Hello there,

I am writing for advice on 2v2 arena. My spouse and I love the adrenaline rush and all that; but we seem to have hit a cap. 95% of the time we play frost mages in Ruins of Lordaeron, we lose. We lose about 60-75% of the time in Nagrand & Blade's Edge due to taking advantage of LOS.

We seem to have not nearly the issues against any other class makeup as we do with frost mages. We'll get to 1750/1800 and lose to a bunch of frost mages, putting us back where we started. My armory is incorrect, as i logged out in my dmg set; but normally I am wearing:

t4 helm
t5 shoulders & gloves
bands of indwelling
pantaloons of repentance
pvp trinket
idol of perseverance
forest lord striders
naaru lightwarden's band

The rest of my armory pieces are correct if you choose to look at them.

Does anyone with a relatively high rating know if they can recommend to me some tips or change in my ability routine?

Usually what happens is:

• I burn my NS on the mage with cyclone right out of stealth.
• My spouse (rogue) goes after other class.
• Play LOS game for awhile while he is working on other class, and recyclone until DR makes the mage immune. If it's in Ruins of Lordaeron, cyclone until DR doesn't allow me to and try to run/shift in a large circle on the outside edge of the environment.
• Heal, swiftmend, decurse, and cure/abolish poison as necessary.
  
• If my spouse gets the other class down within 10-12 seconds (doesn't happen hardly at all due to following reasons), we have a 40-50% chance of winning. If he doesn't, then we always lose at this point, as eventually frost nova and frostbite will catch up to me faster than I can shift out. Or, the other class now has range on my spouse and has begun to chase me also. My trinket is usually down at this point, as well as my spouse's trinket and CLOS.
  
• Something that happens really often is if I don't get cyclone off right as it's ending from the previous cast, or when he turns immune, the mage will get a polymorph or a frost nova off on my spouse (twice, three times if necessary, to get my spouse to burn his CLOS and trinket cooldowns) and then it's just another game over since the other class will now start also chasing after me and may have already stunlocked me at this point.

It might be my gear, but gear has not made much of a difference, if at all, with any of the other classes up to this point, so I am inclined to think that it is not my gear, since it is not my gear with any other class makeup. I'm not specifically specc'd for arena and I don't plan to; but some discussion on successful routines fighting frost mages in particular would be most appreciated.

I'm not an expert on druid Arena play, but I have a few things to add. (I play a frost mage)

1) Blowing your NS straight away seems crazy to me, if you're worried about CS, you should be able to have the rogue at least gouge the mage so u have plenty of time to Cyclone him.

2) Make better use of entangling roots + LOS then heal, etc., I don't see druids use this enough.

3) Always, always, always kill the Water Elemental. Cyclone Mage + Root other, then kill the WE. Without the pet nova + dmg, the frost mage doesn't have the scary burst.

4) Consider dropping 2 more points into Nature's Reach (balance), being able to cast cyclone + root outside of mage CS range can be a big advantage (36 v. 30 yds)

I have never tried to kill the Water Elemental; thank you. Definitely going to try that tonight. And to be quite honest, I don't use entangling roots all that much; I could definitely use it more, as you suggest.

This whole situation is most magnified in ROL where there is no real LOS. There is an LOS issue around the tomb, but most people after a few seconds of running in circles figure out they should jump on top of it, lol.

Plus by killing the WE, he might blow his CS cooldown and/or some other cooldowns; which puts the advantage in my court. The whole name of the game in 2v2, from what I've seen so far, is simply outlasting the other pair in mana & cooldowns. Almost has nothing to do with the actual class itself; well, with the other classes it hasn't for us. And that might solve my 'catch up' issue.

Maybe that is why i've been feeling like I can't shift in and out fast enough to get away from FN/FB; because of that pet. Usually I just ignore pets altogether and kite them around with me.

How much health does a WE have? I looked them up on Wowhead and their health isn't stated.

Thanks!

I think my WE has about 42008 HP and little-to-no armor. You(cat) + Rogue would destroy it almost instantly.

