How many of the 295 other teams have 5/5 Merciless gladiator, the throwing weapon, and the Merciless Gladiator weapons? If not, this change should only effect those who saved up and got the weapon first, which is a bad decision in the first place. If you had 5 somewhat competent players it isn't terribly difficult.

Sorry man, it's not trivial. 1900 rating is an abysmally small percentage of the players. Heck at 1550 in 3v3s I often have fought against players with over 250 resillience. So yeah I call BS on that, unless of course you're talking about people playing with warlocks/spriests in small brackets where they dominate. If its so trivial and just a matter of putting effort in than anyone could do it. Which is obviously false because it just doesn't work that way. I guess I'm sorry I'm just not a god at PVP like you and your friends obviously are.

Again, for all you people spouting off numbers about people above 1900, go look at how many people UNDER 1900 that have 5/5 Merciless Gladiator armor, the ranged weapon slot, and the weapon. Even at 1900 rating for 5v5 it would take 14 weeks to achieve everything, and after 14 weeks the top teams are 2400+ and it is easy to advance to 1900.

Except most players won't be spending those 14 weeks at 1900. They'd probably be like our group is, starting in the high 1400s and week by week going up a bit at a time. Which means considerably longer than 14 weeks, especially for those who didn't have points from S1 or S1 gladiator gear already.

I can see how as the season progresses people's ratings will go up and where originally 1900 was near the top it could drop lower down by the end as top end ratings get inflated. That makes perfect sense. However it goes completely against what the other poster said. Getting to 1900 rating in an environment now where 1700s have full S2 gladiator gear in only blues/honor gear is just not happening unless you are a lock in small team play. (or unless you're just an amazing player on an amazing team) Because at some point your blues + honor gear isn't going to be enough when a guy with Stormherald and 5 piece S2 gear is beating on you.

I disagree. Very much so in fact. Some of us will never have the opportunity to see BT until long after it is on farm if at all. Coming home from work at 8 when your guild raids at 7 will do that to you, for example. Does that mean that I am not supposed to be able to compete with those guys who have the time to both raid and PvP? How does this impact the competitive side of this game? You did not have to grind anything to be competitive at Starcraft.

Currently the situation is good. Yes, there is an upgrade to my Talisman of the Breaker in SSC. But meh, I can do without the few extra stats. If the "advantages" you mention are in the realm of rounding errors, then who cares. If they are real advantages then we have a problem.

Eventually everyone will have learned how to play. So out-skilling a better-geared opponent will simply cease to be an option. The "skill ladder" will be pretty much fixed. At that point, smaller gear differences will be magnified.

Already, in a warrior/healer mirror match if one warrior has a deep thunder and the other a stormherald, my money would always be on the stormherald warrior.

That said, if the rating requirements appease the raiders and enable Blizzard to keep the PvP gear on par with the best PvE gear then I am all for it. For this game to succeed as a competitive game, someone who does not raid must not be at a disadvantage in arenas.


Let me repeat what I said earlier. In Bloodlust, at the END of season 1, the top 4-5% where 1900+ in 5v5. FOUR percent. Bloodlust is a highly competitive BG. We have top PvPers transfer over here all the time. The average WoW PvPer will never reach 1900, at least not in my BG.

Currently, according to wowjitsu (don't hurt me Gurg), over 1% of all guilds that killed a boss in Kara are already in BT. With the nerfs to Kael it will soon be more. Maybe more than 4%. Wouldn't that be funny?

People who say 1900 is easy are the same that say Naxx was easy. The credibility of such statements in light of overwhelming evidence to the countrary is close to zero. And for the record, I think the bar will be below 1900. The 1900 is only a rumor anyway.

Percentile systems are never trivial.

Sure, the bottom 50% have no business even trying to make the Nicholl Screenwriting Contest quarterfinals (Top 5% cut) or getting into Georgetown Law School (another "top" 5% cut; 11,000 applications, ~460 full time students per class), but that doesn't mean that everyone short of the 5% that actually make it suck at their field.

Even if classes and team makeups were of equal strength (they aren't) and ranking was determined entirely on skill due to uniform gear and gaming hardware and connection (it isn't), plenty of people who are very competent at PvP would never make 1900 rating because there simply is not room for them.

I use the screenwriting example because my fantasy noir script just came in at top 6% in this year's Nicholl competition. Could I have been a little "better" in some aspect or "luckier" in which readers read my material (people I faced in Arena, if you want to draw a crude analogy)? Sure, setting aside how "better" and "lucky" have to line up so that "better" actually is "better" and matters.

Is there any appreciable difference between #254 (makes quarterfinals) and #300 (around where I was) out of 5000+ entries? No.

