I'm a huge fan of combat in PvP ever since 3.0.
So combat shiv saw it's demise with the removal of the Shiv glyph of the removal of Shiv from combat potency... for PvE at least. I suspect it is still valuable for PvP. Sinister Strike may do more DPS, but consider the following advantges of glyphing and speccing for shiv:
-Poison damage ignores armor, making Shiv more ideal against heavy armor foes.
-You free up a lot of talent points that would otherwise be spent buffing Sinister Strike. A lot of combat filler is extremely useful in PvP (though useless in PvE).
-You free up another major glyph spot, though you probably don't need it. My preference would probably be Evasion, Deadly Throw, and Crippling Poison. Instead of picking two to go with SS, you can take all three.
Now there are of course disadvantages:
-As mentioned before, you'll do less damage with shiv especially against low armor targets where sinister strike can tear the apart.
-You can't rely on shiv to proc a cripple when you need it, since you HAVE to run instant poison to make shiv viable.
I think all of the extra talent points make up for it though. Turning down so many useful PvP-related fillers to do slightly more damage simply isn't worth it in my mind. With that in mind, my ideal PvP spec would look something like this: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000
A few things might be worth moving around, but I feel this is a fairly strong combat build in PvP.
As first I assumed a Shiv build was ridiculous with the nerfs to Combat Potency and removal of the Shiv glyph, but I checked it anyway and it does appear to be similar in DPE to a fully talented Sinister Strike. However I'm not really sure how much attack power, melee crit, and spell crit we can expect to have in full PVP gear at level 80, so I'm sort of just guessing.
Does anyone from beta have a good approximation for how much attack power, melee crit, and spell crit a rogue in full PVP gear (with everything gemmed and enchanted) would have at level 80?
My concern with your post, however, is that you're implying that you are forced to use the Sinister Strike glyph if you use Sinister Strike as your main attack. I think this is the wrong way to look at it -- the Sinister Strike glyph is quite good. Since Sinister Strike is generating all of your combo points in a combat build, the glyph increases your total combo point generation by 50%, which is no small amount. Even if Shiv does appear to have some value, I think the glyph is what keeps SS ahead. So "freeing up a glyph spot" is actually a bad thing since there for the most part aren't better things to replace it with.
Also I think you're underestimating the value of being able to Shiv your target to apply a snare. Shiv is definitely not worth it with anything other than instant poison on the offhand.
If you were going to continue to use SHIV, why would you use Instant instead of Deadly? Ignoring the "Burst" aspect.
(161+0.10*AP) Nature damage 20% poison chance
(204+0.08*AP) Nature damage over 12 sec (Stackable to 5) 30% poison chance
The poison chance is moot with SHIV, so only Resist's are relevant.
Unless you plan to use your Gouge for more then an interrupt, Deadly seems the shoe in for OH use. Instant for MH punch. In a marginally longer fight, I very rarely need to refresh it as the proc rate while in SnD seems to pretty much keep the 5 stack refreshed, and keep those pesky Subt Rogues from escaping in to stealth.
I should mention I run 2 weapon sets with a macro'd swapper. One has DP on the OH, the other generally has Wound on the OH. I switch depending on target, as Wound seems to be performing much better since the changes. Pallies seem to especially hate it as it nerfs their proc heals, so they have to stop and cast to get it off constantly. They don't seem to appreciate that any more then Druids. :-)
What your finisher is makes a diff as well. I believe Mut. benefits more from IP overall.
I will say in a pinch, it's tends to be the fastest CP generator in my bag that doesn't require burning a CD.
Interested to hear what others are seeing after some time with the new poisons. Overall I like them, though Wounding not being a stack anymore is taking some getting used to. It's easier for them to get off now, so reapplications are key.
Instant is better because you always gain the poison damage. If you use Deadly, when it reaches it's 5 stack maximum you're losing damage each time you Shiv. Keeping DP up on your MH shouldn't be that big of a problem with SnD running.
