# Fleet Footed increased to 15% speed increase
# Deadly Throw traveling speed is being increased significantly, it will reach your target faster and the snare will last one second longer.
# Ruthlessness won't be triggered by Deadly Throw anymore, and Ruthlessness will be changed to only affect melee finishing moves as a whole.
# Blind no longer requires a reagent, is changed to a physical attack, will share the same diminish category as cyclone, and will diminish in PvE as well as PvP.
# Shadowstep can be used at any time (even when you're not stealthed). After the use of Shadowstep threat caused by the next Ambush, Garrote, or Backstab will be reduced by 50%. The cooldown will be increased to 40 seconds.
# Dirty Deeds increases the damage of special attacks by 10%/20% against targets that are below 35% health.
Update:
# All poisons will now enchant the weapon for 1 hour, increased from 30 minutes.
So who thinks Subtlety Rogues will be the new Arms Warriors then? In terms of prescriptive specs, not effectiveness, silly!
15% run speed in Assassination is very nice, but not as nice as a 40 sec dmg-boosted intercept.
The Deadly Throw nerf is pretty horrible, it was hardly OP before- it also makes the S2 War Edge look even worse compared to the S1 than it already does, since the Deadly Throw 'cooldown' is now irrelevant.
Question: Now blind is physical, presumably a BoP will remove it?
Naturally one would expect Ice Block and Bubble to also (and cloak won't make you immune to it from other rogues). This means that a target can get BoP'd of Blind and be on DR for the next Cyclone already. This is a definite disbenefit for teams with both a Rogue and Druid. A sort of minor Cyclone nerf (that a dispellable ability can put it on DR). On the up side, full Subt rogues' blind will have a decent range and halfish-decent cooldown.
I was totally underwhelmed by the Shadowstep change initially, but Ming makes a good point- a Vanish, Step, Ambush, CB-EV on someone under 35% HP is going to be pretty nasty!
Originally Posted by Ming
Dirty Deeds increases the damage of special attacks by 10%/20% against targets that are below 35% health. Wow, can you say 38/0/23? 40 energy cheap shots with 120 energy bar. +36% damage on backstabs after you catch a target below 35% health during kidney shot. What about shadowstep ambush? +20% from shadowstep, +10% from master of subtlety, +20% from dirty deeds, that is +50% damage on an ambush, instant death for anyone below 35% health once you add the follow-up damage. We can work on healers and shadowstep ambush the target on assist, finally a long range nuke our class desperately needed!
All in all, very nice buffs for subtlety rogues! We will see how it all stacks up in live play. Dirty deed is a HUGE buff for our class as a lethal finisher. This talent excites me more than anything else. It really is the DPS buff subtlety needed to be competitive. 30031's 5 CP ambush -> CB evis is probably death for any class caught by it below 35%.
What other class changes do you think will effect Rogues? The nerf to anti-disarm for Warriors will just mean every single one will use a weapon chain (cue LBRS farming! - or wherever it is - only 2-3 people can even do chains on my whole server), so no real effect there. Or at least they will after they get Riposted a few times... or maybe they won't, since clearly the Rogue buffs are intended to make Combat much less 'obvious' as a PvP spec.
Lastly the non-PvP implications: clearly the under 35% 'execute' thing ups Subtlety raid dps a fair amount - in the PvE threads people are dismissing the changes since serious PvEers don't go Subt. Well maybe not, but serious PvPers often want to raid too, and Blizz has made it very clear they want every spec in every class to be raid *viable* at the least, even if they can't, of course, all be equal.
Regarding the change to the Warrior talent with disarm immunity to a duration reduction I believe weapon chains will most likely undergo the same effect. If this change will happen then this suddenly means a fairly big buff to combat specced rogues as Riposte is the only low cooldown Disarm in the game and will certainly rise alot in effectiveness again. It will make combat rogues have the natural advantage while fighting other melee dps classes whereas the sub/mutilate specced rogues lean more towards to being effective versus cloth classes.
I am interested in the deep sub changes though, I might consider respeccing to a deep subtelty spec depending on how it all goes through, but untill more information is released I wont speculate too much.
I was totally underwhelmed by the Shadowstep change initially, but Ming makes a good point- a Vanish, Step, Ambush, CB-EV on someone under 35% HP is going to be pretty nasty!
That example has nothing to do with the ShS changes, that is entirely possible on live servers now. It's still annoying to pull off, vanish doesn't always stick long enough to step and it's only a 20yrd range.
