They basically switched the DR of KS and CS if that makes it easier to understand.

Anyone else spec back into a variant of the good old Shadowstep Hemo? I've been playing around with this 5/15/51 build with my [Silent Crusader] and [Hailstorm], and it's like hooking up with a hot ex-girlfriend you never stopped loving. (I just need to find a good partner on the new server now...) With people finally starting to throw on more Resilience, I began feeling that Mutilate just wasn't punching through defenses as effectively, and the relative lack of mobility and survivability really irked me... this build solves those issues, in my opinion. Less burst damage, but it seems to hit harder, more consistently, and I dig that. Thoughts?

51 points in sub but you won't take Shadowdance?

It's a hotkey nightmare and I really can't see what it offers that I need... I'm not using Ambush and if all my energy is being spent on multiple Cheap Shots, what the hell am I doing to kill my target? Nah, I think Shadowstep with 30e Hemos is perfectly fine for me.

I would say take SD, because it's not just about cheapshots, it's about garrote.CS chained into garrote is most devastating, especially when you're FFing a healer.

On that note, I specced 27/0/44 to pick up QR/FF. Damage is out of control as it is, so I shifted more towards survivability. All this while stacking resilience (no dps gems save for the meta) makes Cheat Death much more better, and I can save that I've won many games due to Cheat Death.

Mutilate will always be superior, but I just HATE mut.

Just out of curiosity... no Improved Eviscerate? If you said you're feeling the effects of increased resilience stacking, wouldn't that go a bit further than Malice? I guess it depends on what your opening combo generally is. Can you expand on your playstyle a bit more?

That said, I do like the possibility of taking CQC, using fist weapons, and having the option to grab Blade Flurry:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Anyone else feeling that Heightened Senses is not working at all? It seems to give no advantage at all over mutilate rogues in the sap wars. It's still a complete gamble on who detects the other first. My ping is quite low (less then 100ms) as well so I don't really know if the talent is worth it at all anymore. I will possibly have to do some testing with other rogues, but maybe just every other rogue has a stealth enchant on their cloak.

And about adanis spec, I would prolly go for this spec Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (Dagger Sub)
HaT is possibly the best talent in the entire sub tree even in small brackets. From my experience it seems to work exactlly like seal fate when alone tho this might be conicidence that always someone crits when i do (the 2nd combo point seems to come with a slight delay). SD is a keybind nightmare but once you get used to having your finishers on awkard keybinds (so you can use them from stealth or unstealthed the same way) it's really nice, especially in rogue vs rogue. Getting a cheapshot on a rogue in evasion has turned quite a few battles in my favor. Tho you will need to get used again to weapon swapping for poisons.

PvP Mutilate specs will typically have 2/2 Heightened Senses as well.

Note: Chack, you want to go dagger/Sub without opportunity which is 20% dmg on both backstab and ambush?

I was wondering, is there any pvp viable specc out there thats not 41/5/25 or a shadowdance specc? I can't figure anything out that mutilate doesn't outshine, even with the lack of mobility. The talentplacement is pretty odd for most other speccs, and because of hightened senses/prep it's almost a must to have 22 talents in sub - at which point you might aswell pick up the other and dirty deeds to go with both of them. If you want to use backstab, theres a grand total of 25% increased damage if you go 27points into combat and 5% crit via CQC - which you can't get any decent build out of anyway.

I personally use the engineering goggles and find other rogues about 90% the time before they can find me. Possibly this is how these other rogues are getting the jump on you. Remeber to that human rogues have a passive perception. Also there are some rogues who choose to build 42/5/24 and only place 1 point in Heightened Senses leaving themselves susceptable to an opener. For me I find it imperative to have 2/2 Heightened Senses and the goggles are just an added bonus. If you have 1/2 or 0/2 be prepared to get opened on everytime.

Hi,

I've been messing around with my 75 ATM PvP sub spec gnome rogue. I do alot of PvP and have been fairly successful. In the past I've spec combat sword, I've done pretty well but haven't been on top as I'd like to be. Recently I speced mut./combat spec and had decent success as well. Last night I speced Subt/mut and played terrible--probably the worst I've every played before.

I've read a lot of rogue blogs claiming that ATM subtely deliver's the most dps for pvp. From last night's performance I'm having my doubts, however am wandering if its a gear issue. I'm geared well, but am not sure if I'm geared for sub. pvp spec.

I could use advice on the following:

1. Opinions on sub--pvp spec in general
2. What gear/requirements are needed for successful subt. spec. eg hit rating, armour pen, haste etc...
3. For those pvp masters--what are specing ATM for arena/bg raids?

Thanks for you help.

If you could expand on this detail a bit, we might be able to give you a little more help. Mutilate/Prep is a ridiculously easy spec to play in the grand scheme of things.

How were you specced? What problems were you having?

I'm still leveling as well, but I'm using the 41/5/25 template to level. I've found that the key is to abuse the snot out of the combination of Overkill and Dirty Deeds. Between those two talents, you can Cheap Shot -> Mutilate -> (CB+Trinket) Eviscerate -> Mutilate -> [Finisher depending on situation] before Cheap Shot ever wears off. Even characters 3+ levels above me don't usually survive that kind of punishment unless they're geared in plate.

It's for that reason that you'll see people recommending that you trinket the initial Cheap Shot (not Kidney Shot like in BC) because a skilled rogue can polish you off with one stun.

