[Rogue] PVP Stat Standards/advice - Page 85

sargsui · 09/12/08, 3:46 AM

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft ?
Better than a Prep variant, I'd think, with the Sprint glyph.
A 9% damage boost is not worth losing a short(ish) cooldown snare break.

Tower · 09/12/08, 4:28 AM

Originally Posted by sargsui

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft ?
Better than a Prep variant, I'd think, with the Sprint glyph.
A 9% damage boost is not worth losing a short(ish) cooldown snare break.

Even if your argument was just 9% overall damage increase versus a single snare break + increased speed every 1m I'd EASILY take the 9% damage over it. I mean, it's mutilate, you burst people down. 9% is freaking huge?

Being able to remove bleeds is invaluable versus warriors, ferals and other rogues. Being able to remove hamstring? Being able to remove Mortal Strike? AND 9% damage increase? Imp Sprint would have to be a 10s of Blessing of Freedom to make me consider consider skipping over Hunger for BLood.

Mearis · 09/12/08, 4:41 AM

Originally Posted by Hildegard

Maybe better arena players than I am will tell me that there are many ways to deal with frost mages as a Mutilate Rogue - but I just fail to see them.

The same thing every other class does when they meet somebody they cannot deal with - ask their partner for help.

What does a warrior do when fighting a frost mage? What does a frost mage do when fighting a warlock? What does any caster do when fighting a rogue?

Right now for example, shadowpriests in 2s REQUIRE a rogue to counter other rogues. You cannot do well in 2s unless you got another rogue to handle other rogues for you. You somehow seem to believe that not being completely autosufficient is a flaw in the spec - the mistake that Amera pointed out a few times is that ShS rogues being completely autosufficient was a horrible flaw in game design.

Hildegard · 09/12/08, 5:18 AM

Originally Posted by Mearis

The same thing every other class does when they meet somebody they cannot deal with - ask their partner for help.

What does a warrior do when fighting a frost mage? What does a frost mage do when fighting a warlock? What does any caster do when fighting a rogue?

Right now for example, shadowpriests in 2s REQUIRE a rogue to counter other rogues. You cannot do well in 2s unless you got another rogue to handle other rogues for you. You somehow seem to believe that not being completely autosufficient is a flaw in the spec - the mistake that Amera pointed out a few times is that ShS rogues being completely autosufficient was a horrible flaw in game design.

Very good point. And I have to admit that you are right about this.

Another point: I see many Mutilate level 70 specs with 3.0.2 taking Improved Kidney shot but leaving out Murder. Isn't 4% overall damage much better than the 9% improved kidney shot offers during the burst ?

Tower · 09/12/08, 5:21 AM

I think some players haven't noticed it's been buffed to 4% honestly.

Tiiki · 09/12/08, 5:54 AM

Very good point!

I hadn't even thought about it. I'm so used to clicking that entire row in the talent calculator. Murder is about a million times better, TP for TP for PvP!

Both Murder and Deadened Nerves are very good value, in fact.

Quick question: I assume Honor Among Thieves doesn't work on yourself? (Otherwise it's just a super powered cheap version of Seal Fate...?). The tooltips for that / Tricks Of The Trade should make this clear I think.

drumbum · 09/12/08, 6:15 AM

Edit: Nevermind. I was thinking of the wrong spell.

Tiiki · 09/12/08, 6:25 AM

Originally Posted by drumbum

According to the blue poster when the spell was first announced, it cannot be self-cast.

Indeed, I knew that about Tricks Of The Trade but can't find the info about Honor Among Thieves.

I guess I can always try speccing it tonight if no one knows !

drumbum · 09/12/08, 6:29 AM

Originally Posted by Tiiki

Indeed, I knew that about Tricks Of The Trade but can't find the info about Honor Among Thieves.

I guess I can always try speccing it tonight if no one knows !

I'm sorry, I was thinking about Tricks of the Trade. I should probably not post when I'm this tired.

Honor Among Thieves does work from your own crits I believe -- in general when Blizzard says that something effects the "raid" or "party", it includes yourself as well, although I can't confirm this for certain.

Hildegard · 09/12/08, 7:15 AM

I am still unsure whether Mutilate/Dreamstate Druid works well with 3.0.2. I prefer playing with a healer especially since Mutilate has some excellent talents working together with a healer.

