Asherz

Hey Guys,

I am curious as to whether I should be using a different MH for PvP. I'm basically a T6 Rogue that doesn't raid anymore, and PvP primarily as SHS wearing a select outfit of PvE gear for PvP.

I have every rogue weapon from Hyjal & Black Temple with the exception of warglaives. All of the weapons are enchanted with Mongoose, with the exception of my current MH, which has Executioner. Do you think it would be best if I switched to a different MH, the Syphon for instance? Or enchant my current MH w/ Mongoose?

If it matters, I primarily do 2s & 3s and I have been swapping partners the past few weeks trying out various combos from R/R, M/R, P/R & P/R/R, P/M/R

Given my gear and weapon options (not to mention the way I gemmed my PvE gear) I have been trying out some different specs but none seem to suit me as much as SHS with my PvE gear. Also trying different talent fillers now that I have ditched cheat death.

I'd welcome any other advice offered on my gear and gemming. I have the BT Trinket, DST, WSC in the bank, but have been using the Bloodlust Brooch for pvp, and I've been attempting to get Berzerkers Call for quite awhile now.

You know... I always hated gemming for +hit... it was so nice to say screw it and gem with just about all AGI

Thanks!

 

ROJO

Just a little input:

Personally, looking at your talents, I would drop 3 from lethality and at least fill out vile poisons and Imp EA with those points. Lethality kinda blows, vile is huge against druid or shammy, and Imp EA, depending on your passive Arm. Pen means you only have to use 2-3 CPs to drop them to 0 mitigation vs. 4-5 for untalented EA. I have recently become a huge believer in enveloping shadows as well; I can't tell you how many times I have resisted an AoE that would have prevented me from getting an opener, not to mention AoE fears and nova. I would go 3/3 there. You could drop a point from heightened senses potentially to fill out enveloping shadows; with perception you don't really benefit from the stealth detection boost as much as non-humans. With 94 resilience you are certainly right in dropping CD.

Definitely run with mongoose on both weapons. I don't really know enough about PvE weapons to point to which is best, but definitely mongoose combined with whatever weapon gives you the most total offensive power. You seem to be gemming as much as possible for agility, this is good.

Personally, although it is an expensive switch, I am a fan of SSD + surefooted instead of your RED + cat's swiftness (i think thats what you have). You get the same run speed, as well as a 5% snare resist which can certainly be nice. With so much PvE gear however, you won't take a lot of benefit from the +10 hit, so maybe you shouldn't switch after all. Just something to think about.

If you can stomach it, get the 40k medallion. You could really use the resilience.

In other news, my rogue/rogue team just broke 1800 after going on a 5 win tear! Season 3 weapons ahoy! My thanks go out to whoever that horrible enhancement shaman/druid team was that managed to get high enough we could take 26 points from them in two games without even having to try. Thanks for everyone who gave us advice!

 

Asherz

Thanks for the reply. I should have mentioned in my post that I do have PvP gear, and can swap out to get over 400 resilience if I wanted to. I have just been opting for the firepower instead.

As far as my current talent points, I was having some trouble with openers so I opted for the heightened senses - although previously I had enveloping shadows and rather enjoyed it. I may take your advice and drop points from lethality to swap around into something else -- although I'm not sure about the Imp EA - I'd have to look at what armor most clothies have and do the math but I have about 1100 armor pen w/o the executioner proc.

 

ROJO

Do bear in mind that you should be using EA on leather wearers too.....

 

Perilous

To give you an idea I have 4545 armor in full pvp gear, unbuffed.

So unless you are packing 2545 armor penetration, improved ea would be great against rogues, too.

Like the above poster said, it helps vs warlocks because they only have about 2200ish armor so you can drop a 2 pointer and use the other combo points for snd which is very valuable.

Felhunters have about 5500ish armor. More expose helps there as well. Tho depending on your burst you may be able to blow it up with full energy dump and 5 point evisc. If a healer is healing it ea on the pet and keep drilling it can really make them lose mana fast.

Tho running double rogue i guess you dont blow up pets, so nm

 

Storming

Concerning stealth detection..

Each char level = 5 points of stealth and 5 points of stealth detection, up to 350, same as with weapon skill defaults and so on.

Master of deception is 3 stealth points per talent point, for a total of 15 points of stealth which is the same thing as being a lv73 character.

I illustrate this because people always get the above part alllllll wrong.

.....

Anyway, any two characters start out being able to detect a same-level stealthed player at 5yd. For every level (one level being 'made' of 5 points of stealth or stealth detection) of difference plus or minus, a player will detect another player at a shorter or longer range, going in 1 yard increments.