Oh god. Yeah I'm sure having access to BT gear really hurt you. That's not a normal alt warrior at all. Alt warrior for most of us means at best doing Kara for gear. For most people who are raiding they don't have much chance to get their alts that sort of gear. So yeah I gotta laugh at you calling it an alt when you have what, 6 pieces of BT gear on you plus one TK/Eye crafted pattern? That is not an alt and that is not realistic at all. Of course you're doing well in 5v5. Your whole team is people in a BT/MH killing guild with numerous loot from there. Your team is not typical at all and trying to pass yourself off as anything but BT raiders is very disingenious.

Stops them from obtaining CURRENT season weapons. Your still able to get last seasons weapons.

What is the % of the population getting BT weapons right now? I'm willing to bet it's FAR less than people who will be getting S3 weapons even after this change. Thus it's still much easier to get weapons via pvp than pve even after this change.

totally IMO but 90% of people who are on arena teams right now are not serious at all. I can site half a dozen cases just this season and just in my guild where teams who in my personal opinion were really not all that good were able to get 1900-2000 rating within a month of forming up.

If <1% of all PvE's get the super top end weapons within 3 months of their release what is wrong with ~3% of pvpers getting super top end weapons within 3 months of their release? Everyone can still pick them up next season, or after the instance nerfs if they really want them.

This is a forum full of spreadsheet nerds. Using anecdotal evidence to counter statistical evidence is unlikely to work. A #1 ranked player saying "top 5% is easy" is like Tiger Woods saying that golf is easy.

This is not just a problem on smaller BGs. Bloodlust is huge. We have 10 minute queues for 2v2 during primetime because so many people queue. And yet I can name several people who PvP pretty much every day (and are not completely terrible) without having ever been above 1900.

For the average gamer, 1900 is an insurmountable obstacle (absent of cheating). Now, if that is what Blizzard wants, fine. But lets not pretend that it is a minor inconvenience.

EDIT: I just checked your link. If that is what you use as evidence that "undergeared alts" can make it in arenas, then I don't know what to say. That character is better geared than any MAIN in my guild, other than the weapon.

When I started season 2, I was in full greens and blues. ZERO epics until about week 3. Yes, I said it was my new PvE main due to a lack of warriors in our guild, thus it has the gear it has now. The paladin, and 2nd warrior on the team are also alts, a hunter and rogue respectively.

Again, for all the people who still apparently don't get it. 1900 isn't terribly difficult if you have 5/5 S2, ranged slot, and a S1 weapon. Until you have this, not having a S2 weapon isn't an "insurmountable obstacle" because it is gear holding you back, unless you truly are terrible.

I have 9800 hp, 340 resilience, 770 spell damage in my pvp set. I have close to 50k lifetime kills, did the grind to Commander. I use keybindings. I understand the limitations of my toon with 120 days /played. I know how to gear and spec for pve and pvp, and I k now how to play my toon. I am fully willing to admit there are a lot of people who are far, far better than me, but I don't think I suck.

The highest rating I have ever achieved is 1650 on a 3v3, and that was briefly before several of my guildmates logged on and blew the rating all to hell. Right now, the only team I am on is with an alt druid in my guild (who actually is undergeared), and our rating is terrible.

Pretending that attaining a 1900 rating is easy with little to no effort is not only refuted by the experiences of 95% of the player base, but it is offensive to boot.

Again, I do not understand why the availability of these weapons is a problem. It is not going to hurt the elite few at the top of the ratings, and a couple players in every guild with S3 weapons is not going to throw BT/Mt. Hyjal on farm status for Kara guilds.

Never said that. What I was saying was that WITH some effort and dedication most good players can break 1900. You do need a good team. Jesus on a stick isn't going to own in arenas solo. Team building is just as important a skill as spamming MS, or Mana Burn. The same can be said for building/joining a solid guild. If you can't do that then your going to have a much harder time of it.

Again, I intend no offense, but you are vastly out of touch with the reality of the situation. We have the actual ratings distributions and the testimony of people like Cwealm and Aphyrax on one hand, and then we have your assertions about what ratings people "should" have on the other.

There is a problem with your argument. Maybe a single person can by finding the right team and trying real hard break 1900. But that does not change the fact that even on the most active BG only 5% of all teams break 1900. Since the ladder is zero sum, that team trying real hard just bumped someone off their weapon. Now that team is trying harder to get back to 1900. And so on. The end result is that still only 5% of all teams have access to the weapon. The average skill level might have gone up because now everyone tries real hard, but as long as more than 5% want the weapon, some will go home empty handed. Its unavoidable.

This is different from PvE. If everyone who raids tried real hard, the number of people in BT would go up. Raiding is not zero sum. We both can win. The same is not true in PvP.

It's worth noting in passing that the current situation, wherein everyone amasses points based on their rating and spends them on the same items, is not zero sum either: everyone can 'win' to greater or lesser extents. Only when you set a minimum rating does this problem occur.

Stop dwelling on the 1900 rating cut-off point. That was just used as a hypothetical, and I'm sure nothing is set in stone yet. The concept of a minimum rating is just fine, and Blizzard will make sure that you don't have to be in the elite to be able to use the weapon. They just want people to be at least semi-serious about PVP and force people to buy the armor before the weapon.