Also, more-so in ROl than any other Arena, the best place to LOS people is in the starting areas. It's really only a few steps away usually to one of them, hop around the corner, Regrowth + Rejuv, then hop back out.

Edit: My WE last night had about 4200 (according to pitbull), sorry for the mis-information.

[Druid] The Resto PVP Thread
This thread will give you a lot of good ideas to use as a resto druid. First step, pick up feral charge. It's another interrupt when cyclone is on cooldown. Timing feral charge, using roots (make them blink to get in range again), natures grasp should help. Cyclone isn't your only interrupt, learn to love feral charge. Against frost mages, you should be doing fine. You get less damage taken from them as you can shift out of the ice novas.

They have around 6k or less HP from my experience [edit: poster above states 3.2k HP]. Two Lightning Bolts are usually enough to drop them and Frost Mage damage plummets considerably without Freeze.

Edit- And they have 0 Resilience.

Nature's Grasp only applies if you get struck by melee, doesn't it? I thought it was melee only. If that's not the case; I've been keeping that off CD way too long. Wow, I am going to feel utterly retarded if that's not the case, ha. Im going to respec this weekend to try FC.

Yes, ghando, you are correct about the shifting; and I am inclined to agree with you about the wasted time & mana, but I haven't been sure on how else to counter the snares. I get so busy shifting I don't have time to heal, cyclone, etc etc; and it just goes downhill from there.

The starting area trick sounds like it works really well against caster DPS. We usually have just not gone there, I think just because, if we're fighting melee we're kinda screwing ourselves. But of course, that is no reason not to let other people screw themselves, hehe.

Thanks so much, I honestly have been thinking and hoping it is my routine; cause I can change my routine a heck of alot faster than I can come up with a full set of PVP gear. Ya, definitely, thank you very much for the replies; there is some very good stuff in this thread I will be trying out at the first opportunity.

I'm fairly experienced in playing 2s with resto druid/combat rogue as that was my main arena team last leason. Teamed up with my brother, we ended just shy of the Gladiator rank with a ~2100 rating. It's a very durable combo for 2s, with the only real counter to it being warrior/paladin, making it highly enjoyable to play seeing as you have very high chance of beating anything else. It's quite impressive that you've reached as far as 1800 with virtually no resilience.

First off, I will have to agree with Cynic that blowing NS on cyclone first thing out of stealth seems like a terrible waste, you might want to reconsider that. You'd generally put it to better use with the NS+Healing Touch combo.

It seems to me that you choose to not target the mage first and this is also something you might want to reconsider. With no means to dispell polymorph, the pvp trinket remains as the rogue's only way to remove it. With this vulnerability to polymorphs I'd argue that your partner should instead go for the mage, applying the pressure so as to avoid being effectively locked out of the game. In our experience this is the most sensible thing to do, with a couple of exceptions, specifically when the mage is running with a warlock, or perhaps a rogue. If matched versus a mage/rogue team you will have to adapt according to which of you they choose to target. Most of the times they will go for the druid, in which case you you target the mage as usual. Otherwise, it's a straight up rogue vs rogue fight, backed up by druid and mage respectively.

When matched versus mage/warlock, you are simply forced to go for the lock due to it's ability to spam fear. Basically you have a window of opportunity to kill the lock during the time up until and after the first time your rogue becomes immune to polymorphs. Use the trinket to break the first poly, then try to avoid fears with CloS and Sprint. It's not as bad as it sounds though, that window is fairly big and you have a good chance of winning this matchup. It comes down to clever use of cooldowns to break CCs.

As for killing off the Water Elemental, I'm not sure I agree with this. Again, it leaves your rogue open for polymorphs. I've always ignored it myself and we've always fared well versus mages. I'd go so far as to say they rarely pose a threat. So I won't personally recommend it, but feel free to try.

It is melee, but keep it on anyway. It's another potential buff for them to steal if they use spellsteal trying to get your lb, rejuv, regrow, etc. Also, if you're up by them in cat, they will occasionaly melee you as well. Kind of amusing.

