Kaber

•Wyvern Sting is now instant cast
•Arcane Shot (Rank 6+) will now dispel 1 Magic effect in addition to damage
•Serpent Sting, Immolation Trap, and Explosive Trap gain additional damage based on Ranged Attack Power

Original Thread: WoW Forums -> 2.3 "Official" Patch Notes


This is for discussing the changes to Hunters in regards to Arena viability, whether or not they work, how or why, root issues that are or need to be addressed, etc. Please keep posts constructive.

 

Lysander1

Immolation and Explosive will still be pretty much useless. Even if they recieve gigantic benefit from AP scaling, nothing will outweigh the extra damage from having someone Entrapped and freely damaged in the open. Serpent Sting could be good if it gets huge scaling, but I would guess that for a 1800 AP Hunter Serpent Sting won't deal more than maybe 800 damage. Which, honestly, is not worth the risk of breaking CC or losing the chance to Scattershot or Freezing Trap the target. In fact, I doubt its even worth the mana in most instances. Arcane Shot buff is pretty important, 41 yards dispel is the longest in the game, and it allows Hunters to do stuff against BoP.

 

Enova

Wyvern sting being changed from 1.5 second cast to instant brings up a few new possibilities as well, allowing for an extra bit of reliable crowd control.

Now, for deep survival builds, especially the ones with Readiness, this makes for some pretty early uses of the enemy's PVP trinket, and it also allows pinning down a target in plain sight for later nuking.

Oh, and they added a new gladiator weapon for hunters (for season 3, i suppose)

WoW Forums -> Tom Chilton DOES care about healer people!

[Vengeful Gladiator's Waraxe]
+62 Stamina
+46 Critical Strike rating
+33 Resilience rating
+15 Hit rating
+92 Attack Power
+98 Armor Penetration

Cost: 1000 arena points (no rating requirement)

Guilty as charged ^

 

Kaber

That weapon is absolutely huge for Hunters. I was about 2 weeks from getting a season 2 "stat stick," but I am definitely going to hold out for that. It is about time they gave hunters something on par with the throwing weapon.

 

Shandara

Is anyone disturbed by the fact that Shaman's Frost shock is no longer going to be susceptible to diminishing returns? It's already hard enough to get away from one as it.

Also, even the arcane shot change will not help the fact that we do not have the burst dps to finish someone off (once arcane/multi are on CD, and they frequently are when we try to kill someone) or a reliable way to get to ranged once a rogue/war/shaman gets into our deadzone.

 

Bakony

The changes proposed for 2.3 are nice but they don’t solve the real problem that hunters have in arena. Once someone gets into our deadzone it’s very difficult to move out especially if we are the focus target. I mainly PVP on my holy Paladin and every time I see a hunter in any bracket I’m actually happy since I know it’s going to be easy once my partner/partners get on the hunter.

 

Loshiis

Removing frost shock from DR seems like a pretty terrible idea. It was a change made to allow enh shamans to stay in melee of their target, but giving resto shamans and ele shamans the ability to kite us or melee indefinitely with frost shock is just screaming for issues. Perhaps they should keep the idea, but give it as a talent in the enh tree.

 

Celnathor

I'll second the notion that there are some decent things in there(well, decent *thing* really - dispelling arcane shot), but not enough to really change much.

The problem I see with these changes is that they don't address hunters real weakness - we're pigeonholed into an endurance/outlast role in arenas(which requires a very specific group setup and playstyle), and the changes really do nothing to change us/allow us to compete better outside that role. Dispelling arcane shot is nice, but at one dispel every 5-6 seconds, you're looking at the better part of a minute before you've ripped off many buffs off people. It's still a skill that really makes us better at chipping away at people, not blowing people away, and that is where the problem lies.

After these changes, hunters will be a little better than before at whittling people down in longer fights, but we're still going to be bottom-of-the barrel when dealing with high-DPS setups(i.e. with/against just about any 4 DPS team). We still can't do anything terribly useful versus high-armor targets, in terms of damage like casters can, or lockdown/healing debuffing like warriors/rogues can.

