Mutilate rogue won't be doing much gouging with Deadly brew. Unless you Envenom > Gouge to allow a little healing momentum + energy regen for yourself.
But rogues do counter some classes, no ifs and buts. We can argue that warriors shouldn't counter rogues, but then rogues shouldn't counter every single class who relies on non-instant spells.
Really not sure why classes are crying nerf on HFB when it essentially means less PvE geared Shadowstep rogues running around with Warglaives blowing most classes up (which I see your 2v2 partner is a glaive toting member of that club). You need PvP gear for Mutilate, Mutilate needs some help to counter its trainability –Â*and that's been given with HFB and the new Master Poisoner. Use your brain and CC the non prep toting non range closing dagger rogue –Â*maybe?
You spec HFB and you give up so much Sub the classes we "Countered" with SHadowstep and tons of PvE gear all of a sudden become dangerous again. Try training a druid or mage with mutilate right now or come 3.0. Think about the whole picture balance instead of a cumulative biased view. I don't PvE at all (actually haven't played s4 at all) so having a competitive PvP gear spec is a good thing for me, and the game. Cause right now a mut rogue doesn't have much chance at killing Pve/ShS rogues in 2v2 situations either.
Given that rogues are the anti-caster class, what class is meant to be the anti-rogue class? Is there meant to be one?
Hunters, pretty obviously. Master's Call + Disengage on a shorter cooldown than Shadowstep + Wing Clip + damage ignores the vast majority of our mitigation + spammable DOTs/Flare to keep us visible (which no longer break Freezing Trap). If the rogue has HFB and can remove WC/Conc, they don't have Improved Sprint or Shadowstep. If they've got Shadowstep, they don't have HFB and have to rely on Vanish to get out of snares. Deterrence ensures that we're not doing much damage even if we do get close. The disarm traps change was pennies in the bucket compared to what hunters picked up relative to today.
Also prot specs of all classes (Feral Druid/Prot Warrior/etc) are looking more and more viable in PvP and are about as hard a counter to a rogue as you can get. Nothing quite like watching your melee hits diminished down to double-digits.
+ HFB nerf already, only returns 15 energy instead of the 30 energy required for use. Bummer, hope it's tuned to 20, 15 energy is a lot for a mutilate rogue.
Mutilate rogue won't be doing much gouging with Deadly brew. Unless you Envenom > Gouge to allow a little healing momentum + energy regen for yourself.
There's no way an Assassination rogue will use Deadly Poison in PVP, despite the buffs to Envenom and poisons in general. Of course it prevents you from using Blind and Gouge on the target you're attacking, which is a big enough problem in itself; but the more significant issue is that anyone who heals your target suddenly has Deadly Poison on them thanks to Infectious Poisons, which would break many CC effects on him. An Assassination rogue will probably use Mind-numbing Poison mainhand and Wound Poison offhand, allowing for both hands to also apply Crippling Poison as well as get Wound Poison and Mind-numbing Poison on the healer.
Depends on who you're queue'ing against and who you're queue'ing with. DP is a ton of damage on a main target and if your target isn't accompanied by a poison clearer then it's fine. Deadly brew is also great for target swapping and putting yourself in a position to actually take that target down. Imagine playing rogue/priest vs dru/war. Focusing the warrior with IP/Wound and applying Deadly and Crippling. That's a ton of damage on the warrior while you're removing his MS, if the druid chooses to poison clear he's going to have DP, Wound and Crippling up. Making it easy for not only the priest to fear but for you to swap to him with wound+dp+crip up after you Envenom your applications on the warrior away + blind. Mind Numbing isn't going to do much to a druid or a priest healer anyway.
But in return they can keep a Warrior gouged half the time without losing their CPs in Wrath (say, if they are killing someone else and a Warrior tries to peel them). A Warrior sitting in Battle Stance will have to sit out the whole duration so there is quite some opportunity cost attached to chain Overpowering although trading 2000 damage crits for 5.5 secs incapacitate every 10 seconds might be worth it - we'll have to see.
Is Gouge sharing diminishing returns with anything (or even itself)?
Sap for sure, possibly polymorph.
Originally Posted by panny
Mutilate Rogues are also fairly kiteable.
Haha what? They have hamstring immunity, and crippling poison lasts ~4 seconds against them, 3 if they are a troll - also enjoy removing a mutilate's rogue crippling poison.
