Maharishi

You can leash them if you're lucky enough to stay mounted.

 

tai

How should I spec for pvp as a sword rogue?
Don't have access to any decent daggers.

 

stimpack

Mages are tricky, I usually let my arena partner attack first, and wait for the mage to stop jumping around and try to cast something that takes a cast time. Then i open up with my garrot and try to get in a mutilate before he blinks off. From there i use my deadly throw to slow him down while i sprint over to him, using my escape artist ability to dump any slowing he has on me. From there i try to stun him down, or just keep him on the run. Im just mainly there to keep him from spam casting dmg, and running around while my lock partner stacks dots and fears off the mages partner as much as possible. I assist in that with tossing in a blind.

Hunters i just outright try to lockdown. And i blind there pet. Again with my lock partner we can typically drill someone down quickly. If the fight takes more then a few minutes we will loose tho. Health stones only help soo much.

 

silotallaja

Havent tried this in arena yet, but with just 1v1 mages dont seem to be a problem. I'm using 44/5/12 build and opening on mages with CB ambush and right after that spam mut, this will take the hp of most mages to 50% or less, at this point he either blinks -> sprint and KS = mage dead, Blocks -> vanish and start over or Ice nova -> clos and keep nuking. Don't use your points on him unless he has blinked, then go for KS and he is dead, or will block -> vanish and start over. If he trinkets+nova, then just blind him. It still is a CD heavy fight, but we stand a chance against them even if they perform everything perfect. Can't say much about hunters though, it can go either way, especially with BM ones. My tactic usually involves hugging them, blind pet and avoid any cc they might put on you.

According to different assa builds, i tested them out on dummies. Started with 51/3/7 and ended with my current one and looked only dps. Applied max EA, tried to keep up HfB if build had it, max snd and the outcome was 1050 DPS with 51/3/7 while keeping HfB up, 1170 DPS with the same build, but didnt keep up the HfB, 1300DPS with 46/5/10 (3/5 relentless) and 1250DPS with 44/5/12. I went with the last one, it gave me 5/5 relentless and thus reliable energy return. I'd exchange that for 50DPS any time.

 

Devalaentar

The mages you're fighting must be terribad, or they aren't 51 Frost. A CB Ambush at best will just drop their Ice Barrier, doing close to zero damage, and by that time they've blinked (or walked 2 yards out of your range) and you're rooted. In a 1v1 situation it's just damn near impossible to defeat a competent mage as Mutilate. If you went 17 deep into Combat for Imp Sprint that may help, but I haven't tried it. They have too many roots/snares, a lot of mitigation and now Deep Freeze.

The only duel where I came within reach of killing a mage was when he agreed to not use his Elemental. I'm certainly not Glad material, but I know my class pretty well, as well as the mages; and I can tell you that with Mut's lack of anti-kiting abilities and a mages now superb kiting abilites, it's a very very difficult fight.

 

silotallaja

Tried that on full brut mages. Will go and try some more today and see how it goes. The key of the initial ambush is to burst through the barrier, usually it goes through and yields around 1000 dam also, the mutilte what follows does the majority of the work. Will go and find some more mages to practice on. Maybe it is so terrible as you have stated.

 

Devalaentar

The problem with that Ambush though is that if offers NO control. If the mage is quick enough he can blink before you even get a chance to throw in that unmitigated Mutilate. I just felt that the mages ability to outlast our cooldowns is far superior than before. I definitely need to do some more duels, but initial reaction = mages can kite you around pretty bad, forcing your limited CD's then just waiting them out.

 

Troisloeil

I've re-spec'd to 5/52/4, CS. Before the patch my swords build was a solid all around. While the changes haven't in anyway reduced my DPS, and my energy regen seems to be solid, my survivability seems to have gone in the toilet. I'm getting freight trained by other melee classes, and Mobs are getting a way bigger piece then they did.
Am I going to be forced to start going for Dodge/Parry now?
I don't really care for the Hemo/SS/Mut builds, never have. I find that sooner or later I'm energy starved praying for a proc like it's rain and their survivability is (was) lower.

Either this is a change so major, my play style in PvP is trashed, or I'm missing something here. At this point I'm seriously considering backing out of Killing Spree (it isn't THAT useful, but it is fun) to beef up avoidance (Lightning Reflexes). I've noticed I do no DPS when I'm dead....... ;-)

Previously in PvE, I could "Fake tank" long enough for my mains to pick up the target in a scramble. It gave us a HUGE tactical advantage. These days I'm cautious to even try it for concern that I'll get chopped, insuring a wipe.

