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Old 01/22/08, 10:28 AM   #736
Herrera
Piston Honda
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Lightning's Blade (EU)
Just a quick question: stacking Lifeblooms or single? Do you apply more stacks and when? I prefer single one, and I resort to Regrowth/Swiftmend/Cyclone if big burst is incoming. Just need opinion from the others.

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Old 01/22/08, 12:11 PM   #737
Lord BEEF
Soda Popinski
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Herrera View Post
Just a quick question: stacking Lifeblooms or single? Do you apply more stacks and when? I prefer single one, and I resort to Regrowth/Swiftmend/Cyclone if big burst is incoming. Just need opinion from the others.
There's a time for each.

One thing to remember is that for efficiency, doing a two stack is less efficient than letting a single one bloom. Rolling a three stack is the most efficient.

If you can get in a situation where you can keep a three stack going on someone that the enemy team is continuing to target it's a good idea to keep it going. Otherwise you're better off doing a lifebloom and then a rejuv if needed, keeping the option to swiftmend open.

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Old 01/22/08, 2:38 PM   #738
Aphyrax
Great Tiger
 
Tauren Druid
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by Cronjob View Post
Your 3v3 is very interesting, I also accepted an invite to a 3v3 just for fun to get more practice really, we run a Feral druid, MS warrior and me (resto Druid). The problem I have is when we face a pally and they slow me (judgement) and freedom the DPS rogue or MS warrior which makes it almost impossible to kite since I cant snare the DPS on me. How do you guys handle this?
The warrior needs to peel for you. When you are judged and have melee on you, have the warrior intercept them. If the stun is not enough for you to get away, have them spam hamstring on the target until they either get a mace proc or an improved hamstring proc (imp hamstring is an absolute must). Yes it is cheesy, but it works. If they have BoF on them, bear up until it is gone.

There is this misconception that druids can just run away from anything. That is not true. Unsupported we will eventually die due to some bad luck. It is inevitable. We might get away cleanly 9 times, but the 10th that mace stun just when we shifted to travel form kills us. So have your partners support. A druid in caster or travel form is extremely vulnerable, so rolling the dice that you never get a proc when in those forms is a losing proposition.

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Old 01/22/08, 5:23 PM   #739
seminarca
Don Flamenco
 
Retired
Tauren Druid
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Cronjob View Post
I dueled several warriors outside of Org to practice my kiting and the matches lasted much much longer after my 4pc set.
This is gold. If you can find willing opponents, it's a great way of perfecting one's technique and fluidity. 1v1, I can run SPriests oom (including Shadow Friend) whilst still preserving most of mine. Warlocks are impossible, they keep doing the Life Tap / Drain Life thing to stay topped on both hp and mana, but the typical SL/SL doesn't stand much of a chance of killing me either. Vs a 2/5 VG 3/5 MG with a VG Greatsword and full Vindicator and other PvP stuff [edit: Warrior], I could last ~16 minutes or so until he finally ran me oom. It's hard to convince people to waste time chasing after you, but if you can, it's great practice.

Last edited by seminarca : 01/22/08 at 5:51 PM.

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Old 01/22/08, 5:49 PM   #740
doogless
Don Flamenco
 
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Draenei Shaman
 
Kil'Jaeden
Moonfiring people in the middle of Field of Strife in AV is a pretty good way to practice kiting, it really seems to bother Horde who run by when I do it. I used to pick out Mages who would ride by and lure them into fighting me, eventually run them OOM while practicing shifting out of novas/etc, and finally kill them with the Moonfire DoT.

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Old 01/22/08, 10:14 PM   #741
Kaber
King Hippo
 
Tauren Druid
 
Stormreaver
Take this analysis of Dream state vs. Resto with a grain of salt, as last season I only made it to around 1950 (having started playing my druid in arenas only 3 months prior to the end of the season 2). I do not claim to be a gladiator or particularly skilled, but here are my observations thus far as (what I would consider) an average player. Deep or other Gladiators have articles on it already, but I think they only really explore the spec from the point of view of their own 2v2 team setups.