Also, the low-cost weapon is nice, but it has the look of an item designed for another class, whose stats were copied, and a "Hunter" label slapped on it. Calling something a "Hunter" item when it has zero agility on it is a little bit insulting. That's not a "Hunter item", it's a generic DPS item that happens to be usable by hunters.

 

Loshiis

I have to agree with the above sentiment. Purge on a 6 second cooldown is *very* nice for support, but it doesn't really change our role overall in a group pvp setting. If the intent really is to make us a DPS/support hybrid in PvP, then we need even more utility than what we currently have; why take a Hunter over an elemental shaman or an ice mage? Currently the only reason is viper sting...I'm not sure that's enough.

 

Shandara

Especially when said kiting option does more damage than my arcane shot

People say we would be overpowered if we had burst damage, but as it is, with high resilience targets and hunter PvP itemization being as it is (not really high crit, not really high AP, just lots of stamina/res) any class can shrug off our 'burst' damage.

What I find lacking is some way to deal damage (other than auto-shot) when multi/arcane are on CD. Steady Shot/Aimed Shot is almost never an option, unless I'm being ignored (in which case the opposing team is stupid) and just standing there auto-shooting gets me laughed at.

Most other classes have a spammeable spell/ability and, more important, a talent to reduce spell pushback to go with it. Hunters don't.

 

Zulrai

Call this pointless whining if you like, but this is a direct statement on how pointless the immediate nerfs on Arcane and Silencing Shot were soon after release of tBC. Stamina and resilience easily countered potential hunter damage. Meanwhile, our damage has not seen similar gains to how much stam/resilience have increased through upgraded gear.

I kill two dwarves in the morning...

 

Osse

Some kind of cloak of shadows which only removes snares would be useful. It's really almost impossible to get away from rogue+warrior and then there's possibility that a mage will frost nova you immediately when you burn all your cooldowns to get away. Really frustrating in 5v5.

 

Aett

I'm confused as to how you're complaining about the change to Frost Shock without also bringing up hamstring? It's bringing Frost Shock in line with every other slow in the game. If I'm running around in my enhance gear, and a hunter gets me out of his dead zone, I'm gone. There is nothing I can do at that point to get back in his deadzone unless he really, really screws up.

If you want to complain about chainable slows then complain about warriors before shamans, they are way worse for you.

 

sargsui

Hunters being pigeon-holed into outlast is no different than rogues being pigeon-holed into 4dps. It's not that big of a deal, considering warriors perform poorly on a 4dps team, etc.

Instant Wyvern Sting and dispel on arc shot open up a lot of team possibilities that are being overlooked. You're going to see more 3dps teams with hunters I think, I am for certain going to give hunter/mage/rogue a try. Whether the hunter takes scattershot or readiness (scatter is better in my opinion) that's a lot of chainable CC. Sap, polymorph, silence, scattershot, blind (undispellable!), trap, wyvern sting... yeesh. The dispel effect on arc shot will clear Freedom or Protection much more reliably than mage spellsteal as well and from a huge range.

It may not be AS effective as mage/rogue/spriest, but there are things a hunter can do that a spriest cannot and vice-versa, I think it will work out fine.



I'm mostly worried about 15% runspeed paladins with 6sec Crusader Strikes. No thanks.

 

Loeff

That does sound strong. It also sounds impossible. Hunters can't have scatter and silence and Wyvern.

I've said it before, but I think it bears repeating, while these proposed changes are nice, they do not help in the areas hunters need. They do not help our lack of burst damage. The do not address the deadzone bug. They do not give us increased survivability. They're token changes, and not even very good ones at that.

For example, it's being reported on the WoW Hunter Forum that the increase to Serpent Sting, Immolation Trap, and Explosive Trap will be 10% of RAP (can anyone confirm this is true?). That would mean, for me, that my sting would go from 660 over 15 sec to 850 over 15sec. The mana cost stays the same at 258 (I have points in Efficency). So, currently, that's 2.55 dmg per mana, and after the change will be 3.29 dmg per mana. I agree. This is a buff.