So lets say you're just the average lv70 joe. I'm a rogue with 5/5 MoD which gets me that extra 3 levels (15 stealth points total) of stealth, so I'm a lv73 where stealth is concerned. That's 3 yards in my favor, in other words its harder to detect me, so you can't see me until you're 2 yards away, instead of the default 5.

My question is, if the smallest increment is known to be 1yd, can it go lower? It seems like a night elf rogue with its racial + 5/5 MoD would have their lv74 equivalent stealth and therefore be capped. So is ANY further stealth via gear/enchants/whatever a waste? Is the 1yard increment an absolute limit? Is it possible to go undetected until 0yd, until an enemy is standing on your face?

 

panny

My assumption is that it can. You can test this with Vanish, asuming it works in adding stealth levels the same way.

 

drumbum

Did you test this yourself? I'm not disagreeing with you, but I was just wondering if this is based on "what you heard" or if it was actually verified by someone, as I've never really found any conclusive evidence posted about it before.

 

Doovad

Sup all

This issue has gotten me three times during arena matches. Blind missed on a rogue that has evasion up. My hit in pvp gear is 114, over the hit cap. Does evasion increase the chance for attacks to miss even though the tooltip states it as dodge?


I forgot that ranged attacks cant be dodged... and the ranged part is missed...

 

Zure

Read the tooltip for evasion rank 2 again. It adds 25% chance to be missed by ranged attacks. This was added some patches ago.

 

moowalk

Your explanation breaks down when considering a >5 level difference from the PoV of the lower character.

 

drumbum

Actually I believe it has been this way since release, except that it was nerfed from 50% to 25% in patch 2.0.3.

 

Arindelest

Pre-BC, Evasion did not add any chance to "dodge" ranged attacks (that is, for them to miss), if I remember correctly. In the initial round of BC changes Evasion affected ranged attacks at the same rate as melee attacks, but it was later nerfed down to 25%.

 

nightryde

Hi, I am interested in an guide/write-up for PvP Rogues which covers DPS and stun cycles which are effective on different classes-- to land a killing blow!

It is too difficult and time consuming to go through 80 pages of comments to extract just the right advice on this subject.

If anyone has a bookmark or page number to such a write-up please let me know. Thanks!

 

Luuca

There's a lot of really good information on exactly what you are looking for right HERE. All you need to do is start there and read through it.

GL!

Originally Posted by EJ Moderator You have received an infraction at Elitist Jerks. Reason: Useless Post ------- I'm not going to say he didn't deserve that, but it doesn't make your post any less useless. -------

 

Annihilus

I started doing 2v2 with a Dreamstate Druid, actually was full Moonkin for the first few games, and we did well and won about 67% of our matches up through 1756. This week, we've just bombed! We ran into several well-geared Warrior / Holy Pally and Warrior / Resto Druid teams and lost all of them. Even got dominated by a Mage/Rogue team, so sad.... Anyway, I've tried to look-up strats on DS Druid/Rogue and I haven't found much out there. Arena Junkies has some info, but for many of the strategies, people are just arguing back and forth on what's right and what's wrong, it's confusing. Are there any other good strategy sources for PvP? If not, anybody know good strategy information for DS Druid /Rogue?

Also, I have 2piece Brutal, 2piece Venge, fail merc shoulders, 4/5 Guardian at about 413 resilience. I've been thinkng that I want to just bank points for when, if..., we hit 2050 rating. Is that a good idea or should I just get my gloves and pants at this point? It's hard to tell because I've seen full Brutal rogues with weapons and 5/5 Venge rogues with S4 weapons.

 

mofidik

I doubt saving for weapons is a good idea. If you're capable of hitting 2050 in the near future, your personal skill and that of your partner is easilly enough to steamroll though sub-1.9k rating, particularly since rogue/druid is a very solid setup atm. That doesn't mean you won't be seeing 2050 in perhaps 4-5 weeks, but by then you've probably been wasting points over the cap anyway.

As for strategies with your setup, the way you described AJ tactic reviews are optimal for learning. The idea is that you and your team mate form an opinion with help of discussions by the veterans from AJ, and from there you figure out if that works with your team's gear, style and battlegroup. If you'd click a setup and read "do this, then this, then this, then you win (78%) or lose due to RNG(22%)" you've read a terrible tactical review. Also, try downloading movies from rogues that run your setup, they're far more detailed than written surveys, are more entertaining and give you general tips how to play a rogue.

¬(-.-¬) maek stabs!