After giving the Dreamstate spec more than a full week of arenas (both 2v2 and 3v3) as well as a very large amount of Battle Ground play, I have to say that it is an absolutely amazing spec for Battle Grounds, and has points of interest working for it with certain class combinations in Arena. It gives you a high armor form to pop into during a focus fire to take a beating, and pre-emptively drop into in order to CC or live through a Rogue's initial strike (CCing from Moonkin just feels powerful since you normally have to expose yourself in a very susceptible caster form). The damage you dish is, of course, a negligible increase compared to a standard resto build, but the main thing I found is that Insect Swarm is really quite powerful. If I did not have to raid and could afford a respec weekly, no matter what build I chose (Resto or Dream State) I would take one that included Insect Swarm. I think the biggest thing I found with this spec is in situations where I would normally stun/Nature's Grasp and run away, I could instead drop into Moonkin and kill people I would not normally have had a chance against. The huge defensive increase coupled with the meager damage increase given by Moonkin form is just enough to really make life difficult for Rogues and Warriors (speaking from the perspective of a 1vs1 fight, which I seem to get fairly often in Battle Grounds), and I would have to say I won more of those fights than I lost, though whether it was gear, skill, or luck I would not be able to say. As for healing, I only lost about 10-15 per tick on Lifebloom and 20-30 per tick on Rejuvination while my actual healing listed (thanks to Lunar Guidance) went up by 150. In total I would estimate I only lost between 5-10% of my total healing on HoTs, but I made up for some of that when I was able to drop my Spell Hit gems and enchants for more healing gems. It was also nice to be able to hide behind a Pillar and drop both Moonfire and Insect swarm on a pet. The combination gets most pets to nearly half life, and if you hit it with another set then call your teammate in you can usually burn the pet down fairly quickly with some good CC on the opposing healer.

The build certainly has pitfalls, which is why I am going to return to my standard 8/11/42 spec fairly soon. First is that while my MP5 went up by 50, I seemed to burn through mana much faster. It was both that I was using more of it for offensive abilities (Moonfire + Insect Swarm were my bread and butter whether I was healing or nuking), and Lifebloom is our bread and butter healing spell, but does not receive any reduced cost from Moonglow. I found found what I call "On Demand Burst Healing" to be lacking in every way with Dreamstate. I lost crits on Regrowth and more importantly Swiftmend. Where I could have once dropped anywhere from 8-15k healing in seconds by burning a few cooldowns and getting some crits, those numbers were cut in half and my only option was Nature's Swiftness on a 3 minute timer. This led me to use a lot more mana on healing than I normally do, so I had to watch myself or I would blow through mana far too fast. Which brings me to my last point: Feral Charge. I found myself in numerous situations as Warrior/Druid and War/Sham/Druid where a single Feral Charge could have changed the flow of the entire battle or saved me from a focus fire while my Warrior was CC'd.

It was especially telling when I was unable to keep the shaman in my 3's this week up through focus fire with a full stack of hots, Nature's Swiftness, and the following it up by spamming Regrowth while trying to cyclone an enemy DPSer to slow the incoming damage. I am quite aware that an Enhance shaman has low survivability, but Warrior/Sham/Druid has had success above 2k with a team on my server, as have a few other teams featuring shaman, so there are certainly ways to keep them alive, but Dreamstate is not one of them. In 2's against some double DPS teams I seemed to fair much better, while against others I faired worse. SP/Lock absolutely decimated us because I lacked powerful healing and Triple stacking lifebloom plus rejuvination did not out heal all the incoming damage from their DoTs so I wound up dieing slowly with my warrior not far behind. Against Rogue teams I wished I had feral charge at times to escape (though charging a Mage can be a losing proposition unless you catch him in the middle of a Frost bolt to keep them from chain snaring). Other times Moonkin form and Barkskin saved me from getting burned just long enough to kill an opposing Rogue before I died and allowed my partner to kill his teammate afterwards. Sometimes I was also able to contribute just enough DPS right before a healer got his heal off or broke from CC to BoP or insta-heal his teammate, so having just a little bit of damage to add to my warrior's executes really came in handy for a few of our wins.

As this is a much more offensive spec, I would expect this build to perform much better in an offensive team where you focus not quite so much on outlasting as you do on burning someone at the perfect time - such as Rogue/Druid or Feral/Druid (take your pick of burst classes to pair it with). This also requires a fairly sturdy teammate that is not easily burst down (Rogue with CloS/Evasion/Vanish/Prep for example). The increased MP5 with Dreamstate for typical "outlast" teams is far outweighed by the severe lack of Burst Healing and escape ability. This is not something I would attempt with a Hunter or Warlock partner in 2's for example, and with a Warrior I found both good and bad points against a number of teams, so I would need more experience to say for certain but it felt like there was a slight lean towards not using Dreamstate in this combo. In general for War/Druid I think I can sum it up as such: Dream state is fantastic against teams that are heavy on physical DPS, and poor against caster teams. Beyond 2's I really think this build becomes more and more dimished, as the lack of healing output just cannot sustain a player through the kind of burst you encounter in 3's and 5's.