Also Drumbum, the SS glyph doesn't increase CP generation by 50% since it only applies to SS crits. Unless I'm missing something mathematically.
Instant is better because you always gain the poison damage. If you use Deadly, when it reaches it's 5 stack maximum you're losing damage each time you Shiv. Keeping DP up on your MH shouldn't be that big of a problem with SnD running.
Also Drumbum, the SS glyph doesn't increase CP generation by 50% since it only applies to SS crits. Unless I'm missing something mathematically.
I would presume you wouldn't continue to SHIV after the stack. The damage of the actual blow is to small to continue using it. It would be like cutting down a tree with a pocket saw. Subsequent poisons only refresh the stack.
The issue with MH DP is the amount of time it takes to get to the 5 stack. I'd always rather have IP there unless I needed a tailored poison (Cripple or Mind Numb). While not unreasonable, you now have to deal with a 30% poison chance, as opposed to the "assured" poison of a SHIV. Also, keep in mind for Combat spec, [Savage Combat] adds damage for poisoned targets. If something doesn't stick, you don't get the bonus on a failed or resisted poison attempt.
That's my thinking on it anyway.
It does increase CP gen, just rarely, it's usefullness is dependent on your chance to crit with your MH. Of all the crappy Majors, it's about as good as any, crappy as it is.
Had Garrote and Rupture, neither was impressive in it's performance. If you garrote a lot, maybe, Rupture just seemed pointless. Even in PvE it was marginal.
I would presume you wouldn't continue to SHIV after the stack. The damage of the actual blow is to small to continue using it. It would be like cutting down a tree with a pocket saw. Subsequent poisons only refresh the stack.
I think you missed the point of the Shiv discussion. Shiv would be replacing Sinister Strike. Vile Poisons + scaling poisons + Shiv Glyph + Combat Potency is what sparked the concept. You'd be spamming Shiv like you would SS which would give similar DPE, except you'd have a lot more points to throw around by not having to spec into SS booster talents.
Of course most of that has been removed or nerfed, but see Drumbum's post.
My concern with your post, however, is that you're implying that you are forced to use the Sinister Strike glyph if you use Sinister Strike as your main attack. I think this is the wrong way to look at it -- the Sinister Strike glyph is quite good. Since Sinister Strike is generating all of your combo points in a combat build, the glyph increases your total combo point generation by 50%, which is no small amount. Even if Shiv does appear to have some value, I think the glyph is what keeps SS ahead. So "freeing up a glyph spot" is actually a bad thing since there for the most part aren't better things to replace it with.
You make a good point. The "old" Shiv, glyphed and talented, generated 1 combo point for an average of 27 energy (with 1.5 OH) while the old glyphed SS generated 1.4 combo points for 40 energy. Under these conditions, SS BARELY had an edge in combo point generation (and probably didn't when you considered the likelihood of wasting a point when the glyph procced on the 5th CP). I had this intuitive feel that the glyph of SS was making up for the fact that SS has worse CP generation than Shiv...
But with the glyph changes, the glyph MORE THAN makes up for it. Add "lower CP generation" to my list of shiv spec disadvantages :-) But oh do I love all of that filler...
I honestly don't understand this issue with deadly poison vs instant poison. Since when has having a full stack of deadly poison up been that important in PVP? It's nice damage to be sure, but once the stack is up, the procs more or less stop being useful (except to refresh it). So what's the rush to get it up so fast? I can't think of any PvP situation where I would spam shiv just to stack up a deadly poison, no matter how I specced.
The main PvP advantage I can think of to run deadly poison at all is allowing the use of envenom (the ticks are nice but I wouldn't give up a wound or cripple just for that). Given that the spec takes Vile Poisons, envenom would be extremely useful. Most of envenom's damage is not dependent on the DP stack size, but on your AP (the in-game tooltip, even thottbot's tooltip, do not explain the mechanic properly), so you don't have to shiv up a stack of poison just to use envenom effectively.
