Hello there,

I am writing for advice on 2v2 arena. My spouse and I love the adrenaline rush and all that; but we seem to have hit a cap. 95% of the time we play frost mages in Ruins of Lordaeron, we lose. We lose about 60-75% of the time in Nagrand & Blade's Edge due to taking advantage of LOS.

We seem to have not nearly the issues against any other class makeup as we do with frost mages. We'll get to 1750/1800 and lose to a bunch of frost mages, putting us back where we started. My armory is incorrect, as i logged out in my dmg set; but normally I am wearing:

t4 helm
t5 shoulders & gloves
bands of indwelling
pantaloons of repentance
pvp trinket
idol of perseverance
forest lord striders
naaru lightwarden's band

The rest of my armory pieces are correct if you choose to look at them.

Does anyone with a relatively high rating know if they can recommend to me some tips or change in my ability routine?

Usually what happens is:

• I burn my NS on the mage with cyclone right out of stealth.
• My spouse (rogue) goes after other class.
• Play LOS game for awhile while he is working on other class, and recyclone until DR makes the mage immune. If it's in Ruins of Lordaeron, cyclone until DR doesn't allow me to and try to run/shift in a large circle on the outside edge of the environment.
• Heal, swiftmend, decurse, and cure/abolish poison as necessary.
  
• If my spouse gets the other class down within 10-12 seconds (doesn't happen hardly at all due to following reasons), we have a 40-50% chance of winning. If he doesn't, then we always lose at this point, as eventually frost nova and frostbite will catch up to me faster than I can shift out. Or, the other class now has range on my spouse and has begun to chase me also. My trinket is usually down at this point, as well as my spouse's trinket and CLOS.
  
• Something that happens really often is if I don't get cyclone off right as it's ending from the previous cast, or when he turns immune, the mage will get a polymorph or a frost nova off on my spouse (twice, three times if necessary, to get my spouse to burn his CLOS and trinket cooldowns) and then it's just another game over since the other class will now start also chasing after me and may have already stunlocked me at this point.

It might be my gear, but gear has not made much of a difference, if at all, with any of the other classes up to this point, so I am inclined to think that it is not my gear, since it is not my gear with any other class makeup. I'm not specifically specc'd for arena and I don't plan to; but some discussion on successful routines fighting frost mages in particular would be most appreciated.

I have never tried to kill the Water Elemental; thank you. Definitely going to try that tonight. And to be quite honest, I don't use entangling roots all that much; I could definitely use it more, as you suggest.

This whole situation is most magnified in ROL where there is no real LOS. There is an LOS issue around the tomb, but most people after a few seconds of running in circles figure out they should jump on top of it, lol.

Plus by killing the WE, he might blow his CS cooldown and/or some other cooldowns; which puts the advantage in my court. The whole name of the game in 2v2, from what I've seen so far, is simply outlasting the other pair in mana & cooldowns. Almost has nothing to do with the actual class itself; well, with the other classes it hasn't for us. And that might solve my 'catch up' issue.

Maybe that is why i've been feeling like I can't shift in and out fast enough to get away from FN/FB; because of that pet. Usually I just ignore pets altogether and kite them around with me.

How much health does a WE have? I looked them up on Wowhead and their health isn't stated.

Thanks!

I think my WE has about 42008 HP and little-to-no armor. You(cat) + Rogue would destroy it almost instantly.

Also, more-so in ROl than any other Arena, the best place to LOS people is in the starting areas. It's really only a few steps away usually to one of them, hop around the corner, Regrowth + Rejuv, then hop back out.

Edit: My WE last night had about 4200 (according to pitbull), sorry for the mis-information.

[Druid] The Resto PVP Thread
This thread will give you a lot of good ideas to use as a resto druid. First step, pick up feral charge. It's another interrupt when cyclone is on cooldown. Timing feral charge, using roots (make them blink to get in range again), natures grasp should help. Cyclone isn't your only interrupt, learn to love feral charge. Against frost mages, you should be doing fine. You get less damage taken from them as you can shift out of the ice novas.

Something that I've noticed about Druids in Arena play is that they seem a bit too eager to shift out of any snare they possibly can. If you get Nova'd/Freeze'd it's worth it to shift, as you're sparing yourself a lot of damage from frozen Ice Lances. But shifting out of every snare that hits you (as the OP implies he does) seems like a lot of wasted time/mana. Being snared isn't gonna kill you, and with decent resilience the Frostbolts won't do a lot of damage on their own.
In Ruins of Lordaeron, there's a decent opportunity for LOS in the middle with the tomb. That's your best chance at LOSing enemy casters and you should take advantage of it wherever possible.