 

Melador

So I played some more with a much more pvp skilled disc priest friend on my Rogue, and we didn't do so hot, mostly for two reasons:

a) My interrupts weren't great.
b) My damage was really low.

Now, my gear's not the greatest, but it's not THAT much worse that most rogues in the 1600 bracket, and there were a few matches where an opposing rogue would triple my damage. And one-on-one vs a rogue I'd almost always get destroyed -- I'd be lucky to get him under 50% health before I died.

Some of that is probably just good use of cooldowns, depending on whether I had evasion, prep, vanish, etc up. But overall it really seemed like I was missing something, and I'm sort of confused about what it could be. Generally here's what I do in a match:

Open with a cheapshot (premed if possible), shiv crippling, maybe hemo, and expose armor if it's a rogue-or-under, armor-wise, otherwise rupture high-armor targets. Usually hemo again when I have the energy and SnD with a point or two. Then I stick on them, try to conserve energy for kicks if I need to, and otherwise try to keep either Rupture or EA up along with SnD. Is there anything in particular that I'm missing there?

Missing interrupts I probably just need more practice at. I don't think I've ever successfully backed off of a melee target to deadly throw them, but I'm generally okay with kicks and gouges and kidney shots so long as I'm not currently stunned. I have a hard time kicking 1.5s casts (Shaman, SPs) that I'm not actively expecting -- is that typical, or should I really be able to get those consistently?

The other problem is that if I in a match I feel like I'm doing enough damage, I hemo too much and end up energy-starving myself at inopportune times. And I feel like I have NO burst....even dumping a full rage bar of hemos into an EA'd target feels like 3k damage at most, unless it's a clothie, where it might be 5k damage if I crit a couple times over the course of 4s or so. It feels like my disc partner is bursting more than I am with MB/SW, which is kind of pathetic. Is there anything more that I can do than saving up energy, making sure EA is up and hemo spamming?

I guess I'll head into some random skirmishes and practice more, but it's pretty frustrating being "awful" and stuck around 1600. It also means that my gear upgrades are almost completely stalled...I could upgrade a couple s2 pieces to s3, but it feels like the difference there is going to be incredibly minor, so I mostly just need to get better with what I've got.

 

Hildegard

I think in the first season deep Sublety won't work out to well because the pressure will be missing. Resilience will be nearly topped of, but offensive stats are missing on the gear. I think combat maces may make a comeback, as a counter to Mutilate, which looks - in my opinion - right now as the standart Arena spec. I can see Mutilate/Preparation work out really well, too.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

Perilous

To melador:


Vs rogues save your energy for kidney shot. If you open on them its fine to expose then build combo points for your kidney shot then dump your energy bar into them. Shs the kidney shot. Make a macro for it if you have to since Shs isnt on the global cooldown you can shadowstep(puts you behind the target) and kidney in the same move. Dodge rates from behind are minimal and mostly due to lag, but I can usually reliably land a kidney on an evasioned rogue.

When a rogue pops evasion I usually vanish then cheap shot/kidney shot him. You cant dodge while stunned and while the energy loss for having a hemo dodged is only about 8 or so it does add up. If vanish isnt available or you need to save it for something else you can shiv(cant be dodged) then shs/kidney shot.

Remember that burst wins arena matches. Sustained dps is lovely and all(for pve) but doesnt really apply against most classes. Except warlocks of course.

I am almost never at lower then 60 or so energy unless I am dumping my energy bar or gouging. You know what classes are going to cast and with experience you will know when so dont global fuck yourself and make sure you save energy.

Good rogues dont spam their hemo button. Bad rogues do. Dont be a bad rogue.

And dont dance around like a monkey unless you are really good at it. Against most classes you are better off standing still and pounding into them with white hits then strafing nonstop. The exception is rogues, warriors and ret pallies where the idea is to be behind them.

Against casting classes I like to hit them from the front and quite often I am actually running in front of them while attacking them. That is in case you need to gouge and swap to something else. Gouging a running target takes a half second extra that i dont like to lose.

Remember dumping your energy bar every 10 seconds is far more effective then spamming trying to get a hemo off every 3.5. Just keep yourself below full energy and above 60 until you are ready for some burst.

Dont worry about backing off and deadly throw interrupting yet if you are having trouble with kicking. A solid kick, kidney, gouge, kick, gouge, kidney rotation is more then adequate for most classes to keep them really annoyed.