I've used HT all of 10 times since I started this druid. Since I don't use it in PVE, I've never considered using it in PvP but I take it your friend and Cynic only use it with NS? Do you switch out idols before you use it?


Ya, you're right. we definitely choose to go for the second class first. Always.

I've seen a mage with a warlock, rogue, and priest; and I dont know if I've ever actually seen any other mage combos. Maybe other combos in like, the 1300/1400s. He has some trouble getting the jump/stun on a mage (when we've tried them first in the past) because usually he gets knocked out of stealth or even if he doesn't, ends up getting kited around everywhere and blows all his cooldowns trying to get to them. What you're saying though makes sense, and actually sounds alot more doable if I don't blast NS on cyclone.


On a somewhat related note, we've run into shadowsight popping up before we make our move ALOT.


Okay, so, usually is this how it goes with a mage/rogue combo for you guys?

My rogue jumps on mage.
Other rogue jumps on my rogue.
NS/HT my rogue. Rejuv & Lifebloom if time. Abolish/Cure poison possibly.
Other rogue heads for me. Probably mage will try but due to stuns, cannot.
Cyclone other rogue.
Travel form, run away, stop, shift, root rogue. Heal/Cure poison/whatever.
Travel form again to run away if he CLOS's. If he doesn't, either re-root him or cyclone him.
Heal, rinse, repeat.

This fight combo is alot more dependent on me getting the HoTs on my rogue and keeping them there, since he may be out of range from me alot; is that correct? That's kinda beside the point I guess, I try to keep HoTs up on him all the time, or particularly when I know I am not going to be standing there watching him from ten feet away.

I don't know how it's going to end up in higher brackets but usually the warlock in those combos (that I've seen) screws the mage by dotting both of us, and the mage can't sheep. If I see curse of agony on my spouse, I usually leave it and heal through it so he can't get polymorphed. I'll decurse if it's a different curse or if he has other DoTs on him, but if he has just COA, I leave it.

I play a frost mage and my last main was a hybrid feral druid and I did 2v2 with a combat mage rogue. I also have a 60 rogue.

I agree with the following advice.

- Save NS for a large HT at a critical time (when you cant afford getting CSd). Its very unlikely youll get counterspelled out of stealth on a 1.5 second cast with latency. The mage doesn't have you targeted yet or even set you as his focus so he can use his
/cast [Target = Focus] counterspell macro

- The Rogue should attack the mage to pressure and reduce chance of being chain sheeped. Yes the mage can blink, iceblock, frost nova, range pet freeze, 1 second frostbolt snare and cone of cold snare your rogue.... but the rogue can also do the following to him

garrote -> shiv -> AR -> improved kick -> SS SS

Then after a frost nova blink from the mage

CLOS -> deadly throw -> (mage will probably iceblock here)

At this point the mage has been silenced for about 5 seconds... with nothing protecting him except his shields. He will probably frost nova and blink. Your spouse can pop CLOS and deadly throw him gaining on him quick with no snares on rogue. The mage will be forced to immediately iceblock or die. Hell probably have summoned elemental by then so the rogue might want to snag a gouge on it to lower incoming damage while waiting out the iceblock. Once mage is out of iceblock he will blink again. Get a root on him if possible otherwise spouse blows imp sprint.

Youve now opened on the mage with the most pressure possible, forced an early iceblock and have a nice window to get the kill before the water elemental does much damage and before the 2nd iceblock is ready (30 seconds).

You the druid will have your hands full controlling the teamate. Youll need to get a cyclone on the teamate for the full 3 casts worth 10.5 seconds of CC through dimininshing returns and then be ready to heal your spouse through whatever damage comes next.

Hopefully the mage and rogue are running away from the mages teamate and you can root and feral charge to force seperation.

Most mages won't run with healers... they go OOM to quick and healers do better with locks etc. So try to do your best when the mage has a healer teamate... but it shouldn't be as hard imo.