But, compare to my Steady Shot, which does 538 dmg for only 103 mana. That's 5.22 dmg per mana. Why would I ever use the sting when I get more bang for the buck with Steady? To bring the sting damage up to this level, it would have to do 1347 dmg over 15 sec, which would mean 35% of RAP added. But even then, Steady has a chance to crit, which stings don't, making Steady even more desirable, especially in a PvP situation.

This space for rent.

 

Kaber

This isn't a shaman thread, lets keep that discussion out of here. If we want to discuss snares and their effect on us as a whole, great. But bitching about Frost Shock is not what this thread is here for.

 

Mobil

>>Some kind of cloak of shadows which only removes snares would be useful.

Hm, the beast within?

>>I'm confused as to how you're complaining about the change to Frost Shock without also bringing up hamstring? It's bringing Frost Shock in line with every other slow in the game.

I wish my hamstring did 1k dmg <3

 

Kaber

Not all specs have it, not to mention Beast Mastery is not a PvP spec for many reasons. Plus it is on a 2 minute timer and really does not stop people from sticking in our dead zone. If I were to do nothing but duel 1v1 all day long, I would certainly take Beast Within, because that is the only situation where it is powerful. In arenas, Beast Within is quite lackluster and on too long a cooldown to justify taking it over Scatter shot, silence, or improved stings. BM is a one-trick pony, and once that trick is used it really does not take long to pick that Hunter apart.

If you go to Geekboys what do you see? Beastmastery as the most popular spec (41/20/0). What you dont see is that people 1) respec to MM for arenas and back to BM for raiding, and 2) many dont spend 100g a week to respec to a decent arena spec. 41/20 is a raiding spec, pure and simple, not a PvP spec. All of the top arena hunters who do nothing but arena are 100% MM with extra points in survival.

 

Tammy

Actually I have to disagree. Partially anyway. In my 3v3 team I spec as BM 41/20/0 (not pve spec though ofcourse), I find it much better because as MM you'll get easily snared with 2 dpsers on you. My 3v3 is a 2.2k team so it's not like i'm nubing it as BM in 3v3.

This doesn't mean that MM is not good for 3v3, but I know for a fact that BM is viable in 3v3.

The advantage of BM (besides having a very hard to kill pet) is serpent's swiftness, I literally use my pve steady/auto/kc macro and do very high damage, and it is very rarely interrupted because of the fast cast speed. Between Bestial Wrath, Trinket, Pet Stun, Traps and just good old kiting, it's hard to snare me for long. I run with a resto druid and either a rogue or a mage as the second dps class.

For 2v2 BM is viable if you're in a 2x DPS combo (nelf hunter and a rogue mostly).

I run 2v2 with a paladin so I am specced MM for that. Normally 0/41/20 or 0/42/19. Also 2.2k team.

For 5v5 I agree that MM is better, though I think a Survival/MM (Wyvern/Scatter) build has alot of potential (and even more so in 2.3). Resourcefulness + Clever Traps + Entrapment makes for a very nice combo in 5v5 imho, and you'll still have improved stings and scatter shot. You'll lose silencing shot, barrage/imp barrage and some AP, but you'll gain crits and more frequent traps, and you'll be in more control of the fight imo. But I have yet to test this spec in 5v5.

 

Goreshot

These changes are really...strange. Based on previous experience (i.e. the history of WoW) it would be very difficult to say that the developers actually understand what is wrong with the hunter class. But even if they had an accurate assessment of our glaring weaknesses just in Arena play, I'm not quite sure this is how you address them...

Being forced into a spec isn't something new for any class, so to say that it is an issue with hunters (WHAT DO YOU MEAN I HAVE TO HAVE IMPROVED STINGS??!?!?!?) is sort of besides the point. The main problem with hunters is that they lack the value that another class would bring in an Arena team (I guess we're limiting this discussion to 5v5, right?). This is glaringly obvious in hunter underrepresentation in 5v5 Arena teams. The real question is why?