I work with a pally (Holy believe it or not), and I have a sneaking suspicion that with these changes, my team just isn't going to be viable because of the lack of HoTs. We've been able to effectively overcome this with better tactics, and our overall high level of survivability, but if mine is nerf'd enough, my pally just doesn't have enough spam-able heals.

Obviously, there are things here that shine in one area or the other (PvP v PvE). To be pure, there are things I could get rid of (Imp Sprint & Killing Spree). The key here is all around. Until dual spec is released, respec-ing once a week is silly.

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Rogue -> Talent Calculator

Any useful thoughts? Assume I'm staying CS, (Human racials), or at least remaining Sword.

 

Devalaentar

Survivability is something everyone deals with right now, because of all the crazy dps people are putting out with the new talents. You have to keep in mind that this isn't tuned for 70. Once players hit 80 things will balance out. Just play with specs to learn them all, and try to learn how to counter all the other classes talents as well. That's really all there is to do till Wrath haha.

 

Troisloeil

Ugh! That blows so much you're likely correct.

I suppose I was under the false impression they wouldn't jack all the work we've done to this point in the game. With Survivability being core to the Combat spec,, as a trade for the burst you get from other specs, I somehow had the impression they wouldn't give me the finger.

I'd trade Fan of Knives for Killing Spree any day and twice on Sunday, and for this kinda crap I gotta give up being hard to hit? I wanna meet the moron who thought that was a good idea. We need an AoE, and they bury this crap at the bottom of the tree. I'm dumping it as soon as I get around to re-spec. Prey on the Weak or Lightning Reflex's at least are worth it.

I'm really trying hard to get with the changes and not be a typical class QQ(whiner), but being heavy Combat seems to blow all of a sudden.

OK, so the question becomes, "Where IS the survivability now?". Is it there at all? I'm not seeing it in Sub, and unless you go deep Assassination and get Cheat Death, I'm not seeing much there. In the end does it basically mean we just need to go even MORE Agi crazy to the exclusion of everything else (AP, Crit, Hit) no matter what (PvE or PvP)?

Is this ALL caused by the changes to dodge? My parry seems to proc per usual.

Just trying to get a grasp on what's going on. The Dodge change didn't seem like it would cause THAT much of a change.

Thanks for any feedback folks.

 

Hildegard

Eviscerate has gotten really strong. With the glyph and 3 points in improved Eviscerate instead of Ruthlessnes one can build up a very decent burst combo. Right now the fights are so incredibly fast that I like to have a real finisher.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

mofidik

I might be wrong, but I see a few flaws in your reasoning.

First off, before Shs and only then was combat our survivability tree. Not because sub wasn't good for surviving, but because it wasn't good for anything but surviving. Ever after they boosted the damage and mobility in sub it has been our utility tree, and assassination was our burst tree if you didn't have PvE gear. Combat? Who actually specced combat after S2 to arena? The spec is about sustained PvE damage, but without mobility you get very mere results for dumping points in it even damage-wise.

Now, I've done my part of PvP as combat (not bothering to respec after raids) and I can tell you, even running with over 100 resilience more than you're wearing (you're waaaaay low for a none-sub spec) the survivability is still bad without a healer, and with 200 resil/1.8k AP (PvE gear) the damage out of ARs doesn't win you 1v1's against equal geared/skilled opponents, save classes like mages/hunters that you simply cannot beat.

Where's the survivability now? In nerves of steel, and the spring glyph when we get it. Survivability through dodge/parry dates back from when rogue/druid was a UFO and rogues were trying to figure out how on earth we could beat warriors. In any PvP outside arenas, you're not going to muscle tank anything anyway. You're a finesse class, play that way. And get more resilience.

Nowadays combat has been given some respectable burst through killing spree (fairly nice showcase: Cylia 2.5: Killing Spree By Cylia), but the mobility is still piss. To the result that, as you can see, a karazhan geared frost mage can take half of a full S4 rogue's HP without being _any_ good.

¬(-.-¬) maek stabs!

 

Hildegard

Combat looked very good for as long as the Sprint Glyph change wasn't added. One minute improved sprint, 25% increased Energy generation, undodgeable kidney shot, an undispellable snare, Improved Kick (really good for killing mages) looked interesting enough to consider it. But with the change to the Sprint Glyph the mobility is just too bad now.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

mofidik

Yea, just found out they nerfed the sprint glyph. On the note of, what are people thinking when it comes to glyphs? As for minors the only one I can see being remotely useful is the [Glyph of Vanish]. Then you have [Glyph of Distract] for....ehm...yea. Not too sure about major ones, they all seem to be very very lacklustre so I'm not entirely sure what'd be the best of increase but I'm assuming at least [Glyph of Eviscerate] will be cookie cutter.