The new 35% damage buff is ok but will still be unimpressive on non-crits.
A lot of the time I get feared away, far away. Or someone trinkets crippling and gets 1 pace ahead of me, only for me to never be able to catch up. The fact that no one will be able to simply run away is a nice buff. It's kinda a passive buff to 'getting back in the fight after a frost nova' type thing.
Don't get me wrong, it could be better- it's still not as fast as the base speed of Druids in Cat form, for example. And they are much much harder to snare/root.
That example has nothing to do with the ShS changes, that is entirely possible on live servers now. It's still annoying to pull off, vanish doesn't always stick long enough to step and it's only a 20yrd range.
The new 35% damage buff is ok but will still be unimpressive on non-crits.
Well it's still 20% on yellow damage (probably 70% or more of an arena dagger rogue's damage) on targets under 35% HP. However you look at it. It just depends how it works with the rest of the tree.
You're right that it's possible now (hell, in 2.3 the cooldown is actually being increased), but no one really tried it because the other supporting talents weren't there to make it a viable spec as a whole.
I do completely agree that Subt loses a lot, overall, due to the fact that openers after the first, from the vanish and prepped vanish are very difficult to pull off.
This may turn out to be a case where Subt rogues are very strong in 2v2 and 3v3 but secondary to combat and assass rogues in 5v5. Who knows, yet?
Personally I'm a huge assassination fan so I hope Subt *doesn't* become the be all and end all arena spec (like arms warriors, frost mages, etc.).
I still really think you have to give up far too much to go that deep in the sub tree. They still have not changed the fact that so many of those talents improve stealth or are based off openers, which we've already established are an extremely minor percentage of your time spent in arena. A big part of the reason intercept is so godly(aside from the ultra short cooldown), is the 3 second stun associated with it makes it function perfectly against moving targets, even ones that have BOF. Shadowstep is 40 seconds, and has no stun or even root effect to go with it - this really does not strike me as that significant of a mobility boost for rogues. If the target is moving and is not snared, if you shadowstep to him, are you not still going to be 8-10 yards behind him? Mobile targets can easily escape intercept if they resist the stun component, so it seems shadowstep will suffer this fate a huge amount of the time.
Now, if they hadn't nerfed the cooldown of shadowstep in the process, I think we might have something here. But as it stands I still don't see shadowstep becoming useful unless they also make more changes to the sub tree.
I was totally underwhelmed by the Shadowstep change initially, but Ming makes a good point- a Vanish, Step, Ambush, CB-EV on someone under 35% HP is going to be pretty nasty!
Yea that'll be awesome at level 71 when we can get both Shadowstep and Cold Blood.
</troll>
Overall, meh. The Blind changes are great, but I was very much OK with Shadowstep as it was. If they want to increase our mobility, that's awesome. But 41 points in a tree for a 40-second cooldown? Against all the skills that classes use to kite or get us out of melee range, that doesn't seem to help much...
Frost Nova = 24 sec, 20 talented
Cone of Cold = 10 Sec, 8 talented
Concussive Shot = 12 sec
Curse of Exhaustion = No cooldown, 12 sec duration
Fear = No cooldown
Psychic Scream = 30 sec, 26 talented
You get the idea. Our answer to being kited or feared out of melee range shouldn't be on such a long cooldown. 20 was fine, 15 might be a bit overpowered given the no-Stealth requirement now, but a well-kited rogue is going to be dead long before 40 seconds are up.
However, I'm quite pumped for the Dirty Deeds change. I've been pondering a similar spec as Ming that would abuse mid-Tier Assassination talents for some brutal pvp burst. I can't wait to mess around with this!
Shifting Blind from poison to physical is undeniably a buff. BoP removing Blind is nothing compared to every poison removal affect in the game working on Blind.
Fleet Footed is a nice little buff, but the only time I really see it being of use are those incredibly frustrating times when you're *just* out of range of someone who keeps running forward and your choice is to blow Sprint or get kited. I don't see it having much of a real impact in most organized PVP, but it's nice.
Ruthlessness changes are pretty harsh. There are going to be times when even a 4s DT isn't going to get you back in range (hell, we all can have stories about times when 2 3s DTs weren't enough). I'm most unhappy with this change because being kited is just not any fun at all.