Although my Arena experience is pitifully low, I would probably point to the following factors based not only on my limited Arena experience, but on my (I would say) rather extensive PvP and dueling experience in WoW in general:

1) Lack of "burst" DPS (Blizzard would call this a "transition to sustained DPS"). With the removal of Aimed Shot from pretty much everyone's toolbars due to its activation of the Auto Shot timer, hunters do not have a "guaranteed pwn" damage skill or combination of skills which they can use to help focus-fire kill targets. They are relegated to spamming shots and hoping for lucky crits.

2) Lack of survivability. Hunters have very little in what I would call the "Get Out of Jail Free" deck of cards. Once an Arena team chooses to focus fire a hunter, he has, for all intents and purposes, nothing he can do about it. Yes, you can spec as BM to become unkiteable for a limited amount of time, but this comes at a huge cost to your utility (no Scatter Shot, no Silencing Shot, no Improved Stings) and is on a comparably very long cooldown timer. Ironically, Survival hunters only have Deterrence (a laughingly bad skill against post-TBC melee classes), and that is if they choose to spend the points in it. The only "real" survivability skills are all passive health increase or damage reduction modifiers, which often come at a huge opportunity cost in relation to the other skills available, particularly if you are going with what is generally accepted as the "best" overall Arena spec - Marksmanship.


3) Lack of overall utility. Currently, hunters bring the following utility-type skills (meaning they serve a purpose beyond simply dealing damage) regardless of spec: Freeze Trap, Frost Trap, Snake Trap, Hunter's Mark, Flare, Scare Beast, Aspect of the Pack, Aspect of the Wild, Track Humanoids, Track Beasts, Track Hidden, Volley, Concussive Shot, Wing Clip, and Viper Sting. This list might "seem" long, but comparatively speaking, it is miniscule. Especially when you really look at this list and tick off exactly how useful, and in which situations, each skill is. Three of them are anti-stealth measures: Flare, Track Hidden, and Hunter's Mark (and Volley - the only times a hunter uses Volley is to break stealth or to kill snakes from an opposing hunter's Snake Trap). Two of them require a significant opportunity cost (Aspect of the Pack, Aspect of the Wild) and are very rarely used either because they aren't worth the other skills (Aspect of the Hawk, Aspect of the Viper, Aspect of the Cheetah, Aspect of the Monkey) or because you would have to be an idiot to use them (Aspect of the Pack?!?!?!). Track Humanoids and Track Beasts are very, very limited in use. Traps, like Aspects, take a huge opportunity cost hit, especially when you consider that dropping a Freeze Trap to stop one target (who can subsequently be dispelled or accidentally hit out of) costs you the chance to drop a Frost or Snake trap for 30 full seconds. Wing Clip has the rather hilarious component of requiring that you be in melee range of your target - the irony being that the only things you want to Wing Clip are exactly those things which you don't want to spend any time in melee range with. Conversely, Concussive Shot can only be fired at targets beyond your deadzone, which is a rather dubious requirement considering that anything which you want to hit with a Concussive Shot will invariably be chasing you and will, more likely than not, be within your minimum range. Viper Sting is useful, but has been significantly nerfed with a 15 second cooldown, and can easily be dispelled unless the target has other poisons continually being applied. Blah Blah Blah.

Long story short - the only real skills we bring are traps and Viper Sting. Marksmanship hunters bring Scatter Shot, Improved Stings, and Silencing Shot (and, if they're smart, Entrapment). Beast Mastery hunters bring a strong pet and the ability to become unkiteable for 18 seconds every two minutes. Survival Hunters bring...umm...Expose Weakness. And Wyvern Sting. /cough Taking a look at the above it's no wonder why Marksmanship has become the spec du jour for Arena play. It's the only spec which even remotely adequately increases a hunter's utility so that he can compare with other classes.


