Prior to 3.0.2 I was run of the mill ShS Rogue, but have since specced 51/5/5 as my partner (Moonkin) and I both agreed that our 2v2 would probably fare better as a burst team with the changes from the latest patch. Currently I am running Wound MH and Instant OH, with a second OH having Mindnumbing that is macro'd for quick switching. Due to server instability during the first week of Arenas since the patch, we could only get about 14 matches before we gave up after losing six of those due to severe lag or myself or my partner being denied entry due to "Teleport Aborted Due To Instance Not Found".
Since I had only a limited opportunity to use this combination of poisons, I was just curious what other burst team Rogues are looking at for damage as well as some type of utility from their poisons. My current reasoning for this poison combination is that Wound and Instant are both fairly decent damage and both proc Crippling. Deadly, although might be more damage and add an additional finisher, you fail to get the Crippling proc. So if there are flaws in my reasoning, please let me know.
You really ought to pick up Relentless Strikes and Improved Eviscerate (along with the Eviscerate glyph). Being able to throw in a 4k+ crit for 10 energy in the middle of your "burst" is pretty significant. Hunger for Blood is just way too weak in its current form to be worth taking over some of the Sub talents.
Totally agree about re-doing my spec to get rid of HfB. I had zero Beta or PTR experience and wanted to try it out. I am underwhelmed to say the least. I usually put up the three charges so that the initial burst has the 9% additional damage, but after that I am usually starved for energy and don't want to waste them on refreshing the HfB. I was actually thinking of changing to this spec Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
In any form of 51/5/5 pvp specc, what ignores CttC renewing hfb in the fight will cost you around 100dps. I tested this out on dummies. Starting with it maxed helps to burst, but after that its a loss of dps. By renewing it while off target is a whole other matter, but in arenas, going in again with half an energy bar is just plain stupid. For me it just messed up things too much and found the bleed removal only good against one warr, when we were left 1v1.
I started to wonder, where to take out pts in my specc to get imp.evi. I have 44/5/12 specc where i already sacrificed 1 pt from imp ks and one from find weakness. Ruthlessness?
Personally I prefer this spec for mutilate. I believe it to be a solid build for all arena brackets. It is not the best for a burst 2v2 team, however it is very solid for everything else.
Prior to 3.0.2 I was run of the mill ShS Rogue, but have since specced 51/5/5 as my partner (Moonkin) and I both agreed that our 2v2 would probably fare better as a burst team with the changes from the latest patch. Currently I am running Wound MH and Instant OH, with a second OH having Mindnumbing that is macro'd for quick switching. Due to server instability during the first week of Arenas since the patch, we could only get about 14 matches before we gave up after losing six of those due to severe lag or myself or my partner being denied entry due to "Teleport Aborted Due To Instance Not Found".
Since I had only a limited opportunity to use this combination of poisons, I was just curious what other burst team Rogues are looking at for damage as well as some type of utility from their poisons. My current reasoning for this poison combination is that Wound and Instant are both fairly decent damage and both proc Crippling. Deadly, although might be more damage and add an additional finisher, you fail to get the Crippling proc. So if there are flaws in my reasoning, please let me know.
I believe Wound Poison (50% proc rate) is more damage than untalented Instant Poison (20% proc rate). Plus the former will 'double' your Wound uptime (well improve it, anyway) against pesky cleansers.
Basically, you possibly want Wound/Wound against non-casters, and Wound/Mind Numb against casters.
If you can't keep your Wound on due to cleansing, the latter is slightly better (two different poisons), and if you still can't, Wound/Deadly will protect your Wound the best.
I was a long time shadowstep rogue and liked my new version of shadowstep hemo with dual wield, vigor, etc. However, my damage was still sub par. Combat was cool, but definitely lame vs other rogues and was pretty bad with getting kited. So I finally bit the bullet and dropped mongoose on my two s2 daggers and went mutilate (44/5/something with imp sap). I am just destroying people and I love it. From owning through finesse and combos a fully geared warrior, laughing at ret paladins without bubble up, and quite literally two shotting 0 resilience 70 players... I have never felt more roguelike.
My only complaint so far is indeed mages! They seem to be our counter class at the moment. However, I am switching up to the Garrote major glyph (dropping S&D) and I think this is the correct opener vs a mage (not ambush). We should get at least two garrotes off in a fight and force an iceblock so we can then use our sprint and cloak offensively. Maybe we use expose armor, but combo points are so precious vs them, I'm not sure.
Anyway it feels great to be mutilate - like a strong class again. I really can't wait for mutilate / prep. Wow! That's most likely the solution to mages... This is my rough draft of 41/5/25 so far: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - I really think we may need to be dot-heavy vs 25k opponents wearing plate and Blood Spatter + Serrated Blades + Garrote Glyph is the answer.
