Big changes for season 3... - Page 3

diotox · 09/27/07, 4:03 PM

Originally Posted by Myonax

Being able to see opposing teams buffs without detect magic will be game changing. You will be able to quickly find out which teams have stealthed ferals and which locks are demo, and ice armor...

Its going to take a lot of the guess work out of early arena focus targets.

Not to mention the whole polymorph+detect to add an extra debuff to cleanse, or even devour magic, is now down the toilet as well.

syeren · 09/27/07, 4:15 PM

Originally Posted by Vermis

stoneform my dear

The thing that chills me is that alliance sees this as nerf, the thing is as most of us allready know fears are ridiciously OP they were allways and they'll be in future. Now that IF in 2.3 fearward is distributed to all priests its a winwin for all priests. One less concern if blizz implents a boss encounter with fear ward. It was stupid enough that all alliance priests were more or less forced to roll dwarf due fearward and stoneform, now its just stoneform. Stoneform still being the best possible priest racial for pvp.

What comes to defence against rogue you allready have the best possible racial, well gnomes would be kinda neat as well but still, the rest lies upon your mates helping you to keep that melee off. Undead rogues will be pain in the ass for priests, but go and ask any mage how do they feel about gnome warriors. Pain in the ass perhaps but just live with it. I curse every gnome to the lowest pit of hell everytime I get focused, fair that they can counter most of my abilities? Perhaps no but thats just the way it is.

Now that im at it, which is a bit weird on this forum since im mostly just reading it and god forbid to do so thorough analyzes as some do on other sections. I just sincerely hope that blizzard would see that other parts other than gladiator upgraded.

DP isn't so much the issue on the Undead Priests, they get a rather mediocre dispel buffer and that dumb spells, it's the Undead Aspect of the Priest which makes them have they're very own version of Fear Ward (Albeit better,) on Demand, along with another on demand Fear remover now :P

As for Stoneform, any good Rogue will save their 4-5 point Kidney Shots JUST for when you pop your GCD on this, and normally by the time you're using Stoneform, you've already had to use your trinket :P

As for Gnomes countering Mages, Sweet they get out of one GCD and then you either choose to freeze them or Rank 1 Bolt them to keep you away from you, it's doable, Redhot does it no problem to Crzz, hell most good Mages do it to Gnome Warriors, the only reason I bring it up with regards to a Priests is how bad we have it when it comes to our own defensive measures when it comes to stopping other people doing anything to us due to how horribly weak Psychic Scream is as a defensive spell (albeit due to this, it's rather nice as an offensive spell, but this doesn't help the Holy Priest who has the individual / assist train on him). Imagine you could only snare / stop that Warrior from hitting you every 30 seconds, and he gets out of three of them instantly due to Racial / Trinket, that's the problem Holy Priests are presented with as a whole (Alliance have probably had this the worst over the duration of the game, but I'm sure UD Priests love it when they have our Fear Warded Rogues on them, Just like we love their UD Rogues on us

)

As for how it's going to be after this, I'd just rather Fear Ward be removed from the game completely due to what a nightmare Undead players could become with the huge availability of this buff to them, and no, I couldn't give a crap about the implications it has on PVE, if your tank can't stance dance, he's either not suited for the role in the first place (Druids / Paladins,) he needs to learn to play, or he needs removing from the position / guild in question :P

oldmandennis · 09/27/07, 5:07 PM

Another problem with the rating restriction is that people are not going to have any incentive to play. A 1500 team can get 4pc gladiator in 5 months, what do they do after that? My feral druid will be out of stuff to buy in no more then 3 months.

IMO they should be releasing more, bigger point sinks, rather than eliminating them.

• sadris · 09/27/07, 5:15 PM

Originally Posted by oldmandennis

The only thing that is really missing is comparing your personal rating to the other teams rating, for purposes of adjusting your personal rating. If you join an all-star team of 2400, with your personal rating of 1500, and you play against other 2400 teams, you should get 32 (that's the max for a win, right) personal points, and if you lose you should lose only 1 point. That way the teams personal ratings will converge at about the actual team rating.

If you join a 2400 rated team and are capable of winning, then it means that your personal rating should be a number over ... 1900.

Aphyrax · 09/27/07, 5:27 PM

Originally Posted by oldmandennis

Another problem with the rating restriction is that people are not going to have any incentive to play. A 1500 team can get 4pc gladiator in 5 months, what do they do after that? My feral druid will be out of stuff to buy in no more then 3 months.

IMO they should be releasing more, bigger point sinks, rather than eliminating them.