I came out with either this build or a variant with taking less points in Dual Wield to get Stealth and Dirty Tricks. Generally I am unsure about the 10 points not needed to be spent in Assassination.

Assassination (51 points)

5/5 Malice
3/3 Ruthlessness
3/3 Puncturing Wounds
1/1 Vigor
3/5 Lethality
3/3 Vile Poisons
5/5 Improved Poisons
2/2 Fleet Footed
1/1 Cold Blood
2/2 Quick Recovery
5/5 Seal Fate
2/2 Murder
2/2 Deadly Brew
1/1 Overkill
3/3 Deadened Nerves
3/3 Find Weakness
2/2 Infectious Poisons
3/3 Master Poisoner
1/1 Mutilate
1/1 Hunger For Blood

Combat (5 points)

5/5 Dual Wield Specialization

Subtlety (5 points)

3/5 Relentless Strikes
2/2 Opportunity

panny · 09/12/08, 7:54 AM

Originally Posted by Mearis

Haha what? They have hamstring immunity, and crippling poison lasts ~4 seconds against them, 3 if they are a troll - also enjoy removing a mutilate's rogue crippling poison.

This is a problem that is shared by Enhancement Shaman. Removing a snare/root does not mean you automatically close into melee range. An intercept/intervene/blink away and you will have to walk that distance rather than just shadowstepping it. I've done some world PvP in beta on a Mutilate Rogue and starting at range against most classes means you need to use Sprint to get into range.

Mutilate Rogues are good, but they have definite weaknesses against casters.

Tiiki · 09/12/08, 9:30 AM

Originally Posted by Hildegard

Very good point. And I have to admit that you are right about this.

Another point: I see many Mutilate level 70 specs with 3.0.2 taking Improved Kidney shot but leaving out Murder. Isn't 4% overall damage much better than the 9% improved kidney shot offers during the burst ?

Thinking about it more, you forget (and I forgot): Imp KS is 9% from ALL sources. So in a 2s team with a healer, it's worse.

In a 3 or 4dps 5s team... it makes a lot more sense. Especially as kills very very often come through healer control + burst in those games.

Hildegard · 09/13/08, 7:11 AM

I just looked over the other melee classes in the arena to see which snare breaker or teleports or other talents they have with with 3.0.2 that increase their mobilty.

Arms Warrior: Improved Intercept: 15 second cooldown with 4 pieces of the PVP Set
Fury Warrior: 25 Second Intercept, 45 second Heroic Leap
Retribution Paladin: 115% Run Speed, 10-14 second Hand of Freedom (20sec cooldown), Divine Shield
Enhancement Shamans: Improved Ghost Wolf, Earthen Power" (causes your Earthbind Totem totem to have a 50/100% dispel all snare effects when it pulses)
Feral Druid: Feral Charge (15 second cooldown), Shape shifting to remove snares, travel form

Mutilate rogues have a 90 second cloak (on level 70), 3 minute sprint (2 with the glyph), 30% reduced movement impairing effect duration, 115% run speed and the ability to remove physical effects for 15 energy and increase our damage by 3%.

Perhabs another Glyph could help here. Assasination glyphes didn't look really well up until now. "Gives your Hunger for Blood ability a 100% chance to remove any snare effect but removes the damage increase."

I just read that Enhancement Shamans Earthbind Totem will remove any snare effect when pulsing and

panny · 09/13/08, 9:47 AM

Ghost Wolf removing snares is being removed.

Liar · 09/13/08, 10:58 AM

Intercept is not a snare breaker (unless you are Protection), so it shouldn't be in the list, should it?

Just like there is a difference between HFB and ShS.

Hildegard · 09/13/08, 3:17 PM

Originally Posted by Liar

Intercept is not a snare breaker (unless you are Protection), so it shouldn't be in the list, should it?

Just like there is a difference between HFB and ShS.

Technically not but you can cross a frost trap with that. It's a teleport just like Heroic Leap, Feral Charge or Shadow Step.

Tiiki · 09/14/08, 1:20 AM

Originally Posted by Liar

Intercept is not a snare breaker (unless you are Protection), so it shouldn't be in the list, should it?

Just like there is a difference between HFB and ShS.

Intercept Stun -> Hamstring was as good as or better than ShS -> KS when snared. As Hilde says - they're the same thing really.