¬(-.-¬) maek stabs!

 

Hildegard

At least in battlegrounds the Glyph of Distract will be worth it. It just works so often on flag carriers. Right now I use Eviscerate and Slice and Dice. Both work with PVE and PVP well. For PVE I use Eviscerate if I get unlucky with Deadly Poison procs and want to refresh Slice and Dice. For level 80 I expect the Glyph of Vigor to become very good. 130 Energy, Overkill and Dirty Tricks really add up for putting early pressure on enemy teams or killing pets right away. It's basically an Renataki on every restealth.

By the way: For Sublety fillers I am thinking of Camouflage instead of Setup or Initiative. First of all getting openers will be way easier, secondly restealths will be a lot easier and combo points aren't a real issue with Mutilate and Seal Fate. Opinions ?

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

Trazhenko

Unless something has changed, the speed increase from camo doesn't stack with fleet footed (which I'm assuming you would have in a PvP Mut build), so all you get is the cooldown reduction.

 

Playaskillz

I plan to spec camo with the prep mutilate build. I may not do 3/3 though because I think it takes 5 seconds? to come out of combat in PvP, so a 4 second cooldown on stealth wouldn't help unless something weird happened... like I got flared and the hunter didn't attack me and I was able to re-stealth after 4 seconds. I'm definitely doing 2/3 and maybe 3/3. I try to restealth as often as I can, even in situations where others might consider it silly... Maybe I'm just careful. Anyway, with overkill and max 130 energy, restealthing will be even more attractive and Camo will make it faster and easier to do it more often.

130 max energy, overkill... It should be extremely advantageous to re-stealth much more often than most rogues do. Gouge and run around a pillar for an extra second and you've got a re-stealth for what adds up to maybe 40 extra energy from overkill when you do open, and you might get to refill to your max 130 energy.

My first post here!

*Editing so I don't embarrass myself so badly.

 

Devalaentar

You can't get Premed with a Mutilate build.

 

Playaskillz

My bad, was thinking of another hybrid build. Sorry about that, I guess the rest of the post works, just no premed.

 

drumbum

Camouflage is not considered a "movement speed increasing effect" and therefore does stack with Fleet Footed or with other movement speed increasing effects like minor speed enchants and even Sprint. (And it has always worked this way.) There is at least one addon out there that will calculate your in-game observed movement speed which can be used to verify this.

3/3 Camouflage combined with 2/2 Fleet Footed will give you a movement speed of 97.75% in stealth and 115% out of stealth (where 100% is normal walking with no movement speed related talents/enchants). It is calculated like so:

stealth speed = (1-a)(1+b)

a = snare caused by stealth, 30% untalented, reduced to 15% with 3/3 Camouflage (yes it subtracts, Camouflage is not a multiplicative increase)
b = normal movement speed increase

 

Trazhenko

Hmm, my mistake I guess. I just recall trying it out once on a PTR (I don't remember which patch) and being disappointed with my low speed. Maybe I'll take camo in my leveling build afterall.

 

Troisloeil

I've always preferred Combat because of it's utility.The math certainly appears to support your position, however, I wasn't finding mobility and survivability to be an issue pre-patch. Most likely due to style more then spec. I work with a healer, you betcha. Definitely wouldn't try it this spec without one. Keeping in mind, I'm not trying for a 2K rating, if that was the case, I'd dump my partner for a Druid like everyone else. I do it because it improves my skills overall, and pushes me to be tactically creative in fights to get the win.

I can't say if I was in my PvP gear or not, my Res is sitting above 245. For the most part I have a strat to deal with each class. Admittedly, I depend heavily on poisons, and my team wins long fights regularly believe it or not, which is part of what set me wondering what changed. I'm still not impressed with the changes to NoS. I had previously bought it up, and found that it's actual utility, like with Weapon Twisting, left a lot to be desired. The issue with it now is I don't especially care about the dots, CoS and they're gone, Weapon Twisting seems to have made a comeback as I'm actually seeing a significant number of procs, Riposte was where I definitely made my meat. Fighting a warrior hurts a lot less if he doesn't have a weapon to whack you with. Another place they've changed. Dismantle in it's own way is great, once. If it's a cloth wearer, great, win, now however, fighting a warrior becomes much more problematic, even with the reduction in melee rate Riposte now imposes.
I definitely agree on the sprint Glyph, it has some all around uses I hadn't anticipated, which makes it much stronger then it seems. DPS seems to remain solid, and I have seen the bump to my burst, especially with judicious use of Spree and BF. Which appears to be about it's only real use. Swapping to the SS glyph should take that up, just picked that up.