Have your spouse read this info on rogues vs water elemental mage... most likely he knows all of the this but if not it might help alot.

World of Ming » TBC Rogue Dueling Guide Day 3: WE Mage

It really comes down to the rogue using shiv to get guarntee the mage immediately receives crippling poison and then is hit with spammed deadly throws (so there is no chance to get sheeped, 1 second frostbolt snare, kited etc) and you then rooting the mage to put him in a vulnerable position. Theres a small window of time where you need to get the kill with the rogues sprint up, and the mages iceblock and blink on cool down. But it will happen if you work together.

- Most of the time you don't want to kill the water elemental.

Killing water elemental means the mage has time to sheep and turn it into a 2v1. The rogue needs combo pts for deadly throw and if they're spent on the water elemental it opens up the mage to kite. Water elementals can be kited or LOS or gouged to limit the incoming damage... but you let the mage run loose and you will end up burning through the rogue precious cooldowns with little chance of getting control back.

Good luck, please post back what strats you try and if any work

Some suggestions:

1) Are you always popping out of stealth when your partner does? From what you have said, it seems to suggest that they are always going for you...and if you're in low resilience gear, that could mean bad things. However, if you wait to pop out of stealth until after they focus fire your spouse, they'll have wasted valuable time DPSing a different target, or, even better, they'll stay on the rogue and you're both unsheepable (you can shift out of sheep, your spouse is being DPSed). Obviously waiting is not always best, but it can work to your advantage.

2) If you're having problems with your rogue getting chain sheeped, try opening on the other team by the stealth detect orbs (as you said they usually come out by the time you start). The other team will likely go for them, and you can expect it and open on them there. This then allows your rogue to pick up the stealth detect orb, which dots him and essentially grants him sheep immunity for 20(?) seconds as the stealth detect dot ticks on him.

3) Don't forget about all of the Druid CC available to you, you don't just have Cyclone. Open with pounce on the mage, which may force an early blink, then possibly go for a maim if no one's life is in jeopardy. Then you have Bear for FC and bash, which gives you time then for cyclone, and then finally roots. All on fairly short cooldowns.

4) If your spouse isn't using blind/sap (if possible)...do so. It'll force a trinket at the least, it'll CC someone at best.

Good luck.

Edit: I would strongly suggest killing the elemental. It's very weak, it puts out high DPS, and the ranged novas are game-breaking.

Do the mages ever trinket out of cyclone? If you ever notice your cyclone target trinket out of something, tell your rogue partner asap. A full duration blind can lead to a vanish/restealth sap for around 20 secs of CC.

Abuse the crap out of blind-sap combo imo.

Just wanted to add that double frost mage teams make me want to kick a baby. Went up against that combo a few times last week

I don't think I've noticed any trinkets out of cyclone although I'm sure it happens plenty.



Totally, dude. I curse like a sailor at my monitor when I play frost mages; elohel I get soooo mad and spout like 10 versions of the F word in a row with 'mage' in there a couple times. lmao. You would think someone pooped in my sundae. The next time I beat a frost mage I will be doing a victory dance (and probably use the F word a few more times too, hehe).

I'll post here on Saturday and let you know how it worked; We'll be doing Arena on Friday since there's no raids then.

Remember that NS+ht13 can be a nice 7-8k heal instant heal if it crits and also remember to use swiftmend.

I would recommend removing all talent points from improved mark of the wild, it is not even worth it when you raid. Put those in furor instead. Also consider getting natural shapeshifter, will reduce the cost of shapeshift and also consider putting points in empowered touch for the ns-ht. Remove improved tranq and some from living spirit.

Get feral charge and brutal impact from the feral tree.

Remember that you have cyclone, entangling roots, feral charge, bash, pounce and maim. Not only cyclone. And try to work together with your partners cc.

Who is the mage partnered with usually? If it's a warlock or shadowpriest , which are two of the few partners I can see a frost mage playing seriously with, your partner should have no problem killing him in 1 round of the mages nova cd's (which he can counter with his own). One problem is that you open with NS cyclone.... don't do that.

