Halfdane

There has been almost zero discussion of rogue WotLK builds for PvP (although people have tons to say about PvE), and I am attempting to jump start such a discussion.

I think the Remorse Strike change is a huge boon any PvP builds that would have skipped taking the 11 points necessary in assassination. The two builds that benefit the most from this change are therefore HARP and Shadowstep/Combat.

Additionally, I'd like to draw the community's attention to a hidden gem of a talent in the combat tree: Endurance. Normally just filler, it's effect has been increased by a huge amount. Consider:

1) Old Sprint had a 5 min cooldown. Endurance takes this to 4 min. (-20%)
2) New Sprint has a 3 min cooldown. Glyph takes this to 2 min. Endurance takes this to 1 min. (-50%)

Could it be that (improved) Sprint is the new Shadowstep? Especially with Shadowstep not breaking roots.

Compare, for example, HARP now vs. HARP at level 70 with WotLK talents:

new HARP +
Relentless Strikes
2 or 1 minute improved sprint cooldown (depending on glyph availability)
Buffed Setup rather than Initiative
Cheaper and stronger Deflection, Cheaper and stronger Slice and Dice, better Repost, much stronger Blade Twisting

new HARP -
Instead of Mace stuns, either new Mace talent or old Sword talent


I see similar gains for Combat Fist Assassination, which gains Super Sprint, Dual Wield, Parry/Repost and Improved Kick. In return it loses Vile Poisons, Ruthlessness, and some filler talents from our standard Assasination/Shadowstep build.

What do you think will be the top PvP builds (at 70 and at 80)?

 

panny

Haha, 1 min cooldown sprint is insane. At 15 seconds, you could be Sprinting 25% of the time.

What I see from the talent trees is that they want Mutilate to be the anti-Warrior/Physical DPS class, and Sub to be anti-caster. New HARP looks interesting, especially with the combined ArPen of the new Mace Spec plus Dirty Deeds, but I don't know if that's going to be enough extra damage. They're improved as the zerg spec for double/triple DPS teams, but I don't think they look much better as another spec for a balanced team.

What the dominate PvP spec is going to depend on how the meta-game changes. I suspect everyone's DPS is going to go up, which is going to push healer teams out a bit.

 

Tower

New Shadowstep? No way, no howÂ*– the power of Shadowstep comes in it's mobility and its cooldown in relation to other classes mobility moves and their cooldowns. IE blink, intercept etc. Sprint merely removes the snare, another snare can be applied before you reach your target – which is really why Shadowstep works (for the most part).

And Shadowstep never broke roots, it's just now unable to be used while rooted. Unless the 51 point in Combat turns out to be good, under awesome circumstances, Mutilate and Shadow Dance just have too many tools more useful for PvP.

I've seen two very big buffs to PvP rogues come WotLK and that's Deadly Brew and the return of dagger based subtlety builds, which don't really help heavy combat builds at all. The buffs to combat will merely allow rogues to stay PvE sword spec and do better than they normally would. My prediction for 3.0 is Mutilate is going to be king, 51/3/7 is a great looking spec; new Harp, Shadowstep and Shadowdance builds are greatly improved, but lack the extra 10 talent points from attaining level 80 to really compare to how Assassination is a great "Talent Point Dump".

Shadowstep builds with certain combos/gear will still be strong, of course.

 

panny

One advantage of Sprint over Shadowstep is the ability to use it without LoS on your target. Very useful for chasing a Druid.

The change to Shadowstep being unusable while rooted really does hurt it. On live, a Mage can't afford to Frost Nova/Frostbite -> Blink to get room, because we can follow immediately and Kidney. That's no longer true.

My first thoughts are that Mutilate will rule, simply because of how powerful Infectious Poisons is against Druids, but we'll have to see whether the Mutilate Rogue will last more than 4 seconds against a Rogue/Mage combo.