Obviously Shadowstep is a solid increase in PVP mobility, but a) it won't help if you're snared and b) the cooldown is so long as to render it just one more distance closer per fight (maybe two). But compare it to Improved Sprint which gives you one more distance closer per fight but is much cheaper (in terms of spending talents), and in the much stronger Combat tree.
Dirty Deeds gives sub some finishing power, but I've yet to see that sub can actually get someone who's on a team with a healer to 35% by themselves. As part of a coordinated burst though, this looks brutal. Again the real question is: is this enough to convince people to spec 21+ sub? It's the first 20 points of sub that are awful, not the last 20. (As a sidenote, DD in PVE is only a marginal DPS upgrade -- 2 or 3% from my back of the napkin math)
I think the biggest issues with the changes presented to us thus far is how little they do for your average PVPing rogue. The change to blind is the only one that is at all widespread and a buff (DT nerf is just as widespread as almost everyone has ruthlessness). Mutilate gets ... 7% more speed if you put talents into an uncommon spec. Combat gets nothing. Sub rogues get an attempt to make them worthwhile in arenas, and while that's great, I'm still of the opinion that rogues in general need more mobility and survivability. Adding a tiny tweak to mobility 41 points deep in sub doesn't cut it, and there are no survivability tweaks.
Make Shadowstep remove snares, then we'll be cooking with gas. The main draw to Shadowstep is not to consistently use it on a target that is kiting you, but to focus one target, then close distance on another for punishing damage.
The main problem putting 41 points into Sub is your lack of control via Combo Points, for 41 Sub to truly be competitive, we need the Combo Point change to go in, and maybe have some talent like Setup have a % chance to add extra combo points on normal abilities. Jamming Imp Backstab and getting 1 CP every 6s is actually pretty brutal. And why doesn't Sub have a talent that decreases energy use on Gouge?
But all in all, these changes don't do jack squat for 5v5. I guess you'll be able to gib a little faster as 4dps in Shadowstep. But it's not like that change was needed.
I think the large increase to ShS cooldown is largely to avoid the Mage community complaining about having one of their premiere abilities potentially overshadowed. And I don't think that concern is unwarranted - even w/ the functional differences between Shadowstep and Blink now it's dangerous (from a design perspective) to go taking one class' abilities and giving it to another, almost irregardless of cost. However, the CD yet again puts Rogue up there as on of the most CD-centric, frontloaded classes.
Here's what I'd like to see:
Shadowstep can be used at any time (even when you're not stealthed). After the use of Shadowstep threat caused by the next Ambush, Garrote, or Backstab will be reduced by 50%. The cooldown will be increased to 40 seconds. Anytime the player stealths, the cooldown of Shadowstep is refreshed.
The main problem putting 41 points into Sub is your lack of control via Combo Points, for 41 Sub to truly be competitive, we need the Combo Point change to go in, and maybe have some talent like Setup have a % chance to add extra combo points on normal abilities. Jamming Imp Backstab and getting 1 CP every 6s is actually pretty brutal. And why doesn't Sub have a talent that decreases energy use on Gouge?
Very much agree. Mutilate has a ton of control, but in a fragile environment. Shadowstep has good mobility, but virtually no control. Combat is just /snore.
I've suggested before that Sinister Calling replace Deadliness (and maybe increase to 20% to compensate for the lack of AP), and put the 35-40 point talents as something like this:
Gives your Backstab and Hemorhage abilities a 20/40/60/80/100% chance to grant an additional combo point.
Rogue mobility is not an issue when we aren't snared. It is an issue when we are snared. How exactly does the Fleet Footed change help that?
A lot of rogues have trouble with latency and thus will always be out of range for backstabs on moving targets. Every try chasing a paladin w/ freedom ?
Fleet footed is basically a must have because every rogue will have it or shadowstep.
Fleet footed needed a fix but I think its still too far down the tree.
Make it 15% or have enchants stack to 15%, put it in a lower teir (one or two or three) and add the resist roots component to a subtlety talent. Even make it three points (5/10/15).
--
Basically, as proposed, they will make every pvp rogue go assassination because its so peachy and shadowstep is so buggy and has a long cooldown?
It would be interesting to see Setup changed to be 100% chance to add 1cp when you dodge or resist anyones attacks, not just your targets. Maybe add a 10-15% chance when taking damage to add a combo point, this would kind of be like a "be careful of focus firing that rogue", because you could slam up massive amounts of CP to shadowstep over and unleash on a target. This would all be assuming CP were not bound to single targets, of course.