Therefore I think that wound, cripple, and deadly are the most useful PvP poisons. A SS combat build has the advantage of being able to pick two of these, while the shiv build is worse off because it can only pick one poison, the OH is already forced into instant.
A dedicated rogue could carry multiple mainhand weapons, stick a different poison on each one, and write a macro to switch them out as needed. You might not be swapping weapons midfight while swinging, but it would be handy to swap to your DP weapon to fight a warrior or feral, for example, and then change back to your crippling when you see a mage. A big issue, though, is that you are not necessarily in a hurry to proc DP (you need some combo points before you use envenom, and will probably spend them on KS first before envenom) whereas situations that require crippling usually require it quickly. You have to proc it on the mage before he blinks away and starts kiting you. Not being able to shiv with a crippling could be harmful, but by carrying multiple main hand weapons, you could actually pull up a fast dagger with crippling just to make it more likely to proc before they get away. As counter-intuitive as it is to main hand a fast weapon, your main attack skill uses the off-hand, so the only part of your damage that suffers is the damage you do during killing spree.
My mistake. I guess it's closer to 10%-15% higher combo point generation. Still "nice" but nothing like I alluded to earlier.
Somehow I overlooked this too :-D
Given the difference in energy cost with a 1.5 speed shiv, you'd need a 28.5% crit rate to achieve the same number of combo points per energy with sinister strike. That's a fairly reasonable number. Fist rogues or very well geared rogues are likely to exceed this number, but regardless the combo point generation of shiv and SS is "close" for non-extreme crit values.
So SS has slightly better damage per energy on low armor targets (worse against high armor target)
SS also has slightly better combo point per energy if you have sufficient crit, at the cost of a major glyph slot.
SS also holds the advantage in that it doesn't depend on instant poison to function, allowing you an extra place to put a valuable PvP debuff.
What does shiv get?
Higher damage on high armor/high avoidance targets.
The extra glyph slot I mentioned above, you probably won't have much useful to put here.
You can take 9 combo points from Imp SS, Aggression, Bladetwisting and put them wherever you like. Bladetwisting may still be worth taking if you don't plan on running cripple on your main.
Overall, I feel shiv is stronger on enemies like warriors, paladins, and ferals. You'll do much better damage, and you won't usually need to cripple since they are melee. This is weak on casters, because you aren't exploiting their weak armor and you may have mobility issues if they get out of range. Combat clearly isn't the best anti-caster spec even if you go the SS route. It seems to me that the tree is built to take on melee enemies, and it seems wise to spec into that role by going with shiv.
This doesn't mean you are completely incapable against casters. Imp Sprint and Killing Spree can help somewhat with mobility issues, and many will not be expecting a ranged interrupt if mutilate or subtlety turn out to be dominant specs. I think shiv is definitely worth trying in PvP at 80. Give it a try and see how you like it :-)
Instant is better because you always gain the poison damage. If you use Deadly, when it reaches it's 5 stack maximum you're losing damage each time you Shiv. Keeping DP up on your MH shouldn't be that big of a problem with SnD running.
Also Drumbum, the SS glyph doesn't increase CP generation by 50% since it only applies to SS crits. Unless I'm missing something mathematically.
In the particular build linked, wound poison would be better than instant, because the build doesn't have Improved poisons.
So you're looking at (at 70):
112+0.04AP@50% wound (56+0.02AP avg.)
161+0.1AP@20% instant (32.2+0.02AP avg.)
Regardless of AP, wound will always be more damage than instant without Improved Poisons. A similar relationship exists at level 80 with wound VII and Instant IX. (With talented poison, wound is still better up to a certain amount of AP, but the amount of AP is very low for the level and easy to reach; something like 770 at level 70, and about 1500 at level 80)
I if I were to do this, I would use Deadly MH, wound OH, and probably write a secondary shiv macro that would swap a different OH in with crip in case I needed to slow someone down...