Liar · 09/14/08, 6:40 AM

Originally Posted by Tiiki

Intercept Stun -> Hamstring was as good as or better than ShS -> KS when snared. As Hilde says - they're the same thing really.

I would agree if it wasn't for the fact that the Warrior could still be slowed. Crippling Poison and Wing Clip are all stronger snares than Hamstring so after Intercept Stun wears off (provided you didn't desynch from the server and ended up in the middle of nowhere or if your target was not on stun DR) you'd still be running after your target. A real snare breaker actually removes movement impairing effects from you.

Hildegard · 09/14/08, 7:03 AM

A warrior also has issues but he has at least some basically guaranteed uptime on the target. I don't want to continue with complaining about the mobility issues as this tends to get easily into whining. Let's focus on strategies and viable setups.

Three thesis from me, please tell me if you agree or have another opinion.

First:
Mutilate looks like it won't work in a pure DPS team and in my opinion needs healing. At level 80 things may look different and some 41+X-X-21+X stuff could work very well in a burst setup.

Second:
Mutilate needs a partner that can either immobilize/snare the target or free the rogue of such effects.

Third:
The other classes should be able to play defensive and sustain mana for long matches.

moowalk · 09/14/08, 8:26 AM

Sounds reasonable. I'd suspect that a pally covers those requirements quite well in a 2v2 setup.

Out of interest, what is paladin/rogue's biggest weaknesses currently and why? Will they be solved with WotLK?

I've just started a RaF rogue pally combo with my girlfriend, and hope to mess around a bit in arenas at lvl 80.

panny · 09/14/08, 10:37 AM

Disc Priest/Mutilate Rogue works already. Mobility is an issue of course, but not a complete dealbeaker.

Halfdane · 09/14/08, 2:31 PM

There's been some discussion on the PvE thread of how good Sealed Fate is for Mutilate builds. It turns out it's pretty good but not fantastic.

This got me thinking... how good is Sealed Fate for Mutilate PvP? I think it's value is severely reduced. You are less worried about your 3/5/5 cycle or making sure your Rupture is a full 5 pointer. I can definately see the value of Ruthlessness, since you always want to have at least one point on a target (for Deadly Throw after non-DT finisher, or even for Kidney Shot at certain desperate times). The difference between 2 and 3 combo points (or 4 and 5) seems to be less important, especially for 5 talent points.

Not taking Sealed Fate allows you to get a lot more of the lower talents (say, Improved KS + 2/3 Deadened Nerves) without making sacrifices in other trees.

For example, Super-Sprint Mutilate or Preparation Mutilate ("Preparation M"?)

What do you think?

Hildegard · 09/14/08, 7:42 PM

I tested this today and used Cut to the Chase instead. Infectious Poison doesn't work on the PTR at the moment.

The DPS is pretty sick at the moment, I suspect the poison bug still exists. I only did some matches with a Retribution paladin there and it was quite chaotic but matches seemed to be way faster than what I was used to. It felt quite smooth to play with 3/5 Relentless Strikes, Dual Wield, Opportunity and no stealth talents, no Seal Fate, but Cut to the Chase. I had during arena matches often 1000 or more DPS and 1400 to 1600 on the target dummies with PVP gear, the ring for badges, the Battlemaster AP Trinket and the Sunwell Engineering goggles. I don't know what level these dummies have.

From a first glimpse - with the increased healing capabilities Retribution paladin / Mutilate rogue looked quite decent.

If anyone wants to do some real testing in the arena with me I would like that a lot. My character name is Hildee on the European PVE server.

Tiiki · 09/14/08, 9:13 PM

Originally Posted by Halfdane

There's been some discussion on the PvE thread of how good Sealed Fate is for Mutilate builds. It turns out it's pretty good but not fantastic.

Is the current Focused Attacks used for PvE Mutilate builds or is it trash all round?

Grunge · 09/14/08, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by Tiiki

Is the current Focused Attacks used for PvE Mutilate builds or is it trash all round?

Quite good in PvE apparently (note: This post )

However, there's not enough points at the moment to get it in a PvP spec, and I'm pretty sure it's rather redundant as well.
I'm currently thinking of trying This out for pvp, but I'm not 100% how useful CttC would be. If not taken, it would free up 5 points.