-------------------

These things wouldn't be so bad were it not for the fact that they have a significant synergy with regards to Arena play and how they detrimentally affect hunters. A hunter is more easily killed because he can't get away quickly. There is no skill or combination of skills such as Frost Nova+Blink, Vanish+Shadowstep, Vanish+Sprint, Intervene/Intercept, Psychic Scream, Howl of Terror, Bubble of Hearthstone, Shield Wall, Flimsy Mana Shield, Automatic Root On Anything Attacking You + constant shapeshifting to remove roots/snares, etc. etc. etc. to just GET AWAY or GET THEM OFF and buy even two seconds - hunters require dedicated healing/decursing the entire time. "But Goreshot," you might ask, "what about SHAMAN?!?!? All they have is Earthbind and Frost Shock!" Earthbind is a rough equivalent of Frost Trap, albeit slightly weaker (and I'd argue, just as powerful if used correctly, on a shorter cooldown, and with much lower opportunity cost). Frost Shock? Frost Shock is the bomb diggity. I'm thoroughly convinced that if you gave hunters a shot which was equivalent to Frost Shock, in that it could only be cast within 20+ yards and could be spammed every 6 seconds, it would go a long, long way towards alleviating a good portion of our problems in Arena play. I would gladly trade both Wing Clip and Concussive Shot for Frost Shock. Ask any other good hunter, and they would say the same. And no, hunters would not become invincible gods if we obtained a Frost Shock equivalent. The simple fact of the matter is that <b>we can't do anything in the deadzone</b>. So with Frost Shock, all we would get is some modicum of ability to <b>keep you from doing too much to us while we run the hell away<b>. And that is the essence of how shaman use Frost Shock in Arenas. Except they can still actually do useful things like Purge and drop totems and all that jazz while running away. Which is why it's generally better to bring a shaman instead of a hunter.

But back to what I was saying. Because hunters can't get away well, we often become focus fire targets, and we often die first without being able to do much of anything. Even if we manage to survive (through a combination of gear, skill, and awesome healing/decursing/support), our damage-dealing capacity is limited. We can't chase stuff while we're attacking. The only direct damage we can do while on the run is Arcane Shot. Auto Shot and Multi Shot require you to stand still for at least 0.5 seconds server time to fire. Steady shot can't even be fired unless: a) we aren't being attacked, and b) we have enough time to actually stand there for 1.5 seconds while it casts. So while we're busy trying to survive (which we're worse at than everyone else), we can't do much of any damage (most especially of the burst variety, where we're already sorely lacking), and we really don't have much utility because everything is on a 20-30 second cooldown timer.

A hunter can spend 1 full minute kiting, and only get two traps, two Scatter Shots, three Silencing Shots, and four Viper Stings off in that span. It may seem like a lot, except when you consider that a Shaman can pump out 10 shocks (Earth/Frost), four Earthbind Totems, 4 Grounding Totems, and as many Purges/Totems/Cure Poison/Cure Disease (if he elects not to use the totem) as he wants in the leftover 26 Global Cooldowns. Did I mention Earth Shield? I could've, but I didn't.

In Arena play, you are basically separated into three classes. Classes that do the hunting, classes that get hunted down, and classes that live long enough not to justify getting hunted down first. Hunters, ironically, don't do enough damage to be in the first group and pale in comparison to other classes in the third group. Really, that leaves them in the second group, along with, uh, warriors in leather. Sorry. I couldn't think of any other class in the game that immediately screams "Kill me first!" in 5vs5 Arena. But maybe I'm wrong?


----------------------------------------------

But yeah, back to those changes. The one I see bringing the most benefit is the change to Arcane Shot. It makes me think that Blizzard is trying to "sidegrade" the Hunter class into extra utility by giving them something from another class with which they're directly competing. Namely, Shaman with Purge. The funny thing is, I'm betting this ability came about when they figured out what it took the rest of us 10 seconds to realize - that a Mortal Strike-like shot would be an unwieldy combination of over- and under-powered, and that it would be too dependent upon how they timed it (cooldown, cast time, etc.) to be properly balanced. I'm betting that rather than do all this work to get a "fix" that at the end of the day really wouldn't do much of anything (any team that wants Mortal Strike will bring a warrior, Rogues can already do almost the same thing and that doesn't prompt anyone to bring them over a warrior), , they decided to throw us another bone in the utility department.

It seems...nice. If I were a betting man, I'd wager that only the good hunters will really make the best use out of this new skill. It requires the ability to not only get away without dying, but to pay attention well enough to know which target you want to hit with an Arcane Shot while you're running around like a headless chicken. Well, Shaman already do it, so I guess hunters will figure it out soon enough. It's not like the smart ones didn't already watch for who to hit with a Silencing/Scatter Shot while on the run.