In the particular build linked, wound poison would be better than instant, because the build doesn't have Improved poisons.
So you're looking at (at 70):
112+0.04AP@50% wound (56+0.02AP avg.)
161+0.1AP@20% instant (32.2+0.02AP avg.)
Regardless of AP, wound will always be more damage than instant without Improved Poisons. A similar relationship exists at level 80 with wound VII and Instant IX. (With talented poison, wound is still better up to a certain amount of AP, but the amount of AP is very low for the level and easy to reach; something like 770 at level 70, and about 1500 at level 80)
I if I were to do this, I would use Deadly MH, wound OH, and probably write a secondary shiv macro that would swap a different OH in with crip in case I needed to slow someone down...
Except that Shiv has a 100% poison proc rate regardless. Wound is better for auto attacks, but instant is better for shiv. Your melee autoswings will deal 24 less damage on average, but your Shivs will deal 49+.06AP more damage on average which more than makes up for it.
Except that Shiv has a 100% poison proc rate regardless. Wound is better for auto attacks, but instant is better for shiv. Your melee autoswings will deal 24 less damage on average, but your Shivs will deal 49+.06AP more damage on average which more than makes up for it.
You're right; I had forgotten that shiv procs would be 100% and make up for the loss of dps on white attacks. But I'd be interested to see if there's a point where a sufficiently fast swing rate might make Wound edge ahead again (at, say, 1600AP, each Instant Poison shiv would be doing 145 more damage; it would need to be about 6 OH autoswings per shiv on average to beat that)
I'd guess we'd do about one shiv every 4 seconds on average, including energy and GCD spent on other moves (kick, gouge, etc) so we'd need an OH swing rate at .67 seconds per swing or faster, which is too fast. If our AP were significantly lower, Wound would eventually overtake Instant, but I think that bar would be so low that any reasonable gear set would exceed it.
So yeah, Instant is better poison for this setup regardless of whether or not you have talented poisons.
You make a good point. The "old" Shiv, glyphed and talented, generated 1 combo point for an average of 27 energy (with 1.5 OH) while the old glyphed SS generated 1.4 combo points for 40 energy. Under these conditions, SS BARELY had an edge in combo point generation (and probably didn't when you considered the likelihood of wasting a point when the glyph procced on the 5th CP). I had this intuitive feel that the glyph of SS was making up for the fact that SS has worse CP generation than Shiv...
But with the glyph changes, the glyph MORE THAN makes up for it. Add "lower CP generation" to my list of shiv spec disadvantages :-) But oh do I love all of that filler...
I honestly don't understand this issue with deadly poison vs instant poison. Since when has having a full stack of deadly poison up been that important in PVP? It's nice damage to be sure, but once the stack is up, the procs more or less stop being useful (except to refresh it). So what's the rush to get it up so fast? I can't think of any PvP situation where I would spam shiv just to stack up a deadly poison, no matter how I specced.
The main PvP advantage I can think of to run deadly poison at all is allowing the use of envenom (the ticks are nice but I wouldn't give up a wound or cripple just for that). Given that the spec takes Vile Poisons, envenom would be extremely useful. Most of envenom's damage is not dependent on the DP stack size, but on your AP (the in-game tooltip, even thottbot's tooltip, do not explain the mechanic properly), so you don't have to shiv up a stack of poison just to use envenom effectively.
Therefore I think that wound, cripple, and deadly are the most useful PvP poisons. A SS combat build has the advantage of being able to pick two of these, while the shiv build is worse off because it can only pick one poison, the OH is already forced into instant.