Dreamstate was quite possibly one of the most fun builds I have ever used in Battle Ground play, but unless you only participate in 2's (and only pair with bursty classes), I would honestly have to say that it is not the new "Felguard for Druids." This is the conclusion that a few people alluded to simply by looking at the spec and analyzing it a page or so ago, but it never hurts to give a unique spec a shot.

Last edited by Kaber : 01/22/08 at 10:54 PM.

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Old 01/23/08, 6:18 AM   #742
Led ++
Piston Honda
 
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Undead Death Knight
 
Draenor (EU)
For the ones intrested in making a 3vs3 with a Ret Pally and MS War .. DO IT!

Me and my IRL friend (ret pally) made a new team yesterday. At first we stood 9-0 then we lost twice to a Holy Pally/MS War/Feral Druid team but eventually we kept on going and we ended at 1730 or something so not bad for our first try tbh.

I recomend it to anyone because the burst is sick (our warrior is sword specced) and with some good focus on who you are going to kill first you can get very far.

Anyone else playing this combo and wants to share som info?

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Old 01/23/08, 9:27 AM   #743
Cronjob
Piston Honda
 
Orc Shaman
 
Twisting Nether
Originally Posted by seminarca View Post
This is gold. If you can find willing opponents, it's a great way of perfecting one's technique and fluidity. 1v1, I can run SPriests oom (including Shadow Friend) whilst still preserving most of mine. Warlocks are impossible, they keep doing the Life Tap / Drain Life thing to stay topped on both hp and mana, but the typical SL/SL doesn't stand much of a chance of killing me either. Vs a 2/5 VG 3/5 MG with a VG Greatsword and full Vindicator and other PvP stuff [edit: Warrior], I could last ~16 minutes or so until he finally ran me oom. It's hard to convince people to waste time chasing after you, but if you can, it's great practice.
Usually they are only willing once or twice but I'll take what I can. They'll only go once especially if I do an extremely good job kiting them, I usually get comments like so annoying, I hate noobs like you etc etc. But it helps me perfect and learn how to kite better. Also practiced against some rogues yesterday and learned a few things about shadowstep.

Originally Posted by doogless View Post
Moonfiring people in the middle of Field of Strife in AV is a pretty good way to practice kiting, it really seems to bother Horde who run by when I do it. I used to pick out Mages who would ride by and lure them into fighting me, eventually run them OOM while practicing shifting out of novas/etc, and finally kill them with the Moonfire DoT.
I added a warrior to my 2v2 team (normally me and an SL/SL Lock) to see how we would do together. We ran up against a Mage/Marks Hunter team 3 times. The first time we went after the mage first, which I think was a mistake, she blinked around and the hunter and mage pet killed my warrior. The second time around we went after the Hunter first, I rooted him in place while the warrior beat on him and I tried CC'ing the mage but the huunter scatter shot me and the mage CC'd me just enough that my warrior died. 3rd time we got it down, the hunter died but my warrior also died which left the mage and me to 1 v 1. We went for about 25 mins until finally I was able to kill him. I had to run away when his pet came and heal myself a lot but once it despawned I could jump back in but he would drink then I would drink, we'd both drink I intervated a few times. Epic match.

Is going after the hunter the right thing to do?


Originally Posted by Kaber View Post
Take this analysis of Dream state vs. Resto with a grain of salt, as last season I only made it to around 1950 (having started playing my druid in arenas only 3 months prior to the end of the season 2). I do not claim to be a gladiator or particularly skilled, but here are my observations thus far as (what I would consider) an average player. Deep or other Gladiators have articles on it already, but I think they only really explore the spec from the point of view of their own 2v2 team setups.
.
I think you hit on most of what I found lacking in the build. I thought maybe it was my gear but you seem to have good gear. Maybe its the playstyle I have become used to with 8/11/42 that keeps me from making the DS build successful for me. I use Feral Charge not only as an interrupt but as a escape tactic and also as a stay in your face tactic when I need to like I do for mages some times. If only Moonkins could blink!

Last edited by Cronjob : 01/23/08 at 10:08 AM.

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Old 01/23/08, 10:20 AM   #744
Duncan
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Das Syndikat (EU)
The main reason for switching back from dreamstate to 13/11/37 for me were DPS heavy teams (double DPS in 2s and 3 DPS in 3s). Moonkin is very nice if you face mirror setups and/or DD + Healer, due to being able to add some pressure with HoTs, 400% armor increase while you CC and of course a very high mp/5 for outlasting the other teams mana.