Anyone know what happens when you run a build like this Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft and you crit, activating Seal Fate? Can you actually get 3 combo points for a Hemo? What if you use the Sinister Strike Glyph and crit? Think you can get 4? Using SS in this case would be pointless I think, as you cannot get Imp SS while you overextend in Assassination and Sub to get 2/5 Seal Fate and HAT.

I'm really looking forward to higher resilience totals so we can all move away from Mutilate, I really miss Shadowstep

Also, for you Engineers, the change to the Gnomish Lightning Generator is very nice for pvp/arena. I've caught a lot of players offguard by building up 5cp, starting to cast the trinket, then spamming Cold Blood Eviscerate after it has hit.. I've thought about using the rocket gloves too, but I prefer the Haste Rocket enchant.

Hey guys, needing advice in what I need to know on how to take DKs down.

Being the new class and all, not much experience fighting them so any advice I can get would be helpful.

-MH (Crippling Poison)/ OH (Wound Poison)
-Don't forget Dismantle
-(None Anti-DK question) What should I be partnering w/ this season?

It's a bit annoying that the Lightning Generator still has a casttime, although one can move while it is casting. But I prefer to take it over the battlemaster trinket. I'm still uncertain about the glove enchant but prefer the rocket at the moment to down players from distance / hand of protection / evasion.

I actually enjoy Mutilate a lot but you are right about Shadowstep. Maybe switching Preparation and Shadowstep could fix some rogue issues. Cooldown spam on lower ratings would be diminished and Mutilate and combat could get all the mobility they need. I think 41-5-25 will get problems earlier or later.

I'am still figuring out which filler talents I want and took
2/2 Blood Splatter
2/2 Quick Recovery
3/3 Vile Poisons
2/3 Camouflage
1/3 Serrated Blades
3/3 Setup

Any reason why you still took Vile Psns?

I dont consider Quick Recovery filler if you run with a healer and Camouflage ever. I like blood splatter and 3/3 Serrated blades because with the 7.5 two set bonus rupture damage is amazing.

a bit off topic, but can anyone else not buy Deadly Gladiator's Mutilator? It says it's 1830 on every site, and in my WoW, and while I have the rating and points, I still can't get it. Anyone? Or is it 1930?

Thanks for the list LodeRunner. Anesthetic poison is great but I have already some real troubles managing all the weapon switch macros and enchants I need. So I sincerly hope that the incoming PVP nerfs won't hit that talent. I already use four weapons to apply all the poisons I want and the amount of macros I would need to manage poisons without Deadly Brew frightens me.

@Chaggi:
I was playing around a build that works well against high armored targets and tried Deadly Poison, which stacks up way to slow, as well as just increased wound poison damage combined with the Gnomish Lightning Generator and the Pyro Launcher. The Lightning Generator works well if no one suspects it but the cast can easily be interrupted and you need to face the enemy during the whole cast, which makes it bad against rogues that try to move in your back but does wonders when trying to down holy paladins.

Just as I was reading this, we met this Ret Paladin / Resto Shaman combo which actually did interesting burst combo using that, which caught us by surprise. It was more effective than I thought, and got us at least once.

Was wondering if you had an opinion on 2 things...

1) Less points in Seal Fate. I heard from one of my friends that we could go as far as having 3/5 in Seal Fate and be totally fine in terms of CP generation. Heard anything like that?

2) What do you think of stacking resilience? If you're playing a Healer/DPS team, the battles are getting longer and I'm still finding myself getting gibbed pretty easily against other Rogues. It might help to put less pressure on my healer and what not. Then again, I'm only rocking a hot 370 Resilience.

Hey sorry, was away from the forums for a bit... I never took Improved Eviscerate because I figured the 5% more critical chance on everything outweighed the 20% more damage on one finisher, even if it is one that is used often going for the kill.

Basically, I open with a premeditated Cheap Shot for 5CP. If my target is a rogue, I immediately pop a Rupture on him before spamming Hemo to build for the Kidney Shot to come. Dismantle when necessary. Blind other targets to keep them off you... you know the drill. If it's not a rogue, I just wait. I let my energy queue after the Cheap Shot so that I can hit a full Kidney Shot with an entire energy bar to dump into Hemo after Hemo. I've learned to pace myself playing this build instead of going all out at the start and running out of steam when I push for the kill. It's tempting to spam Hemo while you get the 10% increased damage from Master of Subtlety, but the 20% more you can do via Dirty Deeds when they are below 35% health is more important, so you know, I try not to blow my load prematurely. = P

Funny enough, I went back to Mutilate simply because my current team composition favors the quicker damage. I still think many rogues will turn back to Shadowstep Hemo once Resilience really becomes prominent, but a lot of people still favor raid gear over Resilience, at least where we are on the ladder. Much as I wanted to believe it was affecting Mutilate -- and it is -- it has not quite reached the point where Shadowstep is the better build in arena.

But it's still a lot more fun to play in BGs. For whatever that's worth...

Does expertise currently have any value in the PvP environment?
I asked myself this when I was faced with choosing between [Deadly Gladiator's Belt of Triumph] and [Jorach's Crocolisk Skin Belt]. I went with the Deadly since I thought more stamina and resilience should be better than expertise, but is it? I'm not asking for item advice I already made that decision, I'm just wondering about the weight expertise has in PvP.