Do remember that as soon as they buff shadowstep enough to be 'worth getting', they buff rogue survivability quite a lot.
Not only can Step get you out of trouble (giev step to friendly targets, please), but you have double vanish and sprint, and other lifesaving talents like Cheat Death or that AoE avoidance one.
Fully agree though, that in a 5v5 environment none of these stack up to the likes of Quick Recovery.
I wouldn't call Mutilate a 'marginal' spec though either. In the only REALLY viable 5v5 slot (on a 4DPS team), I'm getting increasingly tempted to go back to daggers for the extra control, for imp KS, QR and for the extra poison applications, since we have no MS in our line up. Even combat specs get to take some Imp Poisons, so another weakness of a deep Subt spec with slow backstabs will be on the poison application side... (although I would guess, in fact, that a MH dagger w/o Imp P ~= MH mace w/ imp P).
It would be interesting to see Setup changed to be 100% chance to add 1cp when you dodge or resist anyones attacks, not just your targets. Maybe add a 10-15% chance when taking damage to add a combo point, this would kind of be like a "be careful of focus firing that rogue", because you could slam up massive amounts of CP to shadowstep over and unleash on a target. This would all be assuming CP were not bound to single targets, of course.
Even with many CPs, can you really 'unleash' massive damage? That's one of the rogue classes key problems: it's energy that limits us, not CPs. Even with infinite CPs, the most we could do is an Eviscerate every 4 seconds. It's not THAT big a deal.
Don't get me wrong, the CPs staying on the rogue would change rogue playstyle significantly, esp. Step rogues, and should definitely come as soon as possible.
My biggest Step concern remains that voiced near the top of the page- without a stun component, it's much worse than you think. Go spec if now and try it in BGs if you don't believe me. It's very hard to pull off, if not impossible, against a moving target.
My biggest Step concern remains that voiced near the top of the page- without a stun component, it's much worse than you think. Go spec if now and try it in BGs if you don't believe me. It's very hard to pull off, if not impossible, against a moving target.
I spent some time leveling/instancing as ShS; if you macro ShS to your openers, lag is no longer an issue.
That is with the thought of being in stealth and having a 100 Energy. outside of stealth against a moving target the only abilities you can really use right after that to stop your opponent are kidney shot or shiv.
Even with many CPs, can you really 'unleash' massive damage? That's one of the rogue classes key problems: it's energy that limits us, not CPs. Even with infinite CPs, the most we could do is an Eviscerate every 4 seconds. It's not THAT big a deal.
Well I was assuming any build worth a damn in PvP or PvE has Relentless Strikes, particularly a dagger one. So if you have a talent that is feeding you CP at a fairly high rate from focus fire or general incoming damage, and only spending 10 energy on finishers with a 60% chance to retain a CP, unleashing 2 Eviscerates in 4s wouldn't be unhead of. Sure, it isn't massive damage, but in small scale 2v2 and 3v3 battles near free, near instant damage is not to be scoffed at.
I've spec'd Shadowstep pre-TBC and post, and I do agree on the moving target issue, but there is a conscious decision to be shadowstepping onto a moving target vs a target that is healing one that you were trying to kill. It would be nice to see them add a .5s stun or something and lower the damage bonus, or have it snare the target by 80% for 1s or something.
I don't actually mind the Deadly Throw nerf, although I never considered it overpowered. I just feel like the ability to "spam" it (for very loose definition of spam) goes against the spirit of the class and would rather have our mobility issues solved in some other way, which seems to be happening to some extent. I'm glad the one time use of DT is getting a buff though, and the other changes seem nice although I'm not sure they're sufficient.
I still really want to see something to address Resilience in Assassination, since the tree is so crit reliant.
If hemo is going to receive a buff and shadowstep buff hemo damage like it buffs ambush and stuff (I mean, if that is still going to be shadowstep buff) Hemo can become nice again in pvp, or at least better then it is now.
I've spec'd Shadowstep pre-TBC and post, and I do agree on the moving target issue, but there is a conscious decision to be shadowstepping onto a moving target vs a target that is healing one that you were trying to kill. It would be nice to see them add a .5s stun or something and lower the damage bonus, or have it snare the target by 80% for 1s or something.
Wouldn't taking Shadowstep off the Global Cooldown be a good solution for this problem?
One would be able to, say, shiv Crippling the same second he ported himself to his target.
09/27/07, 6:32 AM
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