right. We're both on Onyxia; I'm Halu and he's Cerel. I'm still working on badge gear for the Dory's Embrace and Angelista's Revenge.

 

panny

I'd recommend working on your teamwork/strategy/execution before respeccing. My rogue has slightly worse gear than you and hit 1700 fairly quickly in the first few weeks (with S1 in place of the S4 that I have).

Can you elaborate how Druid teams give you trouble? Who do you normally go for?

 

Cheshyr

With druid teams, we always kill the druid first. When the druid goes down, we win. If he gets away, we lose. Cerel (mage) goes out first to toy with the plate while I try to find the stealthed druid. When the druid unstealths, we cc the warrior and burn the druid. Sometimes it works... about 30% of the time.

I guess an alternate question is, what cc patterns do rogue/mage use to maintain cc? What do we do when the DR kick in and we can't cc them anymore? We know we need to work on strat and execution, but I'm not entirely sure what we're supposed to be doing, let alone where we're failing. Other mage/rogue teams seem to shoot up to 1700 fairly easily, so I can only guess we're doing something seriously wrong.

Also, I noticed you favor agi over AP, and other threads seem to indicate that's the preference with s3+ gear. Will regemming make much of a difference at this point?

 

panny

Gem choice really isn't that big a deal, and gemming AP means you have more freedom if you do decide to spec HARP.

Against sheepable targets, the general strategy is Sheepx3->Blind.

You need to be clearer about why your having trouble with a Druid with his partner CCed. Are you not putting out enough damage? What finishers are you using? Getting kited? Mage getting line of sighted? A Druid can't last very long before he needs to pop out of bear to heal/travel form. When that happens, a Shadowstep/Spring/CloS/etc + a good KS to keep him in LOS of a Shatter combo is usually enough to finish the job.

Lock/Druid is alot harder (pretty much a counter comp) and I wouldn't stress too much about trying to beat them (though it can be done).

Edit: Just noticed your Mage's spec is... non-standard. Does he respec for arena or is that what he normally uses? Because you need Water Elemental if you're Frost (I'd recomend 17/044). He also has a stam enchant on his bracers instead of spellpower.

 

Cheshyr

First off, he's not in Arena spec at the moment. He generally runs the 17/0/44 as you suggested. I'm not sure what his build is at present. :-p He likes to play around.

With the druid, we'll get him below 20%, and the we can't keep on him to interrupt or finish him. Sometimes the warrior will trinket a sheep and (charge/intercept?) me before the mage can resheep. Sometimes the druid just outheals our dps long enough for cc to end. I'm not sure if Cerel is using all 3 sheeps; I'll double check that. Frequently the mage will lose LoS via pillar, bridge jump, coffin.

Is Garrotte worth it for opening on the druid, vs cheap shot? I see a lot of people use garrotte for the silence+dot, but 3sec silence seems silly compared to 4sec stun.

It sounds like we just need to get better at coordinating and staying on our target. Sorry to waste forum space, and thanks for the info.

 

djhbrd

So my team (Rogue/Restokin, 1800-1900 in US-Ruin) still can't beat Rogue/Rogue. If anyone has some insight to beating this seemingly unstoppable setup, please throw in your two cents, dollars, etc. My partner, for the record, is Quittermike.

If I get a sap, the game generally ends up being a 50-50. If I don't, which often is the case, we lose. Period. I'm Undead with 5/5 MOD and the JC stealth trinket, but it seems that I have problems spotting other rogues even if they aren't playing as/with a human for Perception. If I do get a sap off, we generally open on that Rogue and can DPS him down before they can do anything. Winning when we start with a disadvantage (human opponents come to mind) is the hard part. I would say 75% of the Rogue/Rogue teams we face are exceptionally geared (4+4, Gladiators, probably 25-40% with at least one Glaive).

Considering the start of the game, we've tried having Mike stealthed, having him in Moonkin and in bear form for the extra armor. The problem is I get locked down for far too long. If I get sapped and they open on Mike, he's almost dead by the time I get out of the sap. If I trinket the sap, I get two blinds in the face. Game over. What can I do?

So what do I do if I don't get ultra-CCed? I try to tab target while spamming Shiv with Crippling Poison, but as soon as they get evasion/cloak up and shadowstep to Mike, it's basically over.

Is this a losing battle? Should we admit defeat and go back to destroying Warrior/Druid and Lock/Druid?

 

hlcws

Vs druid teams, just outdps his hots. Warrior cant do anything vs mage (druid has no dispel), just load up one shatter combo after another... he's only got one trinket to get out. When the druid comes out of stealth, counterspell his cyclone, then sheep and/or blind into sap.

And nobody should survive until DR against rogue/mage... it's all about burst while cc.

Tips for sapping sb with bleed on you: it ticks every 3 seconds... so immediately after the dot ticks you can vanish and sap.


I'd let them open on your druid so you have opener on one of them... premed + cheap shot and then kidney shot... if he trinkets, blind him and later vanish sap. Switch to the other rogue (vanish for another cheap shot if he's already got evasion running).

 

panny

You're not seriously talking about sheeping a Druid are you? Warriors are not that easy for Mage when they have Defensive Stance, Spell Reflect and Pillar Hug. Combined with Abolish Poison and HoTs, it's pretty unlikely you'll kill a geared Warrior. Counterspelling a Cyclone is also pretty hard if the Druid never casts it.

