That's a great idea. It might even mitigate the countless number of rogues I see speccing Subtlety and using Hemo with daggers.

But, on a more serious note, what would you guys recommend for a Sub daggers spec? Arena Junkies has a template which skips Lethality all together and grabs 5/5 DW spec in Combat. I know Lethality isn't very useful when Resilience is figured into the equation, but when your primary combo move is heavily crit-reliant, doesn't Lethality become at least a little bit more important?

If what everyone says about S1 being about burst is true, then isn't a talent which helps add to burst, at least in theory, better than one that provides a steady dps boost over time?

Sub daggers should be 21/0/50. DW Spec is only useful for mutilate offhand damage as far as burst is concerned. Sub Daggers. You can of course customize sub, some people would rather have Initiative or Setup over Camo, Elusiveness, or Imp Ambush.

I'm not getting the choice of Cold Blood over Shadow Dance. What's the point in going daggers if you're not going to abuse Shadow Dance + Ambush spam? Similarly, why would you skip HAT with a spec that crits so often? Even with Premeditation in that spec, your options for openers leading up to a CB Eviscerate aren't going to get you to 5 combo points.

You could Premed + Cheap + BS + CB Evisc, but at that point, there's no reason to take Backstab over Hemo. And if that's the case, you can easily skip Lethality and grab 5/5 DW spec again.

Not trying to be combative, I just seem to be missing a large part of the logic in that spec.

How is Combat doing in pvp right now? I'm wondering specifically for arenas because I remember Killing Spree being a huge burst at 70, sometimes so much so that it would win 1 v 1 fights that I ordinarily couldn't win simply by doing so much damage so fast that the other person didn't even have time to react. Is the burst of Killing Spree at all useful, or does mutilate have even more burst as well as other, more pvp-related things like Deadly Brew?

I haven't had a chance to mess with combat in pvp since I got the weedwhacker from heroic KT but the thought of pvping without prep gives me hives. Killing Spree doesn't do the damage of 2 mutilates and KS loses effectiveness trying to use it with 2 people in range, god forbid a pet. Mutilate can drop 10k+ on cloth in 2 button presses, it's hard to beat that with combat right now.



Edit: oh and having a talent that you lose the benefit from if you're at lower health then your opponent is just stupid in pvp.

Ok, so now that I've decided (somewhat with your help) that a mutilate-variant is superior to combat, I need to figure you what daggers to use. I know the rule of thumb for Mutilate in raids is faster daggers are better, and as such I already have 2x Librarian's Paper Cutter. Does this rule hold up for PVP or is burst so important that slow weapons are better? If so, what daggers should I get for starting arenas?

I used a Titansteel Shanker + Vengeful Gladiator's and then replaced them with 2 Naxx (Normal) Daggers. I was also running H HoS for Fleshripper which I see a lot of rogues on my server use.

I personally think a 1.8 speed MH / 1.5 OH is the best way to go right now. Slow/Slow isn't bad either.

And the thing about Combat is that I find it very easy to survive a burst compared to a mutilate rogue or a properly played Shadow Dance. There's a certain point of damage they can put out on me in a time, and it isn't enough to kill me. Taking 4-5k Mutilates when the energy calls for it, that's scary.

Okay, so slow/slow or slow/medium is the way to go for PVP. Thanks. What easily attainable slow daggers should I try to get? I don't really have access to anything from any raids nor am I willing to shell out for the BOE epics, so I'm essentially limited to badges, reputation gear, and heroic drops.

I'd say the best daggers (for PVP) from those sources would be [The Fleshshaper] and [Rolfsen's Ripper].

If you're anything like me, just try a Naxx raid and get down the first boss of the Spider Wing. I got my dagger drop from there after farming HoS for Fleshripper for... weeks.

With the change to Vile Poisons will you replace it or move the points to Ruthlessness ?

Also if the Preparation Glyph gets changed one more point in Deadened Nerves and two more in Blood Spatter could work to help downing plate wearing classes.

Yeah the Nitro nerf is a bit sad, as Engineering is already rather weak. Question is if the trinket could work out. 2500 Nature Damage plus 1000 Fire Damage on top of the initial burst seems quite strong, especially when trying to burst down paladins.