But the lack of feral charge pretty much messes it up in a lot of matches since it is more important to me for surviving than even swiftmend is. If you go for 13 balance you can still have Insect Swarm and Nature's Reach (wich is really great for CC). That way you maintain some of the "goodies" from a dreamstate build without losing to much healing power and still having feral charge.


However, for BGs and 1on1 it is definatly the most fun spec i can think of!

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Old 01/23/08, 12:11 PM   #745
• moz
Get off my lawn.
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Led ++ View Post
For the ones intrested in making a 3vs3 with a Ret Pally and MS War .. DO IT!

Me and my IRL friend (ret pally) made a new team yesterday. At first we stood 9-0 then we lost twice to a Holy Pally/MS War/Feral Druid team but eventually we kept on going and we ended at 1730 or something so not bad for our first try tbh.

I recomend it to anyone because the burst is sick (our warrior is sword specced) and with some good focus on who you are going to kill first you can get very far.

Anyone else playing this combo and wants to share som info?
I believe this combo had the #1 spot (~2300 rating with like a 90+ win%?) on Stormstrike at some point (maybe still does, I haven't checked in a while).

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Old 01/23/08, 1:00 PM   #746
Kaber
King Hippo
 
Tauren Druid
 
Stormreaver
Originally Posted by Cronjob View Post
I think you hit on most of what I found lacking in the build. I thought maybe it was my gear but you seem to have good gear. Maybe its the playstyle I have become used to with 8/11/42 that keeps me from making the DS build successful for me. I use Feral Charge not only as an interrupt but as a escape tactic and also as a stay in your face tactic when I need to like I do for mages some times. If only Moonkins could blink!
I definitely do not think it is so much the playstyle change as it is the innate weaknesses the build has against certain classes and combinations. As I am a little kamikaze at heart when I play (something I have to actively keep in check most of the time), I think the Dreamstate spec really worked well for me. The problem is that in Arenas it just does not work for my team compositions, and the ones it would work well for are probably better off pairing with something other than a Dreamstate druid (Rogue/Mage or Rogue/Priest rather than Rogue/Druid for example). Losing Feral Charge and Swiftmend was just too crippling. It does seem to be better against other druid/X teams, so once you hit a certain rating in 2's this might actually be a better build.

Last edited by Kaber : 01/23/08 at 2:03 PM.

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Old 01/23/08, 1:55 PM   #747
Pandadrood
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Bonechewer
Played 34/0/27 last week in my 2s with a warlock. It has some really nice advantages with a warlock because of the durability of SL/SL warlocks. We demolished any druid/x teams because my mp5 and pressure on the druid not to drink just locked them down. Lost to one 2 dps team but considering we played almost 20 games and only one of them was a 2dps it wasn't that big of a deal. I found my heals were doing about the same as 8/11/42. The ability to solo a pet was amazing, I could take a pet from 50-60% to nothing in about 5-10 seconds if I got it out of LoS from the healer. In one game I think I killed a hunter's pet about 3 times.

That being said I think this only works with a few classes in 2s and absolutely does not work in 3s. 2 dps on 1 target in 3s means you need a lot more burst healing(Swiftmend) as well as high possibility of Rogues and warriors jumping you and you NEED some sort of escape like Feral Charge.

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Old 01/23/08, 3:06 PM   #748
Hop
Glass Joe
 
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Orc Warrior
 
Arthas
With the new feature of proximo showing talent builds, do you guys think that the balance-heavy hybrid build will last long? One of the posts in the last few pages mentioned that they think one of the advantages is that the other team doesn't expect it. I'd imagine most teams would realize that you have no swiftmend and try to hit the druid hard.

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Old 01/23/08, 3:22 PM   #749
Shadowed
Soda Popinski
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Hop View Post
With the new feature of proximo showing talent builds, do you guys think that the balance-heavy hybrid build will last long? One of the posts in the last few pages mentioned that they think one of the advantages is that the other team doesn't expect it. I'd imagine most teams would realize that you have no swiftmend and try to hit the druid hard.
Thats not really a new feature, Remembrance has been able to auto inspect arena teams the day 2.3.0 was released so I highly doubt anything is going to change that much just because Proximo added it.

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Old 01/23/08, 3:32 PM   #750
Hop
Glass Joe
 
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Orc Warrior
 
Arthas
Sorry, must of missed that at 2.3. The more important point that I was wondering about is will it change what they do about the enemy druid.

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