[Hunter]2.3 Arena changes

Kaber · 09/28/07, 9:03 PM

•Wyvern Sting is now instant cast
•Arcane Shot (Rank 6+) will now dispel 1 Magic effect in addition to damage
•Serpent Sting, Immolation Trap, and Explosive Trap gain additional damage based on Ranged Attack Power

Original Thread: WoW Forums -> 2.3 "Official" Patch Notes

This is for discussing the changes to Hunters in regards to Arena viability, whether or not they work, how or why, root issues that are or need to be addressed, etc. Please keep posts constructive.

Lysander1 · 09/29/07, 1:15 AM

Immolation and Explosive will still be pretty much useless. Even if they recieve gigantic benefit from AP scaling, nothing will outweigh the extra damage from having someone Entrapped and freely damaged in the open. Serpent Sting could be good if it gets huge scaling, but I would guess that for a 1800 AP Hunter Serpent Sting won't deal more than maybe 800 damage. Which, honestly, is not worth the risk of breaking CC or losing the chance to Scattershot or Freezing Trap the target. In fact, I doubt its even worth the mana in most instances. Arcane Shot buff is pretty important, 41 yards dispel is the longest in the game, and it allows Hunters to do stuff against BoP.

Enova · 09/29/07, 3:39 AM

Wyvern sting being changed from 1.5 second cast to instant brings up a few new possibilities as well, allowing for an extra bit of reliable crowd control.

Now, for deep survival builds, especially the ones with Readiness, this makes for some pretty early uses of the enemy's PVP trinket, and it also allows pinning down a target in plain sight for later nuking.

Oh, and they added a new gladiator weapon for hunters (for season 3, i suppose)

WoW Forums -> Tom Chilton DOES care about healer people!

[Vengeful Gladiator's Waraxe]
+62 Stamina
+46 Critical Strike rating
+33 Resilience rating
+15 Hit rating
+92 Attack Power
+98 Armor Penetration

Cost: 1000 arena points (no rating requirement)

Kaber · 09/29/07, 5:51 AM

That weapon is absolutely huge for Hunters. I was about 2 weeks from getting a season 2 "stat stick," but I am definitely going to hold out for that. It is about time they gave hunters something on par with the throwing weapon.

Shandara · 09/29/07, 6:05 AM

Is anyone disturbed by the fact that Shaman's Frost shock is no longer going to be susceptible to diminishing returns? It's already hard enough to get away from one as it.

Also, even the arcane shot change will not help the fact that we do not have the burst dps to finish someone off (once arcane/multi are on CD, and they frequently are when we try to kill someone) or a reliable way to get to ranged once a rogue/war/shaman gets into our deadzone.

Bakony · 09/29/07, 9:07 AM

The changes proposed for 2.3 are nice but they don’t solve the real problem that hunters have in arena. Once someone gets into our deadzone it’s very difficult to move out especially if we are the focus target. I mainly PVP on my holy Paladin and every time I see a hunter in any bracket I’m actually happy since I know it’s going to be easy once my partner/partners get on the hunter.

Loshiis · 09/29/07, 5:52 PM

Removing frost shock from DR seems like a pretty terrible idea. It was a change made to allow enh shamans to stay in melee of their target, but giving resto shamans and ele shamans the ability to kite us or melee indefinitely with frost shock is just screaming for issues. Perhaps they should keep the idea, but give it as a talent in the enh tree.

Celnathor · 09/29/07, 5:53 PM

I'll second the notion that there are some decent things in there(well, decent *thing* really - dispelling arcane shot), but not enough to really change much.

The problem I see with these changes is that they don't address hunters real weakness - we're pigeonholed into an endurance/outlast role in arenas(which requires a very specific group setup and playstyle), and the changes really do nothing to change us/allow us to compete better outside that role. Dispelling arcane shot is nice, but at one dispel every 5-6 seconds, you're looking at the better part of a minute before you've ripped off many buffs off people. It's still a skill that really makes us better at chipping away at people, not blowing people away, and that is where the problem lies.

After these changes, hunters will be a little better than before at whittling people down in longer fights, but we're still going to be bottom-of-the barrel when dealing with high-DPS setups(i.e. with/against just about any 4 DPS team). We still can't do anything terribly useful versus high-armor targets, in terms of damage like casters can, or lockdown/healing debuffing like warriors/rogues can.

Also, the low-cost weapon is nice, but it has the look of an item designed for another class, whose stats were copied, and a "Hunter" label slapped on it. Calling something a "Hunter" item when it has zero agility on it is a little bit insulting. That's not a "Hunter item", it's a generic DPS item that happens to be usable by hunters.

Loshiis · 09/29/07, 6:46 PM

I have to agree with the above sentiment. Purge on a 6 second cooldown is *very* nice for support, but it doesn't really change our role overall in a group pvp setting. If the intent really is to make us a DPS/support hybrid in PvP, then we need even more utility than what we currently have; why take a Hunter over an elemental shaman or an ice mage? Currently the only reason is viper sting...I'm not sure that's enough.