What I don't get is Focused Attacks. Is this actually an overpowered talent or just ho-hum? I don't feel THAT energy starved with 120 energy, relentless strikes, and quick recovery, but sure... a little extra energy would be great.
Add this once you hit 80; you could take Initiative's points for Setup.
Note that Improved eviscerate should be a good talent to take at level 80. (Remove Imp EA and 1 point in Blood Splatter.) http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...20000000000000
I find those build awesome for both Arena and BGs.
I find those build awesome for both Arena and BGs.
I use double Wounds or Wounds + Mind numbling.
I'll say instant/wound instead of double wound, because u need the burst dmg from poison to.
For a nice envenom finishing i recommend deadly/wound - but eviscerate finisher with eviscerate glyph is imba atm
For casters is pretty good the mind-numbling/wound but not quite because the dependence of the burst is a must.
why instant/wound - double 100% procs on applying crippling is nice because u need to stick with your target if have that 5/5 dual welling. (from this spec 42/5/14)
what i just tested last night was the benefits from 5/5dual welling
0/5 dual welling - mutilate crits (MH over 1.5k-2.2kmax + OH 300-1kmax)
5/5 dual welling - mutilate crits (MH over 1.5k-2.2kmax + OH 500-670 - 1.7-1.9kmax)
_________________
this tests were made with S2 daggers (see my char)
I'll say instant/wound instead of double wound, because u need the burst dmg from poison to.
For a nice envenom finishing i recommend deadly/wound - but eviscerate finisher with eviscerate glyph is imba atm
For casters is pretty good the mind-numbling/wound but not quite because the dependence of the burst is a must.
why instant/wound - double 100% procs on applying crippling is nice because u need to stick with your target if have that 5/5 dual welling. (from this spec 42/5/14
The Instant Poison proc doesn't compare to having more poison uptime on targets. Now that Wound doesn't stack it gets wiped very easily, so having MN in conjunction with Wound and Crippling helps keep your poisons applied. Since your Mutilate damage relies so heavily on targets being poisoned, it's better to have an extra application of poisons to help ensure you're not getting a gimped Mutilate. Plus with double Wound you get the benefit of having that healing debuff up more often which in turn means your target is easier to kill.
Last edited by Devalaentar : 10/29/08 at 4:42 PM.
Reason: Drumbum nailed it.
So I took a month or so off from the game and I came back to play my rogue a bit. I did 8/2/51 using swords and shadow dance seems to offer a lot of control. I did a quick BG and then dueled a few people outside of org. Warrior destroyed me but but most of that I think was due to me not having abilities on the bar and also my rustiness.
Anyone else this setup? I basically sap->CS->SS->5pt Rupture-> SS -> KS-> SS->Shadow Dance-> CS-> SS and if they aint dead yet one more KS.
Well, let me get this straight: you're focusing on dodge at the cost of what other stat? And what exactly made you want to get a high doge chance?
Reason I'm asking is because mathematically dodge is with a few exceptions a poor stat, for a few reasons. First off, if you really want dodge, there's evasion (and ghostly when specced). It's not always there, but as far as far as arena is concerned it's usually enough (moreso with prep) to take the burden of your healer or stress of DPS being pounded into you, if the opponent loses significant damage to you dodging.
Which brings me to the second and probably most important point: not all classes have dodgeable attacks, or lose significant DPS to a rogue with high dodge. Dodge is only frontal mitigation, when not stunned. This probably is pretty dduuurrr, but it honestly makes the stat very lacklustre when you think about it. The only class you'll heavily cripple by using evasion is a mutilate rogue due to disallowing him to land a KS without using his CloS. Shs can KS from behind, combat has undodgable finishers (for again, a "guaranteed" KS) and warriors can either stun through intercept or overpower through it to maintain a decent portion of ordinary damage.
All this is the reason why the only time when dodge actually comes into discussion when you're seriously min/maxing for PvP, is whether you gem for Agi or AP. Due to Agi and AP being decently on par damage wise and agi giving a slight armor and dodge bonus some prefer it over pure AP. But in reality, unless you're going to beam back to S2 and want to tank warriors; resilience, stamina and heck even armour are superior stats for your defence.
Now I realise you're not trying to min/max, I'm only trying to make you aware of the fact (not sure if you are or if you're just being stubborn ) that you're gimping your potentional quite severely. If you enjoy the game by [trying to] muscle tanking warriors power to you, but I'd really advice changing your mindset to more dodging with WASD/ESDF instead of in all-in-all maybe 10% chance to avoid a swing after factoring all of point 3 in. I enjoy it more, at least!