 

Halfdane

I guess I'm somewhat unimpressed by the 51 point talents for PvP, and I feel that many of the lower tree talents are better. For example, 51/3/7 is not only missing a whole lot of Dps increasing talents, it also has severe problems chasing mages and druids, especially with a longer Cloak of Shadows cooldown. I might run with 41/5/15
, which in return for skipping the marginal Cut to the Chase and the (good)Hunger for Blood, picks up the requisite stealth talents, all the low level DpS talents, and the now vital Elusiveness. Once you hit 80, I think 51/5/15 has to compete with 41/5/25. Do you feel that Hunger for Blood will be better than Preparation?

I admit I don't really have a read on the new Shadowdance. I think it's not as good now as when it gave you a free vanish, but being able to perform a long silence/stun (if you start at full energy) might turn out to be key in some lineups. I think 0/20/41 builds will be much better relative to 20/0/41 builds than they are currently. I agree that Shadowstep is better than Super-Sprint, but the fact is that you can get both. I shadowstep while rooted all the time, currently, usually to catch a blinking mage or a healing druid for a fatal Kidney Shot.

Of course, if poison stays as ridiculous as it is now, there's no point in running anything that doesn't have Deadly Brew + Vile Poisons.

 

Halfdane

Has anyone in Beta gotten the Sap glyph yet? Does it increase the PvP sap duration? By how much?

I've been trying to figure out the best PvP glyphs for each spec, and I would welcome your thoughts on the matter. Here is a list of the current rogue glyphs.

If the Sap glyph actually extends sap by 10 seconds in PvP, that would be by far the best glyph for any PvP spec. So lets ignore that one at first and try to pick the top three non-Sap glyphs for each lvl 80 spec (and if your pet spec doesn't appear on the list, I'd be interested in your thoughts on it)

Mutilate-Prep
Cripple - (Key with Deadly Brew)
Eviscerate?
Shiv?
Ghostly Strike?

Mutilate-Hfb
Cripple
Shiv?
Ghostly Strike?

Combat - SS
Sprint
Sinister Strike
Eviscerate?
Shiv?

Shadowstep - Fleet Footed
Hemo?
Ghostly Strike
Shiv?

Shadowdance - Daggers
Backstab
Ambush
Ghostly Strike?

Shadowdance - Hemo
Hemo?
Sprint (if 0/20/51)
Ghostly Strike
Shiv?

HARP
Sprint
Hemo?
Ghostly Strike
Shiv?

What are your thoughts on the Hemo/Shiv/Ghostly Strike glyphs for PvP? If you are on Beta and they are available, do you have any thoughts?

 

Aat

Hey All!

I've recently started playing 2v2 with a disc priest, which is a lot of fun. But from my perspective we are a bit failing on damage. I've got pretty much all the honor-available pvp gear, mongoose enchants on both weapons, +10 agi gems. Basically i think I should be doing "ok" gearwise.

Which probably means I am doing something wrong in the "cast sequence". I'm an ShS rogue, mainly using Hemo and either the 5point kidney shot or eviscerate. Poisons I'm using are wound and crippling, which definitely seems like the best way to go.

So I was wondering if any of you maybe got some feedback/tips to improve my gameplay?

 

Hildegard

I can see a Shadowstep-Combat variant work in 3vs3 with Warrior and Druid, but without the 30% dispel resistance of wound poison or improved poison application things will be very annoying. But the overall DPS will increase a lot with Dual Wield and Precision.

Mutilate has many possibilities and for a 2vs2 Druid/Rogue variant the the ability to remove hamstring and mortal strike every single cooldown for no energy cost looks very strong. The weakness will indeed be mage/rogue as Mutilate lacks mobility and has the cloak only every 90 seconds.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

Mearis

Yeah, I am wondering exactly what the thought behind that talent is. A rogue fighting an arms warrior will have ~50% dodge/parry, no mortal strike on him ever, perma wound poison on the target, 120% healing on himself, 50% healing on the warrior.