One general problem I have with killing paladins is when BoF is up and they run with 115% speed away. The autoattacks don't seem to land, maybe due to serverlag. Any suggestions except not attacking the paladin or am I the only one having this problem ?

Actually I'm playing 3v3 with a resto shaman and a BM hunter and both of us dps are engineers and we're trying both the trinket since one of our problems is BoP: due to the high dps our shaman usually uses its GCD to heal rather than purging/playing offensive, so we both try to bypass the immunity by using those trinkets. Sometimes we were able to get a kill and the switch to istant cast is a very good thing, since its casting time (1 sec) is subject to pushback.

About the BoF question I guess it's server lag and latency issue, as I in the last 5 days haven't experimented this problem.

What do you people think about using [Titanium Weapon Chain]?
I'm currently using one on my OH but I'm wondering is it really worth it, especially with the coming change to Berserking. Hit bonus is nice as there isn't that much +hit to go around with in PvP gear and getting 5 seconds off from Dismantle/Disarm duration can be a life saver.

It's not just paladins' run speed that causes problems, but in general any situation where you are chasing someone who either isn't or can't be snared. Unfortunately due to the way this game is designed, you actually sometimes have to be IN FRONT of the player you are trying to hit in order for attacks to land, if the opponent's latency is high enough. (It's a bit odd in that even if you have exceptionally good latency, you will still be plagued by the problem if your opponent has high latency. This was probably designed this way to reduce the workload of the servers, but it is certainly annoying.)

So, basically, the only option you have is to try to not run behind him but instead either on top of him or slightly in front of him (which unfortunately means that if the player makes a sudden change of direction, you are probably going to get boned -- some people are predictable though). True to my guild name, I've nerd raged many times before from situations where I'm standing on top of a player on my screen but my attacks don't go through.

Personally I think Titanium Weapon Chain is mandatory right now because (1) arena matches are so short that the difference of 5 seconds is pretty significant, and (2) rogues with Glyph of Preparation can disarm you twice back to back.

I might reconsider once arena matches become longer and people don't get killed so easily, and/or if Dismantle is removed from Glyph of Preparation. The decision to drop the weapon chain is also a little easier as enchanting mats drop in price.

Slight derail, but has anyone else noticed how CloS does not remove Mark of Blood? This happened quite a few times to me in 2v2s and BGs now when fighting DKs with that talent. I'd notice my attacks healing from the floating text and use CloS to remove that debuff, but it only removes all the random diseases but not Mark of Blood. This is especially annoying in 2v2, healing for 400+ with every hit (from my experience it was not affected by wound poison) with two daggers makes it close to impossible to kill anything.

I'm not sure being able to use MoB on a rogue was such a bad thing. Although with the nerf to its duration, dispellability as well as charges being added I think the ability is pretty terrible now in general.

Vile Poisons and dispel protection

Would it be possible to protect wound poison, mind-numbing poison and crippling poison by building up a stack of deadly poison ? I plan to switch the offhand poisons to one weapon with mind-numbing and one weapon with deadly poison. If this would work Envenom could also be viable against plate wearing classes.

DP isn't really going to protect much, as the dispeller has a 67% chance to dispel one of the 2 other poisons. The dispel protection comes from the fact that you have a 50% chance to apply two poisons with every hit, so unless you get peeled your poions will be very save. But if you get peeled they can be dispelled very quickly, but a stack of DP is not going to help much. If you used another third pison instead of DP they'd have the same 33% chance to dispel that poison instead of the other two you are trying to protect. It only helpss if they actually hit the deadly poison. But then without the talent you could do the same, as the protection comes from having more then one stack of it.

New PvP related changes about rogues:

* Cheap Shot: This ability no longer has diminishing returns against anything other than itself.
* Kidney Shot: This ability now has diminishing returns against all other stuns.

Taken from mmo-champion.com

So CS --> 5pt Kidney = less than 6 seconds now? That's a bit annoying.

No, it will still be 4+6 seconds. The only thing changing is when you are pairing up with another stunner.

For example with a Frostmage, if he Deep Freezes after the kidneyshot it would be on half duration, same with Paladin stun.