It is possible to beat really bad War/Druids by training the War, but it's not really reliable.

 

hlcws

What better cc is there for a druid than polymorph (cept blind which you will use anyway)?

anyway if you want, mage dps warrior and as soon as druid comes out of stealth cc chain warrior and try to burn drood...

 

Ticia

Travel Form - Spell - World of Warcraft

Sheeping a druid isn't going to accomplish a whole lot, especially since you need the mage to be using GCDs on dps if you want to kill someone before hitting DRs on all your CC.

Panny is right, you need to get the druid to pop, and then CC the warrior and burst down the druid. Ideally your mage can solo a warrior long enough to get the druid out of stealth, so you can just open instead of having to target switch.

 

hlcws

When he is shifting he aint hotting/cc'ing.
You need to gain time til rogue can reach him.

 

Ticia

I'm confused, first you say that the strategy is to sheep the druid and kill the warrior while he is CC'd. Panny and I responded saying that is impossible because sheeping the druid doesn't do anything. Now you're changing it and saying to kill the druid? Because if you are killing the warrior, then sheeping does less than nothing. Sure while he is shifting he isn't hotting or CCing, but guess what? Your mage isn't doing any dps when he's casting sheep either.

Also, sheeping really doesn't buy any time for a rogue to catch a druid. Unless the druid has the worst reflexes in the world, he'll just shift to travel form as soon as (or before) sheep hits and run away. So he loses maybe 1/10 of a second, and if your rogue can catch him after the sheep, he most likely would have been able to catch him without it just as easily.

It sounds like you have changed your strat, and are advocating killing the druid, but I'm just a little lost because you first said that you should CC the druid and now you're saying it's just to get time to attack him.

 

gigratu

My 2's partner (Disc Priest) and I have been having difficulty getting even up to the 1575 range, and I've been trying to pin down the cause. Since I don't have access to PvE gear, I've been upgrading mostly down the PvP path. But now I question whether I'm better off sacrificing resilience and stamina for more dps. Given that I'm hovering around 350 res and comparing that the awesome cheat death chart earlier in the thread, I don't think that I want to drop any further.

I've also read (here and at AJ) that ShS isn't the best spec for 2's with a Disc Priest. Would it be better to pick up the S2 maces and go combat maces instead of trying to pull more dps out of ShS spec? We have the most difficulty with double dps teams, especially double rogue, or feral + rogue, and I'm not sure if gaining mace stuns is worth giving up the mobility of ShS + the short cooldown on Blind.

 

Halfdane

I predict that before WotLK is released, the 51 level talents will go live, just like they did before TBC. It just makes too much sense from a marketing standpoint for Blizzard not to do this.

If we make that assumption, what are the builds that you would like to try out at level 70 with 51 point talents available?

One idea is 51/0/10.

I don't feel that Turn the Tables, Focused Attacks, or Cut to the Chase are very worthwhile for 2v2/3v3 PvP. I've heard that the -resist of Master Poisoner is worthless in WoTLK, but it might be worthwhile depending on when changes are patched in.


On the other side, we have something like: 10/0/51

Here I am a lot less sure of where points should go... Is nerfed Cheat Death more valuable than Waylay? If you have Shadowdance, is it worth getting Improved Ambush?. I've heard the point generation of Setup is extreme, what would you drop for it?


In either case, YOU NEED DAGGERS SOON. Most PvPers are running swords or maces. If you're terrible at PvP like I am, start saving now. [Paradoxically, once WotLK hits, you probably want non-daggers to level]

 

Luuca

I can't think of any better way to get used to the playstyle and positional requirements of running Daggers in a Mutilate or deep Sub build than 10 levels in new zones. Would it be easier to spam SS? Probably. With the amount of repetition it takes to become seemless as Mutilate, I'd think you'd be far ahead, in PvP, of others who respec from swords to Mutilate at 80.

just my 2cents.

Originally Posted by EJ Moderator You have received an infraction at Elitist Jerks. Reason: Useless Post ------- I'm not going to say he didn't deserve that, but it doesn't make your post any less useless. -------

 

Ticia

I disagree that dagger specs will pull ahead at 70. Sure the new talents will be available making it possible to pick up some of the more dagger-oriented talents, I think that the lack of the extra 10 talent points will make it so standard ShS Hemo variants will be better. Specifically, I can see dropping a few points from assassination to get the new stuff in Sub, like 100% Setup and Wrongfully Accused, but I think, especially for PvP, ShS Daggers is still going to be pretty bad.

As far as mutilate goes, deep assassination is already way bloated, and adding even more bloat to the high end of the tree without getting more talent points means you'll be forced to make a lot of tradeoffs. While I think mutilate as a whole will get better than it is now, I don't think it will become some overwhelming powerhouse until we have access to the next 10 talent points in the WotlK.


Luuca, as far as levelling daggers, the difference is that in PvP, you can jump behind someone and Backstab / Mutilate them without stunning or incapacitating them in some way. In PvE, you can't do that ever. So you are forced to do stupid things like Gouge->Run Through and Spin->Mutilate in order to kill mobs, which costs obscene amounts of energy and is really slow. I would much rather level full combat (Blade Flurry + SS Spam) and get to 80 faster, and then switch to mutilate and get my experience in actual PvP, than try to "get better" at it by fighting mindless PvE mobs for 10 levels and taking longer than my combat colleagues.