<manly> then my sister calls and proposes the one thing that has never before occured in my entire life

 

Darlal

Honestly the mutilate rogue won't be THAT much weaker against rogue/mage (unless mage/healer becomes a big trend) since the fight never lasts long enough for 1min cloak to come back up anyway. A mutilate rogue is missing prep (2nd vanish/evasion), but the mind-numbing + crippling poison as well as instant + deadly poison is a huge buff against this combo (mind numbing + crippling mages and a poison dot on the rogue). Now that shadowstep can't be used while snared the lack of SS isn't such a big deal either (and rupture can be eaten with HFB).

Also, there is really no reason not to get elusiveness with a spec like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (suggested by Ming).

 

Tower

50% dodge parry? Not a PvP spec'd Hunger for Blood rogue, maybe with the best gear possible at level 80.

Honestly Hunger for Blood is likely a slight on the Arms tree to get warriors to spec in the fury tree for PvP, a 51 point talent countering one of the most long overpowered talents in the game - a 31 point talent. It also brings the trainability of mutilate rogues down a ton versus turtling healer+healer+warrior comps, which was much needed (even with WLD). "Sit on the rogue" when he's mut is just too often said by warrior teams. Between HFB and Master Poisoner, the lack of mobility for mutilate is made up by these talents, and the directional requirement moved.

 

Tower

Kinda hard to decide until we see what caliber the lesser inscriptions are. Some could be mini-versions of currently major glyphs while some major glyphs could be unique with no lessers (making them more valuable in major slots). Hemo will be a must for Hemo builds, Shiv likely for all builds.

I was told the Sap Glyph does not effect PvP, which coencides with the "no CC longer than 10s in PvP" mantra.

 

Mearis

The ShS rogue I PvP with has over 50% dodge unbuffed - toss parry in, and you are well over half.

Mutilate being able to remove all physical effects seems flat out retarded. Rogue shut down magical DPS incredibly well but get countered by other physical DPS classes - having a class that can shut down magical DPS and completely destroy other melees is probably a mistake.

<manly> then my sister calls and proposes the one thing that has never before occured in my entire life

 

Hildegard

Mings suggestion is a level 80 build. The question is how a level 70 build will work out. Against rogue/mage the Mutilate rogue will get 95% or more sapped, sheeped, blinded and once we remove one type of control the next one will come. The only chance I see is to have luck with blind missing while using Evasion. On the other hand humans got nerfed so the chances they will be able to catch him are a lot lower.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

drumbum

Uh, what? That rogue in your 2v2 has 35% dodge unbuffed, and to even get that high you basically have to have the best available PVE gear like he has. A full PVP geared rogue is closer to 31-32%. Plus a rogue without Sinister Calling would be around 3-4% lower than that.

Where are you getting 50% from? Inclusion of Ghostly Strike?

 

Mearis

I meant 50% avoidance, not 50% dodge.

If you include mongoose procs/ghostly strikes and or evasions, it is obviously much higher.

If you let him remove MS / hamstring at will, fights versus warriors would become absolutely retarded, expecially since mace stun is going the way of the dodo, so no more intercept -> mace stuns chain where he loses half his health in 5 seconds.

<manly> then my sister calls and proposes the one thing that has never before occured in my entire life

 

Hildegard

The point is that the Mutilate rogue cannot go after the healer because he lacks Shadowstep. Without Hunger for Blood the rogue would get crushed really fast. So the tactic has to change. Outrun the Mutilate rogue and get on the healer. While the Mutilate rogues healers tries to draw the warrior to the rogue and has to stay alive while a warrior with a full rage bar is chasing him. This changes the tactics a lot but it is surely not impossible. Now Druid/Warrior has two attractive targets vs. Druid/Rogue while they only have one. Tactics will be about kiting the rogue.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

drumbum

Well, it's 35% dodge + 5% parry = 40% unbuffed avoidance then, still not 50%. But comparing a BC 41pt Subtlety build to a WOTLK 51pt Assassination build removes many possible sources of avoidance:

1) PVE gear might not be viable in Wrath, which assuming the same relationship holds as does now, would reduce avoidance by several percentage points.
2) Sinister Calling is not included, which would reduce avoidance by 3-4% at level 70.
3) Ghostly Strike is unlikely to be included in a 51pt Assassination build.
4) We don't know if there will be an agility-based weapon enchant in Wrath equivalent to Mongoose.