Hunters, pretty obviously. Master's Call + Disengage on a shorter cooldown than Shadowstep + Wing Clip + damage ignores the vast majority of our mitigation + spammable DOTs/Flare to keep us visible (which no longer break Freezing Trap). If the rogue has HFB and can remove WC/Conc, they don't have Improved Sprint or Shadowstep. If they've got Shadowstep, they don't have HFB and have to rely on Vanish to get out of snares. Deterrence ensures that we're not doing much damage even if we do get close. The disarm traps change was pennies in the bucket compared to what hunters picked up relative to today.
Also prot specs of all classes (Feral Druid/Prot Warrior/etc) are looking more and more viable in PvP and are about as hard a counter to a rogue as you can get. Nothing quite like watching your melee hits diminished down to double-digits.
They might become more viable, but they are not 'viable'. Hunters do counter melees pretty hard admittedly, but they don't counter just rogues, they counter every single melee class. I just don't think that given the damage that rogues unleash on casters they should also completely rape warriors.
About prot/feral. I agree that if you are dumb enough to attack one, they will own you pretty hard, but why would you ever do that? Just sit on his healer, do you think priest + prot warrior vs priest + rogue will be a pretty match up? Sure, a prot can sorta peel, but charge/intercept share DR, and so does concussive blow. After that you will have a priest free to cast + a rogue vs a priest with every single poison known to man + a prot warrior trying to peel a rogue.
[...] if your target isn't accompanied by a poison clearer then it's fine.
You made a good case for Deadly Poison, but I did want to address this specific sentence. I just wanted to make sure you realized that poisons are transferred not only from poison removal but also from simply healing the poisoned target. Thus it'd be effecting priests in addition to "poison clearers".
Originally Posted by Mearis
Haha what? They have hamstring immunity, and crippling poison lasts ~4 seconds against them, 3 if they are a troll - also enjoy removing a mutilate's rogue crippling poison.
The problem is that if your target does manage to gain some distance from you (e.g., you get CC'd), you can't close the distance very easily. Deadly Throw requires combo points (and you only get one shot to use it) and Sprint is on a long cooldown. You're right, Mutilate has some good tools to stay on a target, but it would still be very difficult to recover from your target escaping. Even with all the tools Assassination will have, it's hard to make up for the loss of a 30 second cooldown teleport.
I'm not at all complaining or suggesting that Mutilate needs more mobility; I'm just staying I still feel Shadowstep is the higher mobility build.
You made a good case for Deadly Poison, but I did want to address this specific sentence. I just wanted to make sure you realized that poisons are transferred not only from poison removal but also from simply healing the poisoned target. Thus it'd be effecting priests in addition to "poison clearers"..
Snap, thanks for the correction, I do not have a beta account and had clearly misunderstood this talent.
Saying rogues are immune to hamstring is a gross exaggeration. Hamstring is still applying, Imp Hamstring is still applying, unless you were using the old Hunger for Blood the exact moment Hamstring hit you are not immune. Now, it costs 15 energy, which has limitations based on time/energy and you will still be snared to which you need to react to remove it. I haven't been posting here in a while but it would seem you're still quite the drama queen Mearis.
I think Mutilate even with the OLD HFB will have major mobility problems.
Typical Mut builds won't even have Imp Sprint which means once you get away, they're potentially NEVER catching you again. I think it'll be a huge problem.
Regarding the scenario against Druid/Warrior outlined above: It sounds great, the old Envenom->Blind to target switch. But it'll be almost impossible to pull off reliably unless they change something. Envenom gives +25% poison application after its use, and a Mutilate rogue already has insane application rates (20% base for Instant + 25% talented + 25% envenom = 70% chance)... so you'll doubtless re-apply a stack with an auto-attack before you get to Blind. Even an Envenom+Blind macro would be exposed to 1-2 auto-attacks of risk during the GCD.
I think Ming hyped Mutilate too much. Mutilate will be strong if the enemy cannot get away easily what means it is no spec for 2vs2 chasing druids. Especially level 70 builds can't reach elusiveness what means that any magical snare will destroy us. I can see good mages leaving Mutilate rogues close to zero DPS uptime on them. Did anyone think of Mutilate/Holy Paladin ?
Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde
I think Ming hyped Mutilate too much. Mutilate will be strong if the enemy cannot get away easily what means it is no spec for 2vs2 chasing druids. Especially level 70 builds can't reach elusiveness what means that any magical snare will destroy us. I can see good mages leaving Mutilate rogues close to zero DPS uptime on them. Did anyone think of Mutilate/Holy Paladin ?
