Big changes for season 3... - Page 10

crimsonsentinel · 10/28/07, 1:31 AM

Best case scenario, the talent stacks additively with resilience and there is no cap, in which case it would be much better than blessed resilience. Worst case scenario, it stacks multiplicatively with resil and contributes to the cap like the druid talent, in which case it would be pretty bad compared to blessed resil.

• Wodin · 10/28/07, 4:27 AM

According to Gameriot comments, it's currently subject to the 25% crit redux cap, so once you're crit the crit damage reduction maxes out. If it stacked, it would reduce crits by 55% with a decently geared character which means that a crit is actually worse than a hit, and they implemented the cap specifically to prevent that.

The +30% healing is nice enough. :/

Juli · 10/28/07, 6:20 AM

Originally Posted by Wodin

According to Gameriot comments, it's currently subject to the 25% crit redux cap, so once you're crit the crit damage reduction maxes out. If it stacked, it would reduce crits by 55% with a decently geared character which means that a crit is actually worse than a hit, and they implemented the cap specifically to prevent that.

The +30% healing is nice enough. :/

If it contributes to the 25% cap, it seems like it's an oversight. Why would the tooltip read 30% if 25 is the cap?

Edit: I don't think it should be 30% additional reduction, that seems way too powerful. It's probably fine the way it is; they should fix the tooltip though.

Edit2: After testing it in BGs and arena, I've changed my mind: I doubt it'd be overpowered. It's still less powerful than blessed resilience, and with it only giving the 30% healing bonus, its definitely NOT a survivable enough spec for most 5v5 setups, which I assume was what they wanted to fix. Discipline priests also lost some personal survivability (while increasing their ability to keep others alive) with the pain suppression change. Blessed resilience is still significantly better for 5v5 unless this crit reduction cap issue gets changed or the talent is reworked.

crimsonsentinel · 10/28/07, 4:59 PM

Its really pointless to not have it stack, imo.

If it stacks multiplicatively, a maxed resil preist would have around .7*.75=.52 or 48% damage reduction from crits, which means aside from the few classes with no 200% modifier on crits, crits would still do more damage than hits. Therefore the talent effectively mimics blessed resilience-1 crit per 6 seconds, but also has a bonus 30% healing on top. Given that healing priests have to give up a lot of healing talents to go disc, I say its not overpowered at all.

Amera · 10/28/07, 7:28 PM

If they want to make the top-end Disc more tempting, an undispellable protective buff would really help with that. Is the "Focused Will" effect dispellable on the PTR atm?

crimsonsentinel · 10/28/07, 7:50 PM

Everything a priest has is dispellable. Obviously there are % resistance talents that help, but theoretically everything including pain suppresion is dispellable.

It's not a bad thing either; it gives priests a weakness while allowing us to have unique and powerful defensive skills. If we get to many passive unremovable defensive skills we'll be like too much like paladins.

HarryM · 10/28/07, 11:44 PM

Greetings yet again!

I apologize if this is posted at a less than optimal topic thread but PVP survivability is what prompted this. I decided to spec Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft which includes enrage and bloodcraze. After some testing I noted that on several occasions, enrage would proc, but not blood craze. On a few occasions also, bloodcraze would proc but not enrage. I talked to some who stated that its probably because of resilience but I then found this exceprt from patch notes 2.0.7:

"Any effect which benefits the victim of a critical strike will now trigger even if resilience converted the attack from a critical strike to a normal strike; this applies to melee, ranged, and spell. The affected talents, abilities, and items are: “Eye for an Eye”, “Blessed Resilience”, “Enrage”, “Martyrdom”, “Blood Craze”, “Eye of the Storm”, and “Bonespike Shoulder”.

As such one would expect that enrage and bloodcraze should both proc. I reported this to a GM who basically "apologized for the inconvenience" and stated that it was "working as intended" and still made a comment about resilience.

I have at least one more warrior confirming that they have experienced this. I would appreciate any input on the matter or a baseline from others who have specced Blood Craze longer.

Regards,
Andurel

-=N_tity=- · 10/29/07, 12:08 AM

Originally Posted by HarryM

Greetings yet again!

I apologize if this is posted at a less than optimal topic thread but PVP survivability is what prompted this.

I would appreciate any input on the matter or a baseline from others who have specced Blood Craze longer.

Regards,
Andurel

Very bad placement!

Anyway, the answer that you're looking for is that each point of negative crit percentage that you gain from resilience gives the same percentage for your "on being crit" abilities to proc from a normal hit on you.

Hope that helps.

Hodan · 10/29/07, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by HarryM

"Any effect which benefits the victim of a critical strike will now trigger even if resilience converted the attack from a critical strike to a normal strike; this applies to melee, ranged, and spell. The affected talents, abilities, and items are: “Eye for an Eye”, “Blessed Resilience”, “Enrage”, “Martyrdom”, “Blood Craze”, “Eye of the Storm”, and “Bonespike Shoulder”.

