How is this overkill useless from pvp point of view? I think its great, its basically like Dirty Deeds was back in the days. Every decent pvp rogue had that talent.

It basically buys you time. Depending what abilities are used, you can save up around 40-60 energy during first 6 seconds, those will come in handy when unloading on imp.KS'ed target. I would say that Cold Blood is much more useless talent.

It saves you energy during the first 6 seconds from Stealth.

In an Arena match, you typically don't get to re-stealth outside of your Vanishes. And you can't always use them (FF, etc.). 6 seconds once or twice in a 10 minute match isn't that great.

Plus there aren't many 'from stealth' synergies in Assassination (well none, really).

I am still figuring out my 3.0 build. 5/5/51 comes to mind with the poison improvements this could work out even without the dispel protection.

One question came to my mind:
Garotte doesn't suffer from Dimishing returns. So it should be possible to silence someone 18 seconds straight without the use of preparation by using Garotte every 3 seconds and there still should be some energy left to use hemo or another finisher. This could be very brutal against caster classes, especially in double-dps combos.

Overkill is AMAZING

...for grinding.

The PVP glove bonus got changed to minus ten energy on kick.

As the build currently stays, if I go Mutilate I'll go with something like this (because of the nerf to the 51 pt Talent): Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft



If I go Shadowstep (non-daggers): Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Very hard to decide talents for Sublety Build. While Filthy tricks is nice (5 min Prep) I don't know how many times it would be used in Arena, matches with a Rogue tend not to last that Long (for good or Bad and I think that will even be more true in the LK). I Really think Blizzard should put relentless to 3 points, 5 points is to expensive because Sublety is overloaded with good points at the first tier.

For Healer/Rogue fights it would certainly be helpful. It's borderline in Double DPS setups though, as you'd have to pop Prep almost immediately in order to make use of it. However..don't forget there's a Glyph which reduces Prep's CD by 2 minutes. So Filthy Tricks + Prep Glyph = 3 min Prep. This combined with the reduced CD on Evasion/Sprint means you've got 2 Evasion/Sprints every 3 minutes, not to mention Vanishes. Seems pretty OP, they may make FT and the Glyph unstackable, so we'll see.

Egads, stop watching a thread for a few days and the endless stream of tears starts. Hey, all of you: QUIT FUCKING WHINING OR I WILL HAVE ALL YOUR HEADS ON A PIKE.

Pretty valid point there. I Didn't see the Glyph, it it Stats it's a bit OP as you say and a must have talent then.

Regarding the Glove Deadly Throw effect I think it's stupid it's now in combat, at least should be lower in the tree so other builds could take it. Not even a combat build at that stage can take it.

Just to make a comparision between current builds and the 3.0.2 ones. Of course there are many variants but I tried to take comparable specs to show the gains and loses more easily. Please let me know if you find any mistakes. Perhabs a comparision to 0-17-44 would make more sense, so if someone is willing to do the work..

3.0.2 18-0-41 plus X compared to 2.4 20-0-41
+ 30% more damage on Rupture and Garotte or 14% more damage on Eviscerate
+ 10 Energy cost less on Expose Armor or 12% more critical damage on all combo moves
+ 10 Maximum Energy
+ 2 talent points more to spent in any of the three trees
+ 30% increased proc chance of mind numbing poison
+ 20% increased proc chance of crippling poison
+ 20% increased proc chance of wound poison
+ 50% healing reduction with a single poison application
+ cooldown of Sprint and Evasion reduced by 120 seconds
+ cooldown of Vanish reduced by 90 seconds
+ New abilty: Dismantle

- 2% overall damage
- 10% less poison dispel resistance
- Needs 2 talent points more to get the same benefits plus Ruthlessness in the Sublety tree.
- Healing reduction has only one stack and is so easier to remove
- Blind cooldown increased by 30 seconds

Uncertain:
Do the 3 points in Master of Deception have the same effect as the 5 points before the change ?

Taken from thottbot.com

5/5 MoD (Live)
Apply Aura: Stealth Level Modifier
Value: 15

3/3 MoD (Beta)
Apply Aura: Stealth Level Modifier
Value: 15

So I assume it's the same effect.

Getting SD with a Hemo build is definitely viable it seems, but I'd just use a weapon swap to dagger for when you pop SD.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

This build you get great white damage through DWS, 30 Energy Hemo's, and the ability to use a weapon swap for SD to maximize the burst potential, all while not having to worry about the positional requirement of Backstab. A couple points could be taken out of Malice to expand on some other Subtlety talents. I had this in mind for double dps setups.

I've been using the Roguecraft spreadsheet to compare PvP specs. Yes, I know this is not completely accurate. But I think we can gain some useful information with it.

Experimental Controls:
I took the default character (with Sunwell gear) and replaced their main/offhand weapons with appropriate Merciless Gladiator weapons. I used an Adamantite Sharpening Stone rather than a poison since most non-Mutilate builds won't be running instant or deadly poisons (and "none" or "wound" isn't an option). Finally, I turned off all raid buffs. I set the cycle to xS/yR, and the boss level to 70. I'll note that I didn't model resilience, which may deflate certain numbers.