Also, as others have said...kill the Water Elemental if it's at all possible. That pet is a HUGE part of Frost Mage effectiveness in arenas.

Nature's Grasp only applies if you get struck by melee, doesn't it? I thought it was melee only. If that's not the case; I've been keeping that off CD way too long. Wow, I am going to feel utterly retarded if that's not the case, ha. Im going to respec this weekend to try FC.

Yes, ghando, you are correct about the shifting; and I am inclined to agree with you about the wasted time & mana, but I haven't been sure on how else to counter the snares. I get so busy shifting I don't have time to heal, cyclone, etc etc; and it just goes downhill from there.

The starting area trick sounds like it works really well against caster DPS. We usually have just not gone there, I think just because, if we're fighting melee we're kinda screwing ourselves. But of course, that is no reason not to let other people screw themselves, hehe.

Thanks so much, I honestly have been thinking and hoping it is my routine; cause I can change my routine a heck of alot faster than I can come up with a full set of PVP gear. Ya, definitely, thank you very much for the replies; there is some very good stuff in this thread I will be trying out at the first opportunity.

I'm fairly experienced in playing 2s with resto druid/combat rogue as that was my main arena team last leason. Teamed up with my brother, we ended just shy of the Gladiator rank with a ~2100 rating. It's a very durable combo for 2s, with the only real counter to it being warrior/paladin, making it highly enjoyable to play seeing as you have very high chance of beating anything else. It's quite impressive that you've reached as far as 1800 with virtually no resilience.

First off, I will have to agree with Cynic that blowing NS on cyclone first thing out of stealth seems like a terrible waste, you might want to reconsider that. You'd generally put it to better use with the NS+Healing Touch combo.

It seems to me that you choose to not target the mage first and this is also something you might want to reconsider. With no means to dispell polymorph, the pvp trinket remains as the rogue's only way to remove it. With this vulnerability to polymorphs I'd argue that your partner should instead go for the mage, applying the pressure so as to avoid being effectively locked out of the game. In our experience this is the most sensible thing to do, with a couple of exceptions, specifically when the mage is running with a warlock, or perhaps a rogue. If matched versus a mage/rogue team you will have to adapt according to which of you they choose to target. Most of the times they will go for the druid, in which case you you target the mage as usual. Otherwise, it's a straight up rogue vs rogue fight, backed up by druid and mage respectively.

When matched versus mage/warlock, you are simply forced to go for the lock due to it's ability to spam fear. Basically you have a window of opportunity to kill the lock during the time up until and after the first time your rogue becomes immune to polymorphs. Use the trinket to break the first poly, then try to avoid fears with CloS and Sprint. It's not as bad as it sounds though, that window is fairly big and you have a good chance of winning this matchup. It comes down to clever use of cooldowns to break CCs.

As for killing off the Water Elemental, I'm not sure I agree with this. Again, it leaves your rogue open for polymorphs. I've always ignored it myself and we've always fared well versus mages. I'd go so far as to say they rarely pose a threat. So I won't personally recommend it, but feel free to try.

I've used HT all of 10 times since I started this druid. Since I don't use it in PVE, I've never considered using it in PvP but I take it your friend and Cynic only use it with NS? Do you switch out idols before you use it?


Ya, you're right. we definitely choose to go for the second class first. Always.

I've seen a mage with a warlock, rogue, and priest; and I dont know if I've ever actually seen any other mage combos. Maybe other combos in like, the 1300/1400s. He has some trouble getting the jump/stun on a mage (when we've tried them first in the past) because usually he gets knocked out of stealth or even if he doesn't, ends up getting kited around everywhere and blows all his cooldowns trying to get to them. What you're saying though makes sense, and actually sounds alot more doable if I don't blast NS on cyclone.


On a somewhat related note, we've run into shadowsight popping up before we make our move ALOT.


Okay, so, usually is this how it goes with a mage/rogue combo for you guys?