 

Greymist1

Minor suggestion: as you replace the s3/s2 with s4, gem with agi gems wherever you're currently using crit/AP, even if it costs you stam/res socket bonuses (maybe throw in 1 agi/hit to preserve 1 bonus). I'm not a big fan of crit/AP. With Sinister Calling, agi gems give you more crit and more AP than equivalent crit/AP gems, plus you get dodge.

You may even want to replace some of your pure AP gems with agi gems.

Specific to rogue v. rogue, Perilous covered most of what I originally wrote here, but I'd also add that you can chain ghostly strike and evasion to get long periods of high dodge. (GS->evasion->GS)

I don't always EA cloth either, for the same reason: long kidney shots are a valuable way to control your opponent and there aren't many opportunities to sneak in a 5pt EA. I only EA if I have the CP to spare and/or it's a good time to switch to being aggressive. Otherwise I try to play patient, apply pressure, and interfere with my opponent's play as much as I can.

You should be able to get a 1.5s cast, but Shaman in particular can be very tough to interrupt sometimes. UI mods can help; if you don't already have an enemy cast bar with very large, readable text smack in the middle of the screen, get one.

Heh. Welcome to life as a rogue in modern arena, my friend.

There's not much more you can do. Even when you wear 4 S4 + 4 T6, you have no real burst as a deep sub rogue. If you want burst, you have to spec mutilate, which is not so viable due to how easy it is to kite anything other than a 41pt sub rogue.

The best approximation of burst available is to wear Berserker's Call and use it right before trying to unload a full energy bar into a EA'd opponent while you have S&D up. It's sort of a slow-motion burst. Use it after you've forced defensive cooldowns and have whittled your opponent down to 30% or less. And call for your priest to help you.

As someone who's also playing disc priest/rogue, I have to warn you that there are many FOTM comps with significant advantages over disc priest/rogue right now. (Either that or I'm bad, it's not like I've been higher than about 1900 rating.) If you start seeing an endless stream of warrior/druids, just stop queueing. Most warrior teams are a big challenge: well played warriors are ridiculously good at peeling rogues off their healer while ripping the rogue apart at the same time, which puts too much healing burden on your priest, at the same time as you are unable to apply any pressure yourself. (It's usually not a viable option to DPS the warrior yourself.) Druids are even worse; you'll almost never win the healer mana war versus a druid team, and even if you do manage to get them OOM, druids are by far the best healers when nominally out of mana since their HOTs are so efficient. Many other common matchups will require a lot of practice and subtle technique to get good at (mage/rogue for example).

The best thing we've figured out with warrior/druid, by the way, is to let the warrior start on the priest. Disc priests can kill warriors 1v1 by playing defensively and wearing them down with SWP. The druid will be forced to destealth to heal the warrior eventually, at which point you open on the druid and use every trick in the book to try to stay with him. If the other team is any good the druid will immediately lead you to the warrior, who will peel you off the druid, and it'll basically be over, but sometimes you can tempt them into keeping it 2 mostly separate 1v1 fights. You can win those, especially by forcing a trinket and then blinding/fearing one to set up a kill of the other (usually you'll be CCing the druid and killing the warrior).

 

dp

Yo,

I need some thoughts on my current spec. I haven't been playing for a few months and I'm happy that I've read this post since it gave me something to think about.

I'm not sure about all those 20/0/41 speccs. I'm currently specced 3/17/41 and I think it works perfectly fine.

Imp. gouge is a blessing at some points. But the really good things in this build (if you ask me) is the riposte, imp. sprint and imp. kick. Riposte and pre-talent gives you a 10% chance to reposte a melee-attack, and this is so worth vs warriors and rogues (which im having most problems against). Imp. kick is awesome vs casters, but more importantly, healers. The kick silences for just two seconds, but that is, at some points what matters. Combining that with other stuns I'd say its super worth.

I also wanna thank the people that proved the importance of the panther-trinket I'm gonna go JC right away.

Here's a link to my char.

 

Zavior

You are missing relentless, ruthlessness and vile poisons. Relentless strikes and vile poisons are huge in my mind, having those wound poisons stacked really adds up to the healing burden. Relentless strikes returns tons of energy and is quite useful for that. Imp Kick is overrated in my opinion, succesfull kick gives the target school lock out anyway. It has its uses, yes, but not worth 2 talents.

 

dp

Aye, less combo points and less energy. But keeping a healer silenced 20% of the time is quite nasty. Druids for example (which is the most commonly used healer class) casts hots almost all the time. And combining with ks it's lethal, even for a druid.

 

Ozzmar

Silence isn't going to stop an Abolish Poison from removing your Crippling Poison though man. Vile Poisons is huge.