First, lemme say thanks for your feedback. I tend to go by "feel" and look for evidence to back up my impressions, one way or another. You make strong points.
Couple things I'm noticing adding in the feedback so far, in PvE, Unfair Advantage is devastating, I've proc'd it for 2K+ on mobs, lag is KILLING me!!! Literally. 2 interesting things I've noticed so far, it APPEARS to proc off dodged spells, an Ice Lance from a Mage standing to close. In THIS case, it killed the Mage. Downside, not surprisingly, with Resil, the bite is not what it could be (~700 in this case). Definately speaks strongly to your contentions, AP or Crit would serve far more effectively if the proc is regular enough. Presuming you Dodge enough.
Killing Spree does not suck as bad as I first thought. Practice , practice. Timing can net you multiple kills on one pop in a BG like AB. If there's no positioning issues, it's showing strong just about anytime I have BF up against multiple targets. It's a bit fast, and more then a little disorienting, but time it with an AoE......and it's "Killing Spree FTW".
So far none of my tracking mods are picking up damage from UA, gleaning the combat logs is tedious, checking for something to help with that.
I'm almost hesitant to bother doing much real testing. Until they get this load balanced, combat has turned in to a "did that go off?!?" quiz. Bad everywhere, worse in BG's, there are just no WORD's for what Arena's been like.
Totally agree about re-doing my spec to get rid of HfB. I had zero Beta or PTR experience and wanted to try it out. I am underwhelmed to say the least. I usually put up the three charges so that the initial burst has the 9% additional damage, but after that I am usually starved for energy and don't want to waste them on refreshing the HfB. I was actually thinking of changing to this spec Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
In my opinion as a burst team you should drop focused attacks and put the 3 points in imp. kidney shot.
I would also consider to drop blood spatter and put the 2 points into
a) 2/2 Elusiveness or
b) 2/2 Dirty Tricks, 1/2 Elusiveness
but thats just a matter of opinion and your personal playstyle.
In my opinion as a burst team you should drop focused attacks and put the 3 points in imp. kidney shot.
I would also consider to drop blood spatter and put the 2 points into
a) 2/2 Elusiveness or
b) 2/2 Dirty Tricks, 1/2 Elusiveness
but thats just a matter of opinion and your personal playstyle.
As a Mutilate rogue since before 2.4, this feels simply right. It optimises on the talents needed for burst and the ones needed for sticking to the target.
The assassination is basically feeding off the old 49/0/12 build, minus the improved poisons and improved expose since they don't affect wounding or mind numbing and no longer reduces armor by more. Deadly Brew is a talent from god.
The subtlety part may seem a bit weird but the relentless strikes is pretty much needed if you want the KS-> 2xMut(squeezing in a third in most cases right as it ends), the single point in camouflage is for the times when you need to unstealth after sapping for a bandage or cannibalize or w/e in the 1v1 situation and being able to restealth in time. 1 point in serrated blades because it is more armor ignore, more damage, better than a second in camo.
As a Mutilate rogue since before 2.4, this feels simply right. It optimises on the talents needed for burst and the ones needed for sticking to the target.
The assassination is basically feeding off the old 49/0/12 build, minus the improved poisons and improved expose since they don't affect wounding or mind numbing and no longer reduces armor by more. Deadly Brew is a talent from god.
The subtlety part may seem a bit weird but the relentless strikes is pretty much needed if you want the KS-> 2xMut(squeezing in a third in most cases right as it ends), the single point in camouflage is for the times when you need to unstealth after sapping for a bandage or cannibalize or w/e in the 1v1 situation and being able to restealth in time. 1 point in serrated blades because it is more armor ignore, more damage, better than a second in camo.
HfB is not worth the extra points, even at 80.
Your built is not too bad, there is just one thing confusing me.
Why don't you put 5/5 points into Dual Wield Specialisation? As far as I can remember its still the talent that increases our damage the most.
Will the amount of resilience you need "reset" to some extent at 80, or will Arena players be starting off playing with their current best season level-70 gear, or random blues, honor sets, or just waiting to get the first season of level-80 gear?
I've been spending a lot of time thinking about the rogue vs. paladin matchup. Here are my thoughts:
Ret paladins have 4 defensive abilities to turn this fight(Repentance, Hammer of Justice, PVP Trinket, Bubble); all of them are on 60+ second cooldowns. A smart ret paladin will use the shortest cooldown ability possible; generally starting with either HoJ or Repentance.
Assume the rogue always opens from stealth with Cheap Shot followed by a 5 pt Kidney Shot.
