[Rogue] PVP Stat Standards/advice - Page 86

Hildegard · 09/15/08, 4:47 AM

Originally Posted by Grunge

Quite good in PvE apparently (note: This post )

However, there's not enough points at the moment to get it in a PvP spec, and I'm pretty sure it's rather redundant as well.
I'm currently thinking of trying This out for pvp, but I'm not 100% how useful CttC would be. If not taken, it would free up 5 points.

I see everyone take 5/5 Lethality. Is Lethality again considered strong enough for PVP. I would have taken 3/5 Lethality and 2/2 Murder instead.

Deadened nerves is also quite strong. Even without healer it's quite a nice increase in survivability (600-800 HP more). But I am also unsure if I have the points to take it.

I tried this spec yesterday. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Tiiki · 09/15/08, 7:03 AM

And have you confirmed that Opportunity actually does anything for Mutilate?

I'm still waiting on confirmation about that one...

Hildegard · 09/15/08, 7:17 AM

*deleted*

Mearis · 09/15/08, 7:50 AM

Originally Posted by Hildegard

Not yet. But will do that today.

Edit: I still look for working addons. Recount shows crits as glancing blows for example.

Are you able to get anything done on the EU-beta server? The past month or so that server has been completely shit, 5+ second lag since the last waves of beta invites have gone out.

Hildegard · 09/15/08, 7:52 AM

*deleted*

Angrenous · 09/15/08, 10:00 AM

Hello,

I currently run 20/0/41 and am trying to understand a new sub hemo spec for 3.0x. What I can't figure out is how much damage dual wield really gives you. Is it less than or more than Lethality?

Vigor is amazing. Do you go with 11/5/44
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

20/0/41
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

or

15/5/41
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I just dont believe Shadowdance is nearly worth ditching all the assassination talents.

Tiiki · 09/15/08, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Angrenous

Hello,

I currently run 20/0/41 and am trying to understand a new sub hemo spec for 3.0x. What I can't figure out is how much damage dual wield really gives you. Is it less than or more than Lethality?

Vigor is amazing. Do you go with 11/5/44
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

20/0/41
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

or

15/5/41
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I just dont believe Shadowdance is nearly worth ditching all the assassination talents.

If you're not using Daggers Shadowdance is extremely poor. That's why Blizz added the Hemo energy reduction to the talent preceeding it. Otherwise Hemo Rogues would never ever go down there. The energy reduction is a pretty big deal though...

mofidik · 09/15/08, 2:04 PM

Originally Posted by Hildegard

I run a test with 100 Mutilate crits on the target dummie. One of them had an armor penetration up for one Mutilate. I didn't use any skill but Mutilate. Both with the same gear, same talents, except some fillers that didn't affect Mutilate damage. I didn't use Hunger for Blood. I don't now if Recount shows correct numbers, but from a first impression: Yes Deadliness works with Mutilate.

Row 1: With lethality
101 Crits, min. 1828, max. 2707, average 2244

Row 2: Without lethality
100 Crits, min. 1307, max. 2170. average 1830

Recount cannot distinquish between mainhand and offhand. This is in no way an "evidence" but it gives a fairly clear impression. Although the difference seems a lot bigger than I expected.

You quoted a guy who asked if opportunity still affects mutilate, then say you confirm Deadliness works with mutilate, and then show results varying you putting points into lethality or not? I'm a tad confused!

To get back into the setups thing, what are people thinking about DSdruid/mut? If you can line up cyc/starfire+mut/cyc/starfire+mut/KS/starfire+mut, I don't think anyone will survive. Will probably do some testing with my current partner when I get the personal for S3 daggers and when transfers actually work. In advance all I can say this is the most exited about being a rogue I've been since mutilate got announced in the first place.

Hildegard · 09/15/08, 2:11 PM

Originally Posted by mofidik

You quoted a guy who asked if opportunity still affects mutilate, then say you confirm Deadliness works with mutilate, and then show results varying you putting points into lethality or not? I'm a tad confused!

To get back into the setups thing, what are people thinking about DSdruid/mut? If you can line up cyc/starfire+mut/cyc/starfire+mut/KS/starfire+mut, I don't think anyone will survive. Will probably do some testing with my current partner when I get the personal for S3 daggers and when transfers actually work. In advance all I can say this is the most exited about being a rogue I've been since mutilate got announced in the first place.

Ok I am stupid. I have a fewer today (if anyone cares...) and will go to bed now. Editing the post above.

Halfdane · 09/15/08, 3:35 PM

Originally Posted by Angrenous

Hello,

I currently run 20/0/41 and am trying to understand a new sub hemo spec for 3.0x. What I can't figure out is how much damage dual wield really gives you. Is it less than or more than Lethality?

Vigor is amazing. Do you go with 11/5/44
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

20/0/41
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

or

15/5/41
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I just dont believe Shadowdance is nearly worth ditching all the assassination talents.