I'm playing ShS/Paladin right now, and generally, I don't have to use ShS as much as long as Freedom is on me. But the CD and the time that it lasts usually creates a big enough gap where I need to use ShS. Just not as frequently if I was partnered with another class.
I think with the energy change to Hunger for Blood they could re-introduce the removal of magical effects but this would most likely cause a nerf at another place. But as the energy refound is mainly something regarding PVP I think perhabs the removal of the energy refund combined with the removal of magical effects could be a better solution.
Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde
Come on, Hildegard. For potentially 45 energy you get a 15% damage increase for 30 seconds. For potentially 15 more energy at 29 seconds you can refresh it for another 30 seconds of non-trivial damage. Let's not get crazy. You already have Cloak of Shadows, Fleet Footed, and that Master Poisoner talent. Let's not go overboard.
Come on, Hildegard. For potentially 45 energy you get a 15% damage increase for 30 seconds. For potentially 15 more energy at 29 seconds you can refresh it for another 30 seconds of non-trivial damage. Let's not get crazy. You already have Cloak of Shadows, Fleet Footed, and that Master Poisoner talent. Let's not go overboard.
It's actually now 9%, not 15.
But that's not really the point- we should think about the function of the talent.
Clearly, for a tree to be PvP viable for a Melee class, it needs enough mobility.
Ferals sucked in Arena, period, for this reason. Now they have a 50% snare that's auto-applied and Feral Charge.
Warriors of course have Charge/Intercept/Intervene.
Rogues, as of now, have Shadowstep. A good move- relatively long cooldown, but it orientates you automatically (extremely useful for preventing KS dodges, even when already on a target) and can also be quite disorientating for opposing teams.
At 80, Shadowstep will have been heavily nerfed. The change so that it can't be used whilst Entrapped/Roots/Frozen/Imp Hamstrung/etc. is significant. This is actually a 'buff' to the Assassination tree, since it makes Step that much less essential-for-all-builds.
Clearly though, Blizzard wanted Step to be viable, which is why they continually buffed it in the last series of talent 'refresh' patches at 70.
Now we come to Assassination. Currently, except for certain specific setups, it's very weak in Arena because it's just so kiteable, especially with the more viable Assass setups including all the poison talents over Imp Sprint.
Enter Hunger For Blood. The removal of Magic+Bleeds was clearly, I think, a mobility thing (Magic for snares/roots, Bleeds to allow restealthing), with the bonus damage there to 'punish' you (even at 15% it's not much of a punishment (Dirty Tricks is far better)) for switching to the Rogue. After all, Assassination Rogues don't have Cheat Death, have less Dodge, no Ghostly or Prep.
The new HFB switches that around- you can now remove Hamstring but not being Frozen, Rooted, etc. On that note, is Entrapment physical or magical?
My point is, they should do whatever it takes for HFB to be a talent people want to take, and for it to make deep Assassination Rogues viable mobility-wise in a variety of lineups. If that means if reduces damage output by 20% whilst removing all roots/snares at once... that's what it should do. I don't think it should be talked about as a damage talent.
The huge problem is, even if it cleared all snares every use, it wouldn't be THAT great. Think back to Druids- they can ALREADY clear snares/roots on every GCD by powershifting, AND they have a 30% speed boost (over a Mut Rogue's 15%). And that wasn't enough even then. Yes we have a snaring poison, but without the ability to stack Wound to 5, it'll actually be far HARDER to keep the utility poisons on. Once they're removed, the target can potentially kite indefinitely, as many (faster-than-Rogue) Cat Druids found to their cost...
Apologies for the essay, I realise everyone knows all of the background stuff already
Come on, Hildegard. For potentially 45 energy you get a 15% damage increase for 30 seconds. For potentially 15 more energy at 29 seconds you can refresh it for another 30 seconds of non-trivial damage. Let's not get crazy. You already have Cloak of Shadows, Fleet Footed, and that Master Poisoner talent. Let's not go overboard.
It's 9% now, but I think Mutilate needs something against kiting. Maybe a change in the mechanic that the removal doesn't grant the additional damage. The tree seems amazing but the problem is mobility against strong kiting classes like mages or survival hunters.
Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde
It's 9% now, but I think Mutilate needs something against kiting. Maybe a change in the mechanic that the removal doesn't grant the additional damage. The tree seems amazing but the problem is mobility against strong kiting classes like mages or survival hunters.
If it was just those two classes, I think it'd be ok (though I personally prefer Rogues being setup as anti-cloth and as losing to Warriors. It just feels weird otherwise).
But any class that can get out of range, can potentially stay out of range forever against a melee class without a 'catch up' move.
Don't you guys remember back in the pre-good-Shadowstep days? All Rogues whined about was how much they needed Intercept...
That sounds familiar. Now you are all factoring in Fleet Footed's 30% snare reduction timer into your assessments, right? You couple that with Hunger for Blood's hamstring/wingclip removal which, at the same time, increases your damage and you think it isn't enough? You think it needs to remove magic effects too? I want to be sure of what you're saying.
It's not about whining. It is completly ok to give something else up for an ability like this. The point is that all the snare reduction doesn't really help to get close once a good kiter gets distance. This build does not even have improved sprint, unless you are Gnome. All the fancy poison talents and really well done advantages don't help if you can't ever catch the enemy. And some classes seem to be a hard counter to a Mutilate rogue. Survival Hunter and Frost Mage are two good examples.
So the question is whether this could be changed without making the class completly overpowered (remove anything and get damage for no energy cost) but rather make it a tactical decision that makes you lose something else. So if the talent would remove an effect for 30 energy but give no bonus damage would be a way to do that, which looks ok in the first place. It doesn't really affect PVE and would make the talent much more tactical than a no brainer spam ability like it was in the beginning.
Maybe better arena players than I am will tell me that there are many ways to deal with frost mages as a Mutilate Rogue - but I just fail to see them.
Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde
That sounds familiar. Now you are all factoring in Fleet Footed's 30% snare reduction timer into your assessments, right? You couple that with Hunger for Blood's hamstring/wingclip removal which, at the same time, increases your damage and you think it isn't enough? You think it needs to remove magic effects too? I want to be sure of what you're saying.
As Hildegard explained pretty well...
It's not a whine, genuinely. I love Mutilate and just want it to be viable, that's all. Currently it works in RMP lineups because they're a nuke lineup and they have a Mage rooting/chilling the target at the same time. That's great.
If Muti Rogues are to be viable in a range of 2s/3s lineups they need a way to avoid being kited. They don't have it. That's all I'm saying. I'm not even really talking about HFB specifically. I'm just noting that melee class PvP builds without a catch up move have a rather glaring weakness. Blizzard are trying hard to make more than one viable PvP spec for all classes (hell, look at their efforts with Fury, where Arms was perfectly serviceable).
All I'm saying is I hope they achieve this.
Since another 'charge' ability in Assass would be lame, and since they put in Overkill as the new 31pter, maybe Assass just needs a new way to re-stealth more easily. HFB obviously starts down this road, with its Bleed removal- but it's the dropping combat that's the problem. Maybe Assass needs 1minute Vanishes instead of Sprints? I don't know.
It'll be interesting to see how things turn out.
I hope you accept this isn't supposed to be a generic whine!
THIS bit is the generic whine :
The other thing I think Assass could do with (since you're asking ), is more tricks (perhaps in exchange for damage, sure. Damage is very very far from everything in PvP, as I'm sure you appreciate). Subt Rogues get Cheat Death, mini-Execute, ranged Sap/Blind, Stealth buffs, Teleport, etc. In comparison, Mutilate actually has a low number of procs and a low number of moves.
Considering Rogues got by far the least interesting trained abilities 70->80 (so much so that I assume there must be at least one more to come?), it'd be good for there to be a new 'fun' move in there somewhere.
The removal of magic effects was insane. I often though of it like the warlock vs mage problem. Where a lock can put up his dots and just spam Curse of Tongues on a Mage and completely shut him down trading CoT global for the mage's curse removal global. No reason we should be able to spam it to completely shut down a warlock in the same way. I'd be fine if it returned 20 energy instead of 15 though.
09/11/08, 2:19 AM
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), is more tricks (perhaps in exchange for damage, sure. Damage is very very far from everything in PvP, as I'm sure you appreciate). Subt Rogues get Cheat Death, mini-Execute, ranged Sap/Blind, Stealth buffs, Teleport, etc. In comparison, Mutilate actually has a low number of procs and a low number of moves.
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