Shandara · 09/29/07, 7:05 PM

Originally Posted by Loshiis

Removing frost shock from DR seems like a pretty terrible idea. It was a change made to allow enh shamans to stay in melee of their target, but giving resto shamans and ele shamans the ability to kite us or melee indefinitely with frost shock is just screaming for issues. Perhaps they should keep the idea, but give it as a talent in the enh tree.

Especially when said kiting option does more damage than my arcane shot

People say we would be overpowered if we had burst damage, but as it is, with high resilience targets and hunter PvP itemization being as it is (not really high crit, not really high AP, just lots of stamina/res) any class can shrug off our 'burst' damage.

What I find lacking is some way to deal damage (other than auto-shot) when multi/arcane are on CD. Steady Shot/Aimed Shot is almost never an option, unless I'm being ignored (in which case the opposing team is stupid) and just standing there auto-shooting gets me laughed at.

Most other classes have a spammeable spell/ability and, more important, a talent to reduce spell pushback to go with it. Hunters don't.

Zulrai · 09/29/07, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by Shandara

People say we would be overpowered if we had burst damage, but as it is, with high resilience targets and hunter PvP itemization being as it is (not really high crit, not really high AP, just lots of stamina/res) any class can shrug off our 'burst' damage.

Call this pointless whining if you like, but this is a direct statement on how pointless the immediate nerfs on Arcane and Silencing Shot were soon after release of tBC. Stamina and resilience easily countered potential hunter damage. Meanwhile, our damage has not seen similar gains to how much stam/resilience have increased through upgraded gear.

Osse · 09/30/07, 9:28 AM

Some kind of cloak of shadows which only removes snares would be useful. It's really almost impossible to get away from rogue+warrior and then there's possibility that a mage will frost nova you immediately when you burn all your cooldowns to get away. Really frustrating in 5v5.

Aett · 09/30/07, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Shandara

Is anyone disturbed by the fact that Shaman's Frost shock is no longer going to be susceptible to diminishing returns? It's already hard enough to get away from one as it.

I'm confused as to how you're complaining about the change to Frost Shock without also bringing up hamstring? It's bringing Frost Shock in line with every other slow in the game. If I'm running around in my enhance gear, and a hunter gets me out of his dead zone, I'm gone. There is nothing I can do at that point to get back in his deadzone unless he really, really screws up.

If you want to complain about chainable slows then complain about warriors before shamans, they are way worse for you.

sargsui · 09/30/07, 12:53 PM

Hunters being pigeon-holed into outlast is no different than rogues being pigeon-holed into 4dps. It's not that big of a deal, considering warriors perform poorly on a 4dps team, etc.

Instant Wyvern Sting and dispel on arc shot open up a lot of team possibilities that are being overlooked. You're going to see more 3dps teams with hunters I think, I am for certain going to give hunter/mage/rogue a try. Whether the hunter takes scattershot or readiness (scatter is better in my opinion) that's a lot of chainable CC. Sap, polymorph, silence, scattershot, blind (undispellable!), trap, wyvern sting... yeesh. The dispel effect on arc shot will clear Freedom or Protection much more reliably than mage spellsteal as well and from a huge range.

It may not be AS effective as mage/rogue/spriest, but there are things a hunter can do that a spriest cannot and vice-versa, I think it will work out fine.

I'm mostly worried about 15% runspeed paladins with 6sec Crusader Strikes. No thanks.

Loeff · 09/30/07, 2:53 PM

Originally Posted by sargsui

that's a lot of chainable CC. Sap, polymorph, silence, scattershot, blind (undispellable!), trap, wyvern sting... yeesh.

That does sound strong. It also sounds impossible. Hunters can't have scatter and silence and Wyvern.

I've said it before, but I think it bears repeating, while these proposed changes are nice, they do not help in the areas hunters need. They do not help our lack of burst damage. The do not address the deadzone bug. They do not give us increased survivability. They're token changes, and not even very good ones at that.

For example, it's being reported on the WoW Hunter Forum that the increase to Serpent Sting, Immolation Trap, and Explosive Trap will be 10% of RAP (can anyone confirm this is true?). That would mean, for me, that my sting would go from 660 over 15 sec to 850 over 15sec. The mana cost stays the same at 258 (I have points in Efficency). So, currently, that's 2.55 dmg per mana, and after the change will be 3.29 dmg per mana. I agree. This is a buff.

But, compare to my Steady Shot, which does 538 dmg for only 103 mana. That's 5.22 dmg per mana. Why would I ever use the sting when I get more bang for the buck with Steady? To bring the sting damage up to this level, it would have to do 1347 dmg over 15 sec, which would mean 35% of RAP added. But even then, Steady has a chance to crit, which stings don't, making Steady even more desirable, especially in a PvP situation.