Mage/Healer
Keep the rogue on the mage, your biggest advantage in this setup is rogue energy is infinite and a frost mage will go out of mana VERY fast when trying to escape a rogue repeatedly. Untalented blink is like 650 mana, with a mage only rocking a 9.5k mana pool that get's eaten up fast. A good mage/priest team will actually try to lock down your rogue midfield and manaburn you, and they will run every chance they get and drink as often as possible (even for 1 tick)

The more elemental fire mage specs are the more devastating in 2v2 in my opinion. Blazing speeds eliminates the mages need for BoF and allows him to consistently kite melee classes for 0 mana cost, Blinking only when in dire need. The mage is still the one you want to be on though.

Remember your heals are instant, theirs are not. Your heals are not suffering from -healing effects (unless there's a troll priest lawlz) while theirs are. Stock up on arena water and communicate with your rogue, they should always let you know when CloS is up as it mitigates all of the teams incoming damage on mage/priest. It can mean the game if your rogue tells you he's going to use CloS for the next incoming burst damage, allowing you to sit and drink an extra 3-4s.

Mage/rogue
Burn your CC and cooldowns early, because they will be burning theirs. This combo thrives on early control and early burst, seperate them if you can.

I swear I made a post yesterday but it didn't seem to show up.


My post was that I'm on a rogue/druid team, (to make it way more brief), our biggest problem is warrior/healer. The warrior usually outdamages me by 2x what I do. I'm pretty generic arena combat mace 19/42 with a 8/11/42 resto druid.


How do you overcome the massive amount of damage warriors put out against you? Evasion only lasts so long.

I'm on a similar team, though my rogue is combat swords instead. For us, priest/warrior is no problem - just kill the priest, even a 400 resilience priest will go down pretty quickly since the warrior really doesn't really have a way to get the rogue off of him. Druid/warrior is next to impossible, there is no way for my rogue to get to the other druid while under the effect of spamstring, and warrior vs. rogue just doesn't work when the warrior is hotted to hell and back. Shaman/warrior is very luck based, you have to try to take down the shaman while rooting/cycloning the warrior, but if the warrior gets a couple of BL WF procs off its game over, druids just don't have the burst healing to compensate for it. Paladin/warrior really depends on the competence of the other team, our basic strategy is for my rogue to get on the paladin but save cooldowns until he bubbles or starts kiting, then switch to the warrior and cyclone spam/feral charge/bash the paladin to death. If he casts BoP on the warrior, or if you run out of DRs to CC the paladin, just cyclone the warrior and wait him out.

The real disadvantage that this setup has is that the warrior can intercept you at any time, while your rogue is stuck running around with hamstring, and if he isn't already on the healer he just isn't going to get there any time soon without popping a cooldown or two.

The thing is, there are 2300+ rated druid/rogue arena teams.

There must be something we're overlooking or something about how to approach warrior/(healer) (usually paladin/druid/shaman). For instance because my druid is very undergeared, I can't blood/poison kite the warrior, because if he intercepts my druid, the druid drops in about 1 hit(we've gotten to 1850 rating, and fallen 70 points/gained 70 points several times)

Granted both of us are undergeared, but you know how people like to say gear doesn't make the player. (he's wearing salamander scale pants from mc for instance)

I just wonder if that's the wall we're at, and if I have to wait for points to buy gear in order to progress with a better rating.

Yeah thats pretty much it, you need better gear, and specificially better PvP gear. In order to beat a lot of warrior + healer matchups both of you will need to be able to take a beating at some point, so you are going to need a lot of stamina and resilience to avoid getting gibbed.

Skill does factor in at some point, especially with your druid's ability to both lay down cyclones at the right time and keep both of you topped up, but if you aren't decked out in t5+ or arena epics you are eventually going to hit a wall until you can improve your gear.

Honestly, you see more rogues in high 2v2 these days because season 2 just has more warlock 2v2s than season 1 did. We're better than warriors against locks, and we do pretty well against priest/lock.