A dedicated rogue could carry multiple mainhand weapons, stick a different poison on each one, and write a macro to switch them out as needed. You might not be swapping weapons midfight while swinging, but it would be handy to swap to your DP weapon to fight a warrior or feral, for example, and then change back to your crippling when you see a mage. A big issue, though, is that you are not necessarily in a hurry to proc DP (you need some combo points before you use envenom, and will probably spend them on KS first before envenom) whereas situations that require crippling usually require it quickly. You have to proc it on the mage before he blinks away and starts kiting you. Not being able to shiv with a crippling could be harmful, but by carrying multiple main hand weapons, you could actually pull up a fast dagger with crippling just to make it more likely to proc before they get away. As counter-intuitive as it is to main hand a fast weapon, your main attack skill uses the off-hand, so the only part of your damage that suffers is the damage you do during killing spree.
Overall, I look at it as SS gives me one more CP for 50% more energy in a compressed time frame (3 blows, SHIV 27*3=81, 40*3=120 oops, better get a proc) for quite a bit more DPS (Savage Combat (+2%) is affecting both, but it's a percent and SS is the larger number). In a longer fight, that might mean more, in PvP it seems to be not as important since I'm working to dump as much energy in the form of DPS as fast as possible with max "presence" on the targets.
Really, I guess to figure this correctly, and get the total, you need to add in (Prey on the Weak +20%) as well, since if I get an opener, it's going to be up.
I would agree with you overall on the DP, however that's the point of using SHIV for it. I'm using SHIV to get CP and a stack (NOT the most efficient, but FAST), Rupture (or Expose) with the CP, and drop in to as close to a normal DPS rotation as I can (Rotation is Opener, BF, then AR to SHIV or just SHIV depending on energy procs, then 3-4s/4-5r, mix in KS). I'm using that on Melee or Hunters. DP is going straight to HP, and with a Rupture up it's doing a fairly respectable tick. I'm not using Envenom at all unless I'm going for the kill. I'd rather drop an Evis. Seems to work fairly well so far, especially against other Rogues and Warriors.
So why wouldn't I use it in PvP? (serious question
The other advantage is the stack offsetting Cleanses somewhat. I'm not having any issue getting a special on with a MH SS (Wound, Cripple). Generally I'm getting it on the opener, so I'm not looking to SHIV to get it. With Wound not being a Stack anymore, a solid Pally can wipe Cripple and Wound in one cast. Again, NOT a good method against a class you need to lock down as much as possible (Mages, 'locks)
As a CS, I'm not going to Burst anybody down unfortunately, so I'm trying to drive them down as low as possible before dropping a KSp.
I had the SHIV Glyph briefly. I had switched to the SS Glyph before they got rid of it. Just wasn't happy with it's performance
Matched head to head, even with Vile Poisons, I can't see SHIV out performing SS as long as your Energy procs are keeping up (assuming a 2.6 MH & 1.5 OH). I'm going to try modeling this out with my spec and see what I get. I LOVE SHIV so a way to use it more would definitely make me smile. Think I've got a 1.3 around, so I'll test it with the lower energy cost weapon as well and see what I get.
Where did you come up with a 27 energy cost on Shiv? It's going to be 35 with a standard PVP offhand, maybe 34 if there are any good 1.4 speed offhands at level 80.
My bad, thinking of my cost with the Glyph, which of course is gone. You are correct. 35 is the number.
That corrects this to
3 blows, SHIV 35*3=105
3 Blows, SS 40*3=120
So, Following that with some data I picked up pre-patch (I forget what AP we used, just plugging your values in the formula generates the same scale)
With the following weapons: Big bad wolf's paw (2.5 speed 434-567 dmg with atp) and Gladiator's Ripper (1.5 speed 197-260 dmg) & Vile Poison,
SS= 500.5 Avr.dmg + 98 = 598.5 with a cost of 40 energy (imp SS)
Shiv= 228.5 Avr.dmg + 204 Avr.dmg instant poison= 432.5 with a cost of 35 energy
If you break that down at dmg per point of energy
SS= 14.964
Shiv= 12.357
Even with the changes, SS should still outperform SHIV over time.