I'm really hoping they get these server issues ironed out so I can attempt to run some solid numbers and see what's really going on.
I should mention I've taken to wearing the +24 dodge Stormpike trinket and have noticed a marked improvement. Without the need to wear the PvP trinket, that slot is giving me a lot more utility.

 

Devalaentar

I don't really see the same problem you're having. Yea they nerfed rogues dodge rating, but it's not that noticeable to me. I certainly don't notice it to a point where I'm centering my build and gear around survivability. As Mofidik stated, we're a finesse class. We have the tools of survivability, we just have to use them correctly. I just don't see it in such a way where I have to wear level 51 gear for simple dodge rating that only gives me an additional 1.2% to dodge.

 

Troisloeil

Finesse is clearly part of the spec, we ain't wearing metal. It's more an issue of increased emphasis from slight tweaks. All the attack power in the world is no use if u only get off once. The tweak to Ret's seems to have helped a bit as well. Coming as a physical attack is reducing the chunk they get off the first blast. Making it more of a "who makes a mistake first?" contest. If you're not noticing it, your play style may be different then mine, certainly not unreasonable.

It's more a matter of utility then item level. And I'm not sure what you're using, mine is a level 6, not a level 1 Blue. It's a defensive trinket, from my point of view, even though I will/am get DPS out of it (Unfair Advantage), regardless of the item level, the most important thing is "is it doing what I need it to do?" An extra 1.2%, while small, and not as high as I could get it, seems to make enough of a change to tilt it somewhat back in "my favor". My main question is where's that imaginary "line" now? Around 30% did it for me before. Since the change my dodge is down to 24%.

Again, I'm going to try and pull some numbers with several different layouts and see what I get. Unfortunately I don't have a real world pre-patch baseline to use, as I never tested it for what really happens previously.
I'm noticing it heavily as a combat. Movement, work the edges of the "combat circle" around your target, and avoidance have to this point tended to be the best base formula, don't be there when they want to clout you one. Mixed with wise use of CD's, it provided a reasonable level of survivability, provided you fight with your head. I'm not attempting to "tank" here.

 

mofidik

Well, let me get this straight: you're focusing on dodge at the cost of what other stat? And what exactly made you want to get a high doge chance?

Reason I'm asking is because mathematically dodge is with a few exceptions a poor stat, for a few reasons. First off, if you really want dodge, there's evasion (and ghostly when specced). It's not always there, but as far as far as arena is concerned it's usually enough (moreso with prep) to take the burden of your healer or stress of DPS being pounded into you, if the opponent loses significant damage to you dodging.
Which brings me to the second and probably most important point: not all classes have dodgeable attacks, or lose significant DPS to a rogue with high dodge. Dodge is only frontal mitigation, when not stunned. This probably is pretty dduuurrr, but it honestly makes the stat very lacklustre when you think about it. The only class you'll heavily cripple by using evasion is a mutilate rogue due to disallowing him to land a KS without using his CloS. Shs can KS from behind, combat has undodgable finishers (for again, a "guaranteed" KS) and warriors can either stun through intercept or overpower through it to maintain a decent portion of ordinary damage.
All this is the reason why the only time when dodge actually comes into discussion when you're seriously min/maxing for PvP, is whether you gem for Agi or AP. Due to Agi and AP being decently on par damage wise and agi giving a slight armour and dodge bonus some prefer it over pure AP. But in reality, unless you're going to beam back to S2 and want to tank warriors; resilience, stamina and heck even armour are superior stats for your defence.

Now I realise you're not trying to min/max, I'm only trying to make you aware of the fact (not sure if you are or if you're just being stubborn ) that you're gimping your potentional quite severely. If you enjoy the game by [trying to] muscle tanking warriors power to you, but I'd really advice changing your mindset to more dodging with WASD/ESDF instead of in all-in-all maybe 10% chance to avoid a swing after factoring all of point 3 in. I enjoy it more, at least!

¬(-.-¬) maek stabs!