As such one would expect that enrage and bloodcraze should both proc. I reported this to a GM who basically "apologized for the inconvenience" and stated that it was "working as intended" and still made a comment about resilience.

I have at least one more warrior confirming that they have experienced this. I would appreciate any input on the matter or a baseline from others who have specced Blood Craze longer.

Regards,
Andurel

Working as intended.

Originally Posted by Eyonix

We've seen many players report it as a bug when abilities that activate upon landing a critical strike activate inconsistently with resilience. For instance, if a warrior has both Enrage and Blood Craze talents, only one will activate when a critical strikes is prevented by resilience.

This is not a bug.

This is due to the underlying implementation for this feature. The game doesn't actually know that hit would have been a critical hit if not for resilience. Instead we've added a small chance to activate off non-crits based on resilience gear. Each abilities rolls this chance separately, so they will only occur together if a player is very lucky.

Clockwise · 10/29/07, 11:57 AM

Is anyone else worried that very geared healers getting ~600-800 spell damage will make healers completely overpowered in pvp situations, particularly arenas?

Resto shamans will now also be able to frost shock/lightning bolt me for copious amounts. Holy priest SW:P will tick reasonably. Druid full-rank moonfire damage will be considerable.

I think these situations are dangerous for balance, as fully-geared members of these classes were already too difficult to kill for many players.

gnuoyiy · 10/29/07, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Clockwise

Is anyone else worried that very geared healers getting ~600-800 spell damage will make healers completely overpowered in pvp situations, particularly arenas?

Resto shamans will now also be able to frost shock/lightning bolt me for copious amounts. Holy priest SW:P will tick reasonably. Druid full-rank moonfire damage will be considerable.

I think these situations are dangerous for balance, as fully-geared members of these classes were already too difficult to kill for many players.

Healers won't be spending all their mana DPSing as they are specced for healing. Mana conservation is huge in arena, so no this change won't affect it much except for the very few situations where healers add a bit of burst damage if they feel it calls for it and their mana situation allows for it.

Basically, in a team setting, it will have very tiny impact on arena. 1v1 is a different story as they will actually be able to kill players now instead of heal tanking for 124591245 minutes.

Cronjob · 10/29/07, 1:02 PM

Has there been mentioned as to how exactly the personal rating will be determined? Currently I am on a roughly 1990 5 v 5, 1900 2 v 2 and a 1658 3 v 3 which I joined to help some friends.

Will being on that 3v3 team hurt my overall rating? Am I better off running just my 5 v 5? Will it be some sort of average of all the teams ratings you are on?

Clockwise · 10/29/07, 1:04 PM

Originally Posted by gnuoyiy

Healers won't be spending all their mana DPSing as they are specced for healing. Mana conservation is huge in arena, so no this change won't affect it much except for the very few situations where healers add a bit of burst damage if they feel it calls for it and their mana situation allows for it.

Basically, in a team setting, it will have very tiny impact on arena. 1v1 is a different story as they will actually be able to kill players now instead of heal tanking for 124591245 minutes.

I'm more specifically looking at the 1v1 type of thing, which many matches, especially 2s and 3s, devolve to. I fear that most dps classes will be unable to solo any healer of equal gear in a 1v1 setting. I think the sort of "plan B" scenarios in which already hard-to-kill resto druids start moonfiring for 1k+ are extremely scary. Of course healers will be healing when you're on "plan A", that's why they are there. But if you're not on plan A, I can't imagine any dps class 1v1'ing a well-geared and skillful resto druid or shaman after the patch.

Example: SL/SL Lock/Resto Druid v Warrior/Mage

Team is able to get warlock down, lock's dots kill warrior. Now we're in mage v druid territory, which *previously* was unwinnable for either side given equal gear/skill. Now, the druid laughs at the mage kills him easily since the druid now has at least 600-700 spell damage.

It's been said to death that the game isn't balanced around 1v1, but I think this sort of a change might be a little extreme.

Edit -- If survivability and mana regen/conservation is the key to winning arena matches, then in theory, wouldn't a resto druid with 2000 healing, 700 +damage, 400 resil, travel form, cyclone, roots, feral charge, innervate, swiftmend, and a large amount of passive mana regen just inevitably beat anything? This hypothetical but certainly not unreasonable druid would have more survivability than any warlock/rogue/warrior/hunter/ other dps-spec hybrid. I could foresee said druid beating any two opposing players given a large enough gear imbalance. Given equal gear, though, I don't think it's beatable by anything. Classes that can't heal would die in a maximum of ten full duration moonfires, if you did nothing else.