Paladin may choose to trinket or bubble off the kidney shot (focus for the rogue during cheap shot is building up to 5pt Kidney, trinketing/bubbling out of that stun costs the rogue more in terms of resources spent). If this happens, rogue should try to disengage (Cloak + Sprint, Vanish, etc). It's suboptimal for the paladin to break the stun earlier.
If paladin does not break stunlock, rogue should ensure that paladin is unable to act offensively when stunlock ends. Most paladins will come out of the stunlock leading with Repentance or HoJ. I generally favor HoJ here as the Repentance can catch the rogue at range if they choose to Sprint disengage.
Before the stunlock ends, the rogue should do something to prevent the paladin from acting offensively until either a stun can be reestablished or the rogue can disengage. Dismantle is probably the best option here as it forces the paladin to play defensively and/or pop bubble. Following that, we can cloak (increase chance to avoid initial stun), arcane torrent (prevents paladin from using abilities for first 2 GCDs or so), or possibly Gouge/blind.
From this point, there are a few things to look at - the number of defensive cooldowns the paladin has left (bubble especially), the remaining mana the paladin has, and your health compared to the paladin's health. You should bandage when you can.
Once the bubble is gone, you pretty much win this fight. Surviving the bubble is key - cloak + sprint + vanish is entirely reasonable to counter the bubble. Shadowstep can also prevent autoattack/Crusader Strike damage if timed correctly. If the paladin takes time to heal self while bubbled, it's a free win.
Holy plays out pretty similarly, only the paladin will most likely be playing defensively from the start, and they don't have access to Repentance, which makes locking them down even easier.
Am I missing something? I understand getting away from a bubbled ret paladin is the hardest part of the fight; you should trinket out of the stun they will almost assuredly throw here.
You missed something rather big, HoF (hand of freedom) can be cast on yourself when stunned and breaks stun. A smart pally will use it on the 5pt Kidney, Hammer + judge (with RV you now have a dot on you so, cloak + vanish / sprint is needed to disengage).
During the hammer if you dont trinket it you will die, or be low enough so it wont matter. Trinket and dismantle, use any and all offensive abilities and try to get the paladin down some (he will instacast FoL from the Judge crit he got on you from the hammer). Once the dismantle is over, if the paladin managed to not bubble and has a decent amount of HP (over 50%) you should sprint/vanish and attemptt o reset until your cooldowns are up again.
Against a paladin who knows what he is doing its fairly hard as subtility, Mutilate rogues have more burst and will always get a buble while they dismantle.
Trinket the stun, Cloak save it if you have to run, to avoid a repentance while sprint is active. If you are attempting to restealth or reset and he lands it he will get a nice crit + JoJ so you are forced to fight him and most likley die.
Why would a Ret Paladin ever not spec into Divine Purpose and just effectively have a free trinket? I can't think of a single scenario where it's un-favourable to spec into Divine Purpose, as it completely mitigates Mutilate Rogue's burst and control, not only this but it's also game-breaking against another ret paladin, and negates frost mage's 51 talent point spell, what reason is there for not speccing it?.
Why would a Ret Paladin ever not spec into Divine Purpose and just effectively have a free trinket? I can't think of a single scenario where it's un-favourable to spec into Divine Purpose, as it completely mitigates Mutilate Rogue's burst and control, not only this but it's also game-breaking against another ret paladin, and negates frost mage's 51 talent point spell, what reason is there for not speccing it?.
Edit - beaten.
There's the whole "three paladins in my guild failed to notice Divine Purpose" thing. That might have something to do with it.
I'm trying to figure out specifically why my rogue partner can't seem to even come close to beating me (frequently I don't need to use more than HoJ) whereas other rogues tear me a new one. What it boils down to is that his spec is strange (16/0/45 with no Vigor, Cheat Death) and I suspect that he's lacking on the finer points of rogue control.
His build is a bit iffy for 2v2. Since he has badge fists he could go malice + Close Quarter Combat and 51 sub. Honor among thieves is horrible for duels, and bad for 2v2, seeing as all it takes is a bit of crowd control to make it be worth 0 "real" combo points over a fight.
Have him dismantle as cheep shot is ending and then kidney. If they get out they are still unable to do much due to the disarm, but keep in mind sub is still not a great burst spec unless you go for full subtility and ambush x3.
10/25/08, 10:59 AM
) that you're gimping your potentional quite severely. If you enjoy the game by [trying to] muscle tanking warriors power to you, but I'd really advice changing your mindset to more dodging with WASD/ESDF instead of in all-in-all maybe 10% chance to avoid a swing after factoring all of point 3 in. I enjoy it more, at least!
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