My first experiment was Swords vs. Maces. I used a typical 5/51/5 combat build. I was interested whether we should be using Swords or Maces in PvP (for example in a HARP build). At 4K of armor (that of a rogue), Swords won 1752 to 1667 in total DPS. With 13K of armor (that of a warrior), Swords won 1347 to 1286. Since there is no longer any PvP benefit to using Maces, you should always use Swords over Maces in PvP if you can.

In the second experiment, I compared 8/2/51 Backstab-daggers with 5/5/51 Hemo-fists. The overall damage was surprisingly similar, with Backstab doing 1188 total damage to Hemo doing 1193 total damage. Looking carefully at the numbers, there were interesting differences. Backstab did 626 white damage, Hemo did 737 white damage. Backstab did 448 damage from backstabs, Hemo did 229 damage from hemos. I'll note that Honor Among Thieves doesn't seem to be modeled (which would change the rupture damage). Backstab did 54.3 Damage per Energy, Hemorrhage did 35.9 Damage per Energy. This was against a target with 4K armor.

Basically, the Hemorrhage build did much more white damage because of Duel Wield. However, once we reach 80 both builds will have access to Duel Wield.

How can we think about these numbers for PvP? In PvP, we do a higher proportion of yellow damage to white damage since the spreadsheet assumes that you are always on target, whereas in a PvP match you are sometimes off target, gaining energy that is not modeled. So doing more yellow damage is more important in PvP (how much so is a matter of debate). This would heavily favor Backstab.

On the other hand, in PvP players have resilience, which is not modeled by the spreadsheet. This effects Backstab more than Hemorrhage since Backstab has a 30% greater crit rate.

I suspect that by level 80 a 8/12/51 Backstab build will do significantly more damage than a 0/20/51 Hemo-fists build in PvP (against targets with resilience). What is more difficult to predict is how much having improved sprint in the Hemo build compares to the higher damage of backstab (ignoring, for now, the positional issue).

Biggest problem I see with those numbers, Half, is the positional requirements of backstab vs hemo.

Just a thought.

Lethality still works with Hemorrage right? So for PvP don't you think for a Hemo Build would be better to take Lethality over Dual Wield? Anyway going for Assassination even losing DW I think first tiers in Assassination are strong then on Combat.

And while on Assassination we can take Blood Spatter that increases the Damage of Garrote (Even better with Shadowdance) and Rupture (also good against Warriors, Druids and DKs?).

I think getting Vile Poisons and Using Wound Poison MainHand and Crippling offhand would make a bit for the loss of damage of DW (in PvP situations ofc - since yellow is most of our damage if you can't stay on the target, and considering the ShadowStep nerf that would not be far from true).

I would go with something like this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Regarding Backstab hemo... I know it sounds good on paper, but unless SS was a very good mobility spell (which isn't now) you are going to be faced a lot of times with having to fight face to face with your opponent, that means.. no backstab, spamming shiv sucks. Playing against a warrior with a Backstab Build should be bad... even worse then with mutilate. So I think Hemo will always be a better solution outside duels and BG ganking).

In my opinion, Kreoss, Combat (and therefore DW) kind of speaks for itself in that you can take Precision.... I know a ton of my sockets are eaten up right now by hit gems, and I'd love to get those cleared out and replaced with some added Agi/AP... plus more +hit means more landed white hits.

Blood Spatter is VERY nice, almost worth switching over there IMO, but the other points you need to put in Ass are nearly wasted. With Resilience being what it is these days, I'm very much against any talent that bolsters crit % or critical damage.

Just to add a bit more to that, Slaughter from the Shadows is pretty damned awesome, I don't think I'd leave 30 energy Hemo out of any Hemo build. Add some of the other 41-point talents, some cooldown-reducing glyphs, and you have one very nasty bag of tricks. (3 minute prep, anyone?) The only talents I really regret not getting are Vigor and Endurance, and it's not worth sacrificing the energy reduction on Hemo and Shadow Dance, except in the case, maybe, of a 5v5 burster who needs extra survivability.

I like to experiment a lot and plan to play Mutilate/Holy Paladin with 3.0.2. Blessing of Freedom combined with Fleet Footed sounds just awesome. I expect this combination to work well against burst teams, as well as warlock teams.

Any thoughts on this combination ?

PvP honor points are going to be reset for WotLK

Source: World of Warcraft (English) Forums -> Upcoming Honor Items and Honor Reset

The hunter changes seem dramatic. I tend more and more to a high mobility build. Sorrowly Fleet Footed, ShS and Improved Sprint cannot be combined. I think as strong as Mutilate looks right now the problem of getting kited is too big. The only way is to work with a death knight, paladin or frost mage with a 41-0-21 plus X spec.

In my humble opinion the only other solution is to get an high mobility build with those possibilites as basis; 0-17+41 or 22-5-41

I've thought about it before, but does anyone have a excel sheet or a list with Agility and AP break points for Deadliness / Sinister Calling?

Has anyone done some 1vs1 or arenas against the new ret pally, fury/arms warrior or DK? Are we even more of a 2 hit wonders for them, comparing to tbc?

kinda looked through here quick, can i get a link to a sword build at 70 for patch 3.0? PVP