Rej · 10/29/07, 2:58 PM

Originally Posted by Clockwise

If survivability and mana regen/conservation is the key to winning arena matches, then in theory, wouldn't a resto druid with 2000 healing, 700 +damage, 400 resil, travel form, cyclone, roots, feral charge, innervate, swiftmend, and a large amount of passive mana regen just inevitably beat anything? This hypothetical but certainly not unreasonable druid would have more survivability than any warlock/rogue/warrior/hunter/ other dps-spec hybrid. I could foresee said druid beating any two opposing players given a large enough gear imbalance. Given equal gear, though, I don't think it's beatable by anything. Classes that can't heal would die in a maximum of ten full duration moonfires, if you did nothing else.

First off, most people don't have more than 1500 +heal in gear while maxing out resilience. Please stop making up numbers, it doesn't lend credence to your argument.

Second, a good chunk of +heal comes from enchants and gems. These have been stated to remain +heal only, and will not give a damage boost. So we're looking at significantly LESS than 1500 +heal, and far far less than +700 damage (which, by the way, can't even be reached with +2000 healing).

Thirdly, a healer will not have any of the damage talents, because he/she is specced for healing. A Holy priest might get an extra 200 damage to Smite. He's not going to suddenly have all the powers of the Shadow tree available to him. Adding some +damage is not the same as being able to nuke like someone specced for it.

Fourthly, you're quoting a Druid as an example - already widely regarded as one of the more powerful 2v2 and 3v3 classes. Oh, and just listing off a class' abilities doesn't mean much.. in fact, it means nothing at all. We all have powerful tools at our disposal. (And large amount of passive mana regen? Don't make up stuff, again.)

Fifthly, there's enough anti-healer out there already. 3 classes with Mortal Strike. 2 classes with a "kick". 2 classes with a counterspell. 2 classes with Silence. and 3 classes with manaburn. Goodness knows how many Warriors run around with Skillheralds. 4-DPS fast-burn teams are on the rise due to the fact that they are extremely hard to counter with straight healing, yet relatively easy to implement. I hardly think it's unreasonable for the developers to throw healers a bone, especially given the fact that they have a hard time soloing or grinding.

• sadris · 10/29/07, 3:01 PM

Originally Posted by Rej

First off, most people don't have more than 1500 +heal in gear while maxing out resilience.

Wrong.

Second, a good chunk of +heal comes from enchants and gems. These have been stated to remain +heal only, and will not give a damage boost.

Wrong.

Keline · 10/29/07, 3:20 PM

Sadris, how am I supposed to get significantly more heal than 1500 while also maxing out resilience? I'm at 376 resilience with 1502 healing (including the 35% int Talent!) and frankly there are no other upgrades available to me.

I know there are healers with more than 1500 heal in the Arena, but they are not maxing out resilience.

Rej · 10/29/07, 3:26 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

Wrong.

Some more explanation on why this is wrong would be appreciated. I respect Juggernaut (as I hail from Doomhammer) so there's no need to be curt, Sadris.

Ok, you're right in that many paladins swap in PvE raid pieces to really boost their +healing. But paladins aren't exactly known for their nuking abilities. I know for a fact that priests in full season2 (both Arena and Honor gear) can only break 1400 +heal.

Secondly, it's been posted by a developer that +damage will be specifically listed on gear that has +healing. Gems and Enchants don't mention the damage boost, neither do temporary buffs like potions or food. Therefore I don't think they'll be factored into the damage bonus. If I'm wrong about this please link an example, and I will stand corrected.

• sadris · 10/29/07, 3:46 PM

[Teardrop Living Ruby]
[Item not found!]

The World of Warcraft Armory
Non-enchanted rings, res capped by Druid standards by wearing all PVP pieces except the horrible, horrible cloak. Swap the trinket for the resilience one, enchant the rings and would be even higher. Druids don't even have a talent to give them +healing from int, spirit, etc.

Edit: Have to click the links, the local EJ item DB hasn't yet updated them.

Cisphyx · 10/29/07, 3:49 PM

Originally Posted by Rej

Secondly, it's been posted by a developer that +damage will be specifically listed on gear that has +healing. Gems and Enchants don't mention the damage boost, neither do temporary buffs like potions or food. Therefore I don't think they'll be factored into the damage bonus. If I'm wrong about this please link an example, and I will stand corrected.

WoW Forums -> +1500 healing does NOT = +500 damage

Posted by Drysc:
It includes enchants, gems, and all other items. The only exceptions are temporary buffs, and some BC leveling greens with "of the..." stats, and some Zul'Gurub items, as there is a current limitation on how many different stats can be distributed on an item, which we're working to extend for the future.

Malakitoo · 10/29/07, 3:58 PM

Originally Posted by Keline

Sadris, how am I supposed to get significantly more heal than 1500 while also maxing out resilience? I'm at 376 resilience with 1502 healing (including the 35% int Talent!) and frankly there are no other upgrades available to me.