The change to Wyvern Sting does almost nothing to help make the skill more palatable. It isn't so much the cast time as the idiotically long cooldown which hurts the ability.

I'm guessing the change to Serpent Sting will help us anywhere from a tiny bit to a tremendous amount in the damage department (particularly the damage done while on the run), but that would depend upon the scaling Blizzard decides implements.

Immolation and Explosive Trap? LoL.


I await the inevitable "You have been crit by Wall of Text" replies.

"User is a tremendous douchenozzel"
-Actual EJ Forums feedback concerning Goreshot.

 

pheno

I wondered why they did mention it at all .

- That's why we're warlocks, not lovelylocks! -

 

sargsui

Actually I read that whole thing, Goreshot, and you're correct in many areas. I think some things really need to be tried before we start dropping "lol" prefixes on them however, and hunter traps are one of them.
Yeah, 10% of RAP doesn't seem like it will help, but maybe somehow... just somehow.. that change, in conjunction with the reduction of cooldown and increased damage survival talents, will actually put explosive and immolation trap on the hotbar as decent melee range tools. Could be?

To reply to a previous reply...
You can have scatter and wyvern obviously, the silence I mentioned is from the mage's CS if specced that way.

Hunter "burst", if only just a steady/arc/auto, is comparable to frostmage (fb/lance) or shadowpriest (mb/swd) burst, considering frostbolt is a 2.5 cast. The mage is probably going to land that on a frozen target however while the priest gains the benefit of dots as well so it isn't quite the same. The thing is, you have long range nuking potential, a pet, mana drain, and good cc abilities which have just been made more varied (instant wyvern sting). Scatter is an amazing peel and frosttrap is just good for everyone.
These issues you've listed are all covered by your teammates, more or less.
Earlier in the thread I mentioned rogue/mage/hunter. How anyone could ever stay in your deadzone with those two classes snaring and rooting is beyond me. You all know the hunter class well I imagine, so take these buffs and see what you can do with them in new combinations.
Further tweaking may be needed, but I think these changes are great and I look forward to playing with and against more hunters.

 

Kaber

I would love to see your theorycraft or logs that show auto/steady being equivalent in burst damage to frostbolt/ice-lance or mindblast/shadow word death. Hyperbole is something we generally stay away from around here.

 

Shandara

I have a shadowpriest myself.. auto-steady, even when they crit, do not come close (partly because of armor mitigation, say 1k auto crit, 1.5k steady, a single Mind Blast crit can do more already..)

Problem is, Blizzard must maintaing a careful balance here. In the past many attempts have been made at fan-designing a burst dps shot for our class, but there's always PvE to consider.

And as other's have said I would love to trade in Wing Clip for a ranged slowing effect that deals more damage than my auto-shot

The best idea I've heard has been a sort of reverse intercept or blink like ability and would hardly be extremely overpowered given the fact that most classes (except shamans) already have a means of getting close to us (except classes that don't need to do so of course). Sprint, shadowstep, feral charge, intercept (on a 15sec cooldown even..).. the classes we fear most can get close without a problem. And getting away either means burning a long cooldown (trinket/BW) or relying on specific team setups.

Arena PvP should be more about skilled use of abilities and counter-abilities to gain an upper-hand, not be reduced to requiring Blessing of Freedom + slow trap to be functional.

 

◊ Lord BEEF

I'm not sure giving hunters a snare is really the best way to address the issue, since frost trap is extremely strong as is.

Playing on a 2 warrior 3 healer team, we've gone against a team that had a druid and hunter. If we tried going after the druid, he'd kite our warriors through the frost trap. If we tried going after the hunter, they'd get cycloned and rooted. If we tried going after anyone else we'd have to deal with both.

There are a lot of things they could do to improve hunter viability in arenas, especially smaller arenas. One easy one would be to change hunter's mark to give the full attack power bonus immediately. The incremental boosting was (to my understanding) to prevent hunters doing insane burst immediately