You can download the new (WotLK) Rogue Spreadsheet and investigate stuff like this. I did just such a test and found that Dual Wield did significantly more damage than Lethality (in Shadowstep/Hemo). Of course, this isn't precise, since in PvP we get a much higher contribution from yellow damage (because of energy regen while not on target), but the difference was pretty huge.

I feel that the low level combat talents are much stronger than the low level assassination talents. The best low level assassination talents are Vile Poisons and Improved Poisons, which are ridiculous only because of poison's broken damage.

I'm not that impressed with vigor. How much better is 120 energy than 110?

I think 0/17/44 is better than 11/5/44 +1 (ignoring the broken poison issues for now). 1 minute Improved Sprint with the glyph (which I've been calling "Super Sprint"). Better DPS talents and Repost for Rogue/Warriors.

One thing I'm unclear on: Does Honor Among Thieves give you a combo point for finishing moves? Does that make Ruthlessness less valuable? I guess your teammates might crit immediately before you finish, preventing you from getting that crucial first combo point.

mofidik · 09/15/08, 3:52 PM

Originally Posted by Hildegard

Ok I am stupid. I have a fewer today (if anyone cares...) and will go to bed now. Editing the post above.

Sorry if I was a butt ache, the value of lethality is surely still up in the air for mutilate anyway. Get well

Question to you beta/PTR rogues though. Would it be possible to test if the secondary poison proc (cripling) still occurs when a superior MS (warrior,hunter) is already present on the target? I think I read deadly brew is currently bugged, but I'm sure people that are on can get some answers rolling before I get my chars copied anyway.

Ticia · 09/15/08, 7:36 PM

Originally Posted by mofidik

Question to you beta/PTR rogues though. Would it be possible to test if the secondary poison proc (cripling) still occurs when a superior MS (warrior,hunter) is already present on the target? I think I read deadly brew is currently bugged, but I'm sure people that are on can get some answers rolling before I get my chars copied anyway.

There are no "superior" MS effects anymore. Wound Poison doesn't stack anymore, it is simply one application that reduces healing by 50%. Compared to Mortal Strike it is actually better in a vacuum, since Wound Poison lasts for 15 seconds while MS only lasts for 10.

Tiiki · 09/16/08, 5:57 AM

...though one is much much easier to remove than the other.

They should clearly just co-exist- the same with all snare types, since poison snares are far easier to remove than physical ones.

I can't remember, but does Crip currently knock off DT/Hamstring? If so, that's terrible!

Chaggi · 09/16/08, 6:16 AM

So for 3.0, are people thinking of going Mutilate or staying ShS? I'm having quite a trouble deciding.

On one hand, ShS is simply pretty easy. We've all played it and dominated with it before. But having it not usable while rooted is a pretty big hit on us. We could go down Combat and pick up Sprint, which should take some of that off, but still isn't perfect.

Or, go Mutilate, deep Assassination and hope everything works out.

I'm actually not sure anymore. I guess it probably depends on your partners too.

I can't remember, but does Crip currently knock off DT/Hamstring? If so, that's terrible!

I seem to remember it knocking off things but I'm not 100%!

Hildegard · 09/16/08, 6:20 AM

Just about poisons. How do you handle the changes after starting the match ?

I have one mainhand and two offhands, but even with the new Deadly Brew I want to have access to more poisons. Anesthetic could come in handy against other rogues or warriors. And the combinations are endless. Instant/wound vs. Melee/healer, MindNumbing/Wound vs. Caster/Healer, Instant/Mindnumbing vs. Dual Caster...

I usually run on live with 20/0/41 with Wound Poison on the maihand, Crippling on the offhand and mind numbing on the other offhand. But against rogue/mage I put on mind-numbing on the mainhand after starting the match.

Perhabs I should only buy mainhands...

drumbum · 09/16/08, 4:09 PM

Originally Posted by Tiiki

...though one is much much easier to remove than the other.

They should clearly just co-exist- the same with all snare types, since poison snares are far easier to remove than physical ones.

I can't remember, but does Crip currently knock off DT/Hamstring? If so, that's terrible!

This has been an issue I've had with this game for a long time now. Blizzard doesn't seem to like the idea of having multiple debuffs if one overrides the other. I guess this is due to trying to keep debuffs under control, but I still think it should be changed. A few examples:

1) If Expose Armor is active (even if it's less than what a 5-stack of Sunder Armor would provide), Sunder Armor cannot be applied. This also prevents a warrior from gaining the threat from applying Sunder Armor. With talented Expose Armor being superior to Sunder Armor, this means you can either gain the added utility from the rogue for more raid DPS, or you can gain the added utility of the warrior to increase his threat. I don't really see why both of these can't coexist.

2) Crippling Poison will prevent any other snare (if it's less than 70% speed reduction) from applying, even if the poison only has 0.1 second left before expiring. This also means it's possible for a warrior to have Hamstring on an opponent, then a rogue to overwrite it with Crippling Poison, then have the Poison immediately removed by a shaman, druid, or paladin. It's obvious that the snares should not stack with one another, but I see no reason why they can't both coexist on the target, such that only the stronger one is actually having an effect.