In addition, I'm not sure what the agility-to-dodge conversion ratio is at level 80, but if someone has this information I'd like to know as well. I would not be surprised if Blizzard nerfed the ratio, as well.

I'm not making the case that rogue versus warrior is properly balanced or anything, but I just wanted to point out that total avoidance will probably be closer to 25-30% in early Wrath unless they make other changes.

 

Tower

He still has intercept, intervene, overpower, bleeds which can keep a rogue entirely trapped in GCD using HFB, and the best melee mitigation in the game – being able to wear plate and use a shield. Giving rogues a single ability to counter MS and hamstring doesn't change the fact that there's still many warrior talents and abilities designed to counter rogues.

 

Mearis

Given that rogues are the anti-caster class, what class is meant to be the anti-rogue class? Is there meant to be one?

<manly> then my sister calls and proposes the one thing that has never before occured in my entire life

 

Hildegard

This kind of thinking goes back to pre-TBC. Still some classes counter each other but they are not "supposed" to do so. It is not the goal of the design so thinking about which class counters another may be an interesting point of discussion but should be seen more about a flaw than about intention. 1vs1 isn't balanced as well as 2vs2 - so these issues will remain.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

Mearis

But rogues do counter some classes, no ifs and buts. We can argue that warriors shouldn't counter rogues, but then rogues shouldn't counter every single class who relies on non-instant spells.

<manly> then my sister calls and proposes the one thing that has never before occured in my entire life

 

sargsui

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...21350130000000

I am looking at this build for lvl80.
The new 31pt Assasination (Overkill) works so well with all of the Subt talents.
Take a look at some of the benefits and synergies:

-Deadly Brew/Vile/Improved Poisons
-All the important non-dagger Subt talents (aside from ShS)
-Fleetfooted + Camo: Almost no speed loss from stealth, and Camo now reduces Stealth cooldown to 4seconds (from 5). Camo can also simply be swapped for Cheat Death
-Dirty Deeds + Overkill: 20energy Garrote and 30energy CS
-Relentless + Improved EA: You will GAIN 10 energy on every 5pt EA
-Dirty Deeds + Overkill + Relentless + Premeditation + Blood Spatter + Serrated Blades + Master of Subt:
Huge bleed opener for only 5 energy.
Assume 120 Energy.
Premed Garrote (4cp, 100en)
--GCD (4cp, 110en)
Hemo (5cp, 85en)
--GCD (5cp, 95en)
Rupture (0cp, 105en)
--GCD (0cp, 115en)

Between Blood Spatter, Serrated Blades, and Master of Subt your Garrote/Rupture will be ticking quite high. If you happen to be rolling with a feral druid the results could be rather frightening.
This spec also allows for Vanish to function not only as a damage bonus but also as ghetto Renataki in that an EA 6sec after stealth will grant you 20energy, not to mention you'll be throwing out 25energy Hemos. With Premed on a 20sec cd and Setup you'll never be hurting for cps either.

Anyway, just thought it looked nice on paper. It allows for a completely different playstyle than was previously possible, something which seems to be quite common with WotLK so far.

 

• LodeRunner

You guys realize you're not going to want to be dodging Arms Warriors, right? Arms gets a two point talent that eliminates Overpower's cooldown.

 

Liar

But in return they can keep a Warrior gouged half the time without losing their CPs in Wrath (say, if they are killing someone else and a Warrior tries to peel them). A Warrior sitting in Battle Stance will have to sit out the whole duration so there is quite some opportunity cost attached to chain Overpowering although trading 2000 damage crits for 5.5 secs incapacitate every 10 seconds might be worth it - we'll have to see.

Is Gouge sharing diminishing returns with anything (or even itself)?

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.