My rogue jumps on mage.
Other rogue jumps on my rogue.
NS/HT my rogue. Rejuv & Lifebloom if time. Abolish/Cure poison possibly.
Other rogue heads for me. Probably mage will try but due to stuns, cannot.
Cyclone other rogue.
Travel form, run away, stop, shift, root rogue. Heal/Cure poison/whatever.
Travel form again to run away if he CLOS's. If he doesn't, either re-root him or cyclone him.
Heal, rinse, repeat.

This fight combo is alot more dependent on me getting the HoTs on my rogue and keeping them there, since he may be out of range from me alot; is that correct? That's kinda beside the point I guess, I try to keep HoTs up on him all the time, or particularly when I know I am not going to be standing there watching him from ten feet away.

I don't know how it's going to end up in higher brackets but usually the warlock in those combos (that I've seen) screws the mage by dotting both of us, and the mage can't sheep. If I see curse of agony on my spouse, I usually leave it and heal through it so he can't get polymorphed. I'll decurse if it's a different curse or if he has other DoTs on him, but if he has just COA, I leave it.

I play a frost mage and my last main was a hybrid feral druid and I did 2v2 with a combat mage rogue. I also have a 60 rogue.

I agree with the following advice.

- Save NS for a large HT at a critical time (when you cant afford getting CSd). Its very unlikely youll get counterspelled out of stealth on a 1.5 second cast with latency. The mage doesn't have you targeted yet or even set you as his focus so he can use his
/cast [Target = Focus] counterspell macro

- The Rogue should attack the mage to pressure and reduce chance of being chain sheeped. Yes the mage can blink, iceblock, frost nova, range pet freeze, 1 second frostbolt snare and cone of cold snare your rogue.... but the rogue can also do the following to him

garrote -> shiv -> AR -> improved kick -> SS SS

Then after a frost nova blink from the mage

CLOS -> deadly throw -> (mage will probably iceblock here)

At this point the mage has been silenced for about 5 seconds... with nothing protecting him except his shields. He will probably frost nova and blink. Your spouse can pop CLOS and deadly throw him gaining on him quick with no snares on rogue. The mage will be forced to immediately iceblock or die. Hell probably have summoned elemental by then so the rogue might want to snag a gouge on it to lower incoming damage while waiting out the iceblock. Once mage is out of iceblock he will blink again. Get a root on him if possible otherwise spouse blows imp sprint.

Youve now opened on the mage with the most pressure possible, forced an early iceblock and have a nice window to get the kill before the water elemental does much damage and before the 2nd iceblock is ready (30 seconds).

You the druid will have your hands full controlling the teamate. Youll need to get a cyclone on the teamate for the full 3 casts worth 10.5 seconds of CC through dimininshing returns and then be ready to heal your spouse through whatever damage comes next.

Hopefully the mage and rogue are running away from the mages teamate and you can root and feral charge to force seperation.

Most mages won't run with healers... they go OOM to quick and healers do better with locks etc. So try to do your best when the mage has a healer teamate... but it shouldn't be as hard imo.

Have your spouse read this info on rogues vs water elemental mage... most likely he knows all of the this but if not it might help alot.

World of Ming » TBC Rogue Dueling Guide Day 3: WE Mage

It really comes down to the rogue using shiv to get guarntee the mage immediately receives crippling poison and then is hit with spammed deadly throws (so there is no chance to get sheeped, 1 second frostbolt snare, kited etc) and you then rooting the mage to put him in a vulnerable position. Theres a small window of time where you need to get the kill with the rogues sprint up, and the mages iceblock and blink on cool down. But it will happen if you work together.

- Most of the time you don't want to kill the water elemental.

Killing water elemental means the mage has time to sheep and turn it into a 2v1. The rogue needs combo pts for deadly throw and if they're spent on the water elemental it opens up the mage to kite. Water elementals can be kited or LOS or gouged to limit the incoming damage... but you let the mage run loose and you will end up burning through the rogue precious cooldowns with little chance of getting control back.

Good luck, please post back what strats you try and if any work

Don't underestimate the damage, unless you play a group full of tank-mages. Shatter crits overpower resilience and hurts a lot. One frost mage staying on us is fine, we'll live. But if his partner is assisting on us, we better shift out of every snare to minimize the pain.

Do the mages ever trinket out of cyclone? If you ever notice your cyclone target trinket out of something, tell your rogue partner asap. A full duration blind can lead to a vanish/restealth sap for around 20 secs of CC.

Abuse the crap out of blind-sap combo imo.

Just wanted to add that double frost mage teams make me want to kick a baby. Went up against that combo a few times last week