There are new idols coming. Also, they lowered the points a 1500 5v5 is getting. And don't forget that you can buy S2 weapons, which are still quite nice and cost a bundle. So a 10 games a week player at 1500 will likely not run out of stuff to buy, unless the season is really long.

Originally Posted by oldmandennis

The only thing that is really missing is comparing your personal rating to the other teams rating, for purposes of adjusting your personal rating. If you join an all-star team of 2400, with your personal rating of 1500, and you play against other 2400 teams, you should get 32 (that's the max for a win, right) personal points, and if you lose you should lose only 1 point. That way the teams personal ratings will converge at about the actual team rating.

I am quite certain that that is how it is going to work. Blizzard has not given the details and given their vast experience in the matter of automated matchmaking and player ranking, I don't see them implementing a solution with glaring holes. They might be slow but they tend to be thorough.

Leto · 09/27/07, 5:29 PM

Originally Posted by oldmandennis

Another problem with the rating restriction is that people are not going to have any incentive to play. A 1500 team can get 4pc gladiator in 5 months, what do they do after that? My feral druid will be out of stuff to buy in no more then 3 months.

IMO they should be releasing more, bigger point sinks, rather than eliminating them.

Wand, offhand, save points for next season?

Cwealm · 09/27/07, 6:19 PM

Originally Posted by Tower

Not to turn this into a huge racial debate, but gnomes and dwarves are still the mage/rogue killing races, like undead and orc are the priest/rogue killing races. Check any of the Arena mapping sites out there, many have rerolled Alliance for dwarf and gnome racials. Stoneform itself lead an underepresented class to own up the 2v2 bracket on a competitive Battlegroup (Hamchook).

Horde racials are more suited to Battlegrounds than Arena, in my opinion.

But I regress, I would have rather seen them remove Fear Ward completely and give dwarves their new CC ability.

You know what racial really rocks?

Diplomacy.

WTF was I thinking (other than that I levelled a gnome to ten and hated looking at everyone's knees)?

I still have never found a competitive arena team, but I am curious how the detect magic change will impact the role of mages in arena.

gia · 09/27/07, 7:08 PM

Originally Posted by Blixa

They only plan to upgrade boots, belt and bracer. If there is a logic here, I fail to see it. Anyone care to explain?

My guess is they want new models to match the skin of season 3 armor.

oldmandennis · 09/27/07, 7:23 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

If you join a 2400 rated team and are capable of winning, then it means that your personal rating should be a number over ... 1900.

My impression was that the personal rating would reset to 1500 every time you joined a team. If that is not the case, the most likely other system would be that you maintain your personal rating across team jumps. That would lead to the obvious abuse of 5 people logging in alts and losing a bunch of games down to 1400, then logging in mains to pump their personal ratings up to 2000. If they do reset on joining a team, but do not float independently of the teams rating in some way, then anybody joining a mature, stable team will see their personal rating go sideways for the most part.

Originally Posted by Aphyrax

There are new idols coming. Also, they lowered the points a 1500 5v5 is getting. And don't forget that you can buy S2 weapons, which are still quite nice and cost a bundle. So a 10 games a week player at 1500 will likely not run out of stuff to buy, unless the season is really long.

I am quite certain that that is how it is going to work. Blizzard has not given the details and given their vast experience in the matter of automated matchmaking and player ranking, I don't see them implementing a solution with glaring holes. They might be slow but they tend to be thorough.

Calculations were done with the new point curve, and most people who want one probably have a S2 weapon by now.

At this point, trusting Blizzard is a very silly thing to do. Go see the Illidan enrage thread.

sargsui · 09/27/07, 8:20 PM

SCENE: A successful fruit store, interior.

Just so you know, I read the whole thing and appreciated it.

Also, dwarves can no longer stoneform out of blind as it is a physical effect now. So dwarf priests are now the bane of mutilate rogues primarily!

gia · 09/27/07, 8:27 PM

Originally Posted by oldmandennis

My impression was that the personal rating would reset to 1500 every time you joined a team. If that is not the case, the most likely other system would be that you maintain your personal rating across team jumps. That would lead to the obvious abuse of 5 people logging in alts and losing a bunch of games down to 1400, then logging in mains to pump their personal ratings up to 2000. If they do reset on joining a team, but do not float independently of the teams rating in some way, then anybody joining a mature, stable team will see their personal rating go sideways for the most part.

I think the whole point of a personal rating is to completely ignore your own team's rating in the calculation.