Does that remain true with a faster OH? Say, 1.3? That brings the energy cost down to ~100 per 3. Is there an AP or Crit curve that makes the reduced energy cost and increased CP generation rate worthwhile? I'm not seeing it otherwise, much as I'd love it to be there.
It's an incredibly useful ability.
Where did you come up with a 27 energy cost on Shiv? It's going to be 35 with a standard PVP offhand, maybe 34 if there are any good 1.4 speed offhands at level 80.
-5 from the glyph, -3 as this is the average amount you get back from Combat Potency.
Unfortunately, neither effect applies to shiv any more (well the first one no longer exists!) so we are stuck with 34 or 35 energy shivs.
-5 from the glyph, -3 as this is the average amount you get back from Combat Potency.
Unfortunately, neither effect applies to shiv any more (well the first one no longer exists!) so we are stuck with 34 or 35 energy shivs.
I've been really pleased with Goblin Engineering(Googles, Cloaks, Trinkets, GRENADES!)/Mining(now gives Toughness +300 hp). The JC figurines have always been tempting though.
There aren't any epic figurines in WOTLK (yet?). The best one for a rogue would be [Figurine - Emerald Boar]. The level 70 epic figurines weren't added until patch 2.4, though, so only time will tell if they decide to add better ones.
To elaborate on my previous post...
Blacksmiths get two sockets, which is worth 60 stam in epic gems, making it absolutely better than mining (which offers 500 hp at 450 skill).
Jewelcrafters get to wear 3 Dragonseyes, of which there is a 41 stam one that matches any socket. This is a net bonus of 11 stam per eye over the epic blue gems, with a slightly larger gain if you replace non-blue gems with these... I figure if you put two of the dragonseyes in non-blue sockets, you'll net enough stam and other stats to make up for not having toughness. This one is harder to call as it varies based on what socket bonuses you choose to socket for, what meta gem you are using, and what gems you replace with dragonseyes. There's also the BoP trinkets you can make, which, while not epic, are as good as epics. If your not planning on using a Battlemaster trinket, then JC is probably the next best thing.
There aren't any epic figurines in WOTLK (yet?). The best one for a rogue would be [Figurine - Emerald Boar]. The level 70 epic figurines weren't added until patch 2.4, though, so only time will tell if they decide to add better ones.
Figurine - Ruby Hare (possibly useful)
Monarch Crab
There's also the personal Enchants (Rings) and Meta gems only JC's get.
Lifeblood from herbalism is pretty solid also. A free heal that you can use that does NOT break stealth is godly. I've found myself breaking a bandage from time to time early, because I see an enemy coming and want to get into stealth, and lifeblood allows me to top that off. Also, it heals more than 500 hp, at level 70, it heals 1200 hp...which is greater than all the other stam bonuses described.
Lifeblood from herbalism is pretty solid also. A free heal that you can use that does NOT break stealth is godly. I've found myself breaking a bandage from time to time early, because I see an enemy coming and want to get into stealth, and lifeblood allows me to top that off. Also, it heals more than 500 hp, at level 70, it heals 1200 hp...which is greater than all the other stam bonuses described.
Yea this is what I am using on my rogue. I'm still leveling so I can't tell really how affective it is in PvP but so far it really helps with training. Especially for a class such as rogues who have no other form of healing.
Figurine - Ruby Hare (possibly useful)
Monarch Crab
There's also the personal Enchants (Rings) and Meta gems only JC's get.
The new figurine trinkets are not worth choosing Jewelcrafting for because they will be quickly replaced with better trinkets. There aren't any epic ones, which is what I was pointing out.
Also, your last statement is just false. Jewelcrafters do NOT get any enchants whatsoever (ring enchants come from the enchanting profession), and there are no Jewelcrafting-only meta gems.
Jewelcrafters can equip up to 3 special gems that are BOP. They aren't bad but they also are not better than the stat bonuses you can get from other professions.
11/06/08, 4:49 PM
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