I know there are healers with more than 1500 heal in the Arena, but they are not maxing out resilience.

How do you have such low resilience when "maxing it out"?

Personally, as resto, I have nothing gemmed with resil gems, and hit 425 resil with 1500ish (I think 1517, currently elemental so I can't check) +heal. That's using 2piece s1, 2piece s2, s2 elemental gloves with a 20 dmg enchant, KoT rep trinket, full honor gear, the Prince cape and the Magtheridon head turn-in ring. That would be "maxing resil" for 2v2s, although I still don't have any resilience gems in my gear, nor am I wearing anything like the Vet's band of dominance or sergeant's cape which would bring my resil higher at the cost of int and +heal.

In more healing focused gear, I hit 375 resil with 1713 +heal using full s2, full honor (except cloak and second ring), and the scarab of the infinite cycle. I have 1 stam/resil gem in there as well to help me get my meta to work. I don't know if paladin and priest gear spends more budget on spell crit or mana/5, but it seems to me that if you're really maxing resil you should have more resil than you do, and if you're trying for a balance gear you should be getting at least 100 more +heal while keeping the same amount of resilience.

The obvious questions would be, what are you gemming for? If you gem for spell crit or something, that would be a major reason. Trinket selection is also large, I either use a resilience trinket or a trinket with some passive +heal so it shows up in this comparison. If you use something else that could explain it. Finally, do you have all your enchants geared to +heal? If you have 30 int to weap and 12 stam to bracers, that's 111 heal right there. Epic spellthread, helm enchant, shoulder enchant, and glove enchant are needed as well.

Rej · 10/29/07, 4:19 PM

Originally Posted by Cisphyx

WoW Forums -> +1500 healing does NOT = +500 damage

Posted by Drysc:
It includes enchants, gems, and all other items. The only exceptions are temporary buffs, and some BC leveling greens with "of the..." stats, and some Zul'Gurub items, as there is a current limitation on how many different stats can be distributed on an item, which we're working to extend for the future.

Ah, ok. I had thought lack of the dmg quantifier meant it wasn't there. Thanks for clearing that up.

Rej · 10/29/07, 4:36 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

The World of Warcraft Armory
Non-enchanted rings, res capped by Druid standards by wearing all PVP pieces except the horrible, horrible cloak. Swap the trinket for the resilience one, enchant the rings and would be even higher. Druids don't even have a talent to give them +healing from int, spirit, etc.

This druid is sitting at 1597 +heal. That's over 1500 to be sure, but not quite at the heights of "2000 +healing", nor does it indicate that most other healers reach those kinds of numbers. Furthermore (as you pointed out), he's using PvE cloak and ring, and his trinket boosts healing by an additional 70. Other healers might opt for something with more stamina/resilience, being more vulnerable than a skilled Druid.

The gist of what I was saying remains the same. Most naysayers of the change are misjudging the impact of giving healers a damage boost. I have concerns of my own - I don't like the idea of making 4-DPS teams into 4.5-DPS teams - but overall I think we won't be seeing much imbalance caused by the bonus.

Juli · 10/29/07, 4:58 PM

Originally Posted by Clockwise

Is anyone else worried that very geared healers getting ~600-800 spell damage will make healers completely overpowered in pvp situations, particularly arenas?

Resto shamans will now also be able to frost shock/lightning bolt me for copious amounts. Holy priest SW:P will tick reasonably. Druid full-rank moonfire damage will be considerable.

I think these situations are dangerous for balance, as fully-geared members of these classes were already too difficult to kill for many players.

I won't speak for the other classes, but holy priest SW:P is not something to worry about. Holy priests do not get shadow form, darkness, shadow weaving, or improved SW:P. These talents are multiplicative and are specifically why you cannot viably spec half way down into shadow and play as a hybrid. Even if they gave healing priests +1000 spell dmg it wouldn't be something to be terribly worried about. Mind blast + death to help burst down a target is the only thing to worry about, and that suffers from the same talent stacking restrictions. Mana limitations and the high cost of nuking relative to healing someone who is spec'd for damage dealing will keep healer nuking limited mostly to the final burst to take someone down.

The extra damage will be helpful, but you're reading way too much into it.

Keline · 10/29/07, 5:39 PM

How do you have such low resilience when "maxing it out"?

I'm wearing 7/7 S2, 3/3 Veteran's ornamented, SSC resilience Ring, 1 resilience trinket, 2/2 Salvation. Only non-resilience item is the other trinket and the cloak.

Aphyrax · 10/29/07, 5:42 PM

600 spell damage is nothing without supporting talents. This will, however, make DPS/heal hybrid builds more viable, which is a good thing since it adds variety. At the top end I still predict the cookie cutter to prevail though.

I am really tempted to dust off my old quad healer 5v5 though. Have all healers spec a bit into damage and you could get an interesting setup.