Say you're in a 1500 rated team and have a personal rating of 2000.

You win vs a 1600 rated team. Team rating +18. Personal rating +2.
You lose vs a 1800 rated team. Team rating -6. Personal rating -22.

With the way the ELO system works, over time if you always play with the same team and play all games in that team, your personal rating will be close to identical to that of the team. It probably wouldn't even take that long, maybe less than 50 games.

Personally I like this change and hope they're gonna take the extra step and apply it to arena points as well. You should get rewarded arena points based on your personal rating and not your team rating. This prevents a lot of team manipulation like buying/selling teams, or playing 3 games with a group of alts/buyers; and then have the regular lineup play the other 7 games.

(disclaimer: the rating values above I just made up on the spot as an example)

• sadris · 09/27/07, 8:45 PM

Originally Posted by gia

Personally I like this change and hope they're gonna take the extra step and apply it to arena points as well. You should get rewarded arena points based on your personal rating and not your team rating. This prevents a lot of team manipulation like buying/selling teams, or playing 3 games with a group of alts/buyers; and then have the regular lineup play the other 7 games.

So then why have a roster over 2,3,5 people? This screws over *good* players who need the gear (geared night elf priest plays the 7 games, his dwarf priest reroll plays the other 3, for example) but don't yet have it, and people who play with friends and/or the "lesser classes" of rogues, hunters.

gia · 09/27/07, 8:56 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

So then why have a roster over 2,3,5 people? This screws over *good* players who need the gear (geared night elf priest plays the 7 games, his dwarf priest reroll plays the other 3, for example) but don't yet have it, and people who play with friends and/or the "lesser classes" of rogues, hunters.

Roster larger than team size is useful for replacing people so that you are less reliant on having every person online at all times to be able to play.

As for letting an alt play 3 games, it's not an issue if he actually wins them. If he doesn't, then I don't think he deserves what are effectively free points. I would probably even make it so you have to play 10 personal games (instead of 10 team games) to be eligible for the week's points, so playing 3 games wouldn't even work.

Edit: Just to elaborate a bit further: I've actually been in that situation this season, trying to gear up my priest with 0 resilience and letting him play 3 games a week on a 2200 rated 3v3 team. I don't think it's fair though and the system should be designed to prevent this. I've pretty much accepted now that the vast majority of people in my BG over 1800 are now fully geared and playing at or over that rating without full arena gear is always gonna be a handicap. But that's just the way the game is, I don't think my alt should be automatically stronger just because my main is. The same should be true for anyone that buys or gets handed high rated arena teams.

Calantus · 09/27/07, 9:16 PM

Originally Posted by Tower

Not to turn this into a huge racial debate, but gnomes and dwarves are still the mage/rogue killing races, like undead and orc are the priest/rogue killing races. Check any of the Arena mapping sites out there, many have rerolled Alliance for dwarf and gnome racials. Stoneform itself lead an underepresented class to own up the 2v2 bracket on a competitive Battlegroup (Hamchook).

Horde racials are more suited to Battlegrounds than Arena, in my opinion.

But I regress, I would have rather seen them remove Fear Ward completely and give dwarves their new CC ability.

Stoneform will be a mere shadow of its former self once it can no longer remove blind. I'd rather have WotF frankly if I had the choice of racials, but I'd still rate stoneform as the second-best racial for a priest and the best for alliance (mostly because wotf and stoneform are the only good racials on priest enabled races...). Coincidently WotF will be the only racial to break from true CC once the change goes through.

The new fear ward is also pretty damn bad compared to the old fear ward. What made it so contested is the 30 second cooldown due to how it affected PVE and how you could reapply the buff frequently midfight in PVP. Now it's... a fear immunity every 3 minutes? What does that do for anyone? Oh sure it's useful, but it's not anywhere near useful/powerful enough for it to be a hot topic like it was before. I'm not complaining, I just see it as Blizzard giving it to every priest to shut them up. Kinda like how they gave mages invisibility which, while useful, is nothing like the invisibility mages were asking for.

Crossbones · 09/27/07, 9:45 PM

Originally Posted by oldmandennis

Another problem with the rating restriction is that people are not going to have any incentive to play. A 1500 team can get 4pc gladiator in 5 months, what do they do after that? My feral druid will be out of stuff to buy in no more then 3 months.

IMO they should be releasing more, bigger point sinks, rather than eliminating them.

Aside from the shield they just put in tuesday, I haven't had things to buy in ~2 months. I definitely agree, there needs to be more useful items on the arena vendor.