Personally, I think a 1650-1700 rating would be fine for this; why they said 1900 is beyond me but I'm not losing any sleep over it.

I think anyone that reads this thread in conjunction with the "Game Over" thread will see some of the glaring problems that are present in this game in both PvP and PvE content and it's accessibility to the majority of the population.

If a Kara raider gets a season 2 or season 3 weapon I do not see how that is game breaking in any way. If the hardcore raiders have a problem with the casual raider having a weapon similar one they've gotten after mopping up in SSC, TK, BT etc then they should take solace in the fact that they have experienced some of the more interesting encounters in the game while the casual raider probably never will.

Between horde and alliance there are *five* 5v5 teams at or above 1900 on my server (max is 2026). Would myself and 4 of my pve guildie friends ever be able to make it to this level? They have years of experience, a full set of gladiator gear, and soon will have weapons which we won't be able to get until we break through this magical 1900 barrier.

If they go through with this, they should really set some smaller goals too. Maybe introduce a non-combat pet for those who can reach 1600, kitten maybe. If you reach 1700, your kitten gets lasers.

If you want to look at a fairly "normal" alt, look at my warrior: The Armory

At the end of the first season I had only quest gear, but I had saved all my points (about 4k) so that I could buy a weapon at the start of season 2 and actually compete. My 5v5 team was like 1650-1700, and had 2 alts.

So first day I bought the mace, and suddenly we could compete against more teams. So now I have some honor gear and 2 pieces of S2 gear, and it feels like we can beat more teams, but we still have no chance against any team with lots of arena gear.

Anyway, what I did would be impossible with these changes, because our team would not be high enough ranking to be able to buy a weapon, so I would either have to sink a bunch of points into an inferior S1 weapon or live with a crow-wing reaper indefinitely, basically assuring that we would never be at a point where we could buy arena weapons do to rating limitations.

Is this good or bad? I don't know, but we are probably an abnormal team because 3 of our players have access to BT gear, yet we still won't be getting to 1900 anytime soon most likely. And if we had no real hope of getting weapons, the team might not last, since several of them are just hardcore PvErs who PvP 10-20 games a week for some amusement and gear upgrades they couldn't get otherwise. I bet there are a lot of teams in a similar situation in that they just want to have fun and improve, and also fill in some gear spots when possible. If you take that away, I think you'll just end up reducing the number of people who participate in arenas at all, especially on PvE servers, which is not good for the system as a whole.

I know or keep in touch with say roughly 100 people on my server. I can saw for a fact that very nearly every single one of them who has honestly tried and put in the effort to build a decent team has manage to get 1900+ in at least one bracket. That said that is maybe 30 out of that 100. The rest never took it seriously or cared very much. They were all happy to farm their free epics or run on alt teams and eventually get there stuff. Most people don't respec, or gear up, or create a real matrix or have a solid plan.

Try not to be insulted when I say that in my opinion if you've never broken 1900 in any bracket at any point in any season then you've never really honestly tried to be as good as you possible could be. For whatever reason your holding back. Not being willing to dig and in and build/train develop a solid team, time limits, apathy whatever it may be. I'd much rather get someone who is dedicated and marginally skilled and train/gear them up than try to make some prima donna with super gear and l33t skills shoehorned it to a team that just doesn't work.

Top 5% isn't all that hard when 90% of the people don't really care about succeeding. Maybe with these changes people will start being more serious and 1900 will not be quite as easy as it is right now. Who knows but I'm willing to bet most of those people will be happy to farm there free -1 tier weapons and great armor instead.

Again, I mean no offense, but this is clear selection bias. I know that every single one of my close friends who has tried to learn quantum mechanics and multivariable differential equations was successful, but that does not mean the same would be true of the entire population.

Stop using anecdotes. Start using real data. Stop.

1900 is going to be hard for most people to get. I don't care how easy it is for you or your friends, personally. We have proven this using math. There is no argument to be had anymore. Stop. 1900 is not easy. 1900 is not common. We can move on now.

My projection is that any rating requirement of sufficient size to seriously limit the s3 weapons from entering the general population will seriously damage the number of arena teams that play. Why play at all if you are not advancing towards some sort of goal? The arena teams that are left will all be more dedicated players, but remember that this is an ELO based system that basically compares you against your competition. In other words, the more skilled the average player is, the harder it is to obtain a ranking of X.

So setting a static requirement of 1900 may mean that during s2 5% of the arena teams could buy a weapon, but in s3 when the arena team die-off would occur (and I'm pretty sure no one is going to disagree that it wouldn't happen if this goes through), there will be even less total people able to purchase the weapons. In my mind this change isn't talking about taking arena weapons out of the hands of half the people that currently have them, it's basically taking them out of the system altogether and making them as rare as t6 weapons are.

That may very well be Blizzard's intention, however. I would disagree that it's good for the game.