3) Mortal Strike overrides Wound Poison, even if the Wound Poison was at a 5-stack, but it cannot happen the other way (since you can't apply 5 stacks at the same time to match the Mortal Strike). This will change with Wound Poison no longer stacking to 5, but there are still other problems. One example is that if an Orc player activates Blood Fury when they have a 5-stack of Wound Poison on them, the Wound Poison is removed. Once Blood Fury fades, you're left trying to recover 5 stacks of a debuff.

4) Another similar example is that if a rogue is PVPing with a warrior, and the warrior has Mortal Strike active on a target that is immune to snares (i.e., Blessing of Freedom, Bestial Wrath, whatever), you can't apply Crippling or Wound Poison, so a Mutilate rogue will no longer get the 50% bonus damage with Mutilate assuming he's using these two poisons (which is pretty common).

Tiiki · 09/16/08, 8:38 PM

Genuinely: Have you tried writing that post on the official feedback forums? I do remember this chat before, but now is the time to raise it to Blizzard, what with them accepting Beta / PTR feedback.

Are you on the Beta? I am, I could cross post that to the Rogue official feedback thread if you'd like / are happy for me to do so?

drumbum · 09/16/08, 11:24 PM

Feel free to do what you want with my post. I'm not on the beta.

I don't think I'm the first person to bring up the issue though, and honestly I do see one very key reason why they might not want to allow buffs to coexist -- the debuff limit. However I don't think it really adds that many more debuffs that would exist anyway, and for a spec like Mutilate where you are required to have poison on your target, it's important that something like wound poison not be allowed to be overwritten.

Tiiki · 09/18/08, 4:09 AM

I cross posted it on the EU Beta Rogue forum.

So new build today: Improved Poisons nerfed into the ground and Infectious poisons removed. Both big big hits for Mutilate.

There's now no way to increase the application chance of any typical PvP poison...

drumbum · 09/18/08, 4:22 AM

The change to Improved Poisons was actually a buff for PVP, as the increased application rate for the PVP poisons is now baseline:

* Anesthetic Poison II - Chance to apply increased to 50% from 20%.
* Wound Poison VII - Chance to apply increased to 50% from 30%. AP coef reduced to .04 from .06.
* Mind-numbing Poison - Chance to apply increased to 50% from 20%.
* Crippling Poison - Chance to apply increased to 50% from 30%.

Now the only poisons with less than 50% proc chance are Instant and Deadly. It sounds to me like Mutilate rogues just got 5 talent points opened up to spend elsewhere.

Hildegard · 09/18/08, 5:07 AM

Well with Deadly Brew Instant Poison is actually a PVP poison. Infectious poison was too strong.

Did the Poison-AttackPower scaling remain the same ?

drumbum · 09/18/08, 5:34 AM

To quote Vulajin from another thread:

Originally Posted by Vulajin

Deadly Poison 9 (8926): 536 damage + 12% AP
Deadly Poison 9 (8962): 296 damage + 8% AP

Instant Poison 9 (8926): 445-595 damage + 15% AP
Instant Poison 9 (8962): 300-400 damage + 10% AP

Roughly a 33% reduction in damage on both poisons.

Tiiki · 09/18/08, 5:55 AM

Originally Posted by drumbum

The change to Improved Poisons was actually a buff for PVP, as the increased application rate for the PVP poisons is now baseline:

Now the only poisons with less than 50% proc chance are Instant and Deadly. It sounds to me like Mutilate rogues just got 5 talent points opened up to spend elsewhere.

Aha, ok.

Only the talent trees (not the notes/build) were available when I posted. Cheers

EDIT: Seen the rest of the changes now.

So Envenom now only increases the Instant/Deadly apply chance too. Which is a shame.
Focused attacks has been made half decent though - I wonder if that's a more useful spend in PvP now than CTTC?
Enveloping Shadows has gone from half decent (chance to avoid fear/nova/shouts) to useless (some AoE damage mitigation)

And... It's a shame Infectious Poisons couldn't have been worked into something more interesting / similar.

Hildegard · 09/18/08, 6:14 AM

This also means that PVP Mutilate most likely won't take Cut to the Chase ?

Seems like this build is the way to go:

Assassination (51 points)

5/5 Malice
3/3 Ruthlessness
3/3 Puncturing Wounds
1/1 Vigor
5/5 Lethality
3/3 Vile Poisons
2/2 Fleet Footed
1/1 Cold Blood
3/3 Improved Kidney Shot
2/2 Quick Recovery
5/5 Seal Fate
2/2 Murder
2/2 Deadly Brew
1/1 Overkill
2/3 Deadened Nerves
3/3 Focused Attacks
3/3 Find Weakness
3/3 Master Poisoner
1/1 Mutilate
1/1 Hunger For Blood

Tiiki · 09/18/08, 6:20 AM

Yes, absolutely something like that. I would also possibly consider things like Improved Expose or Improved Eviscerate depending on how it plays.

But yeah, it makes MOST of a Mutilate build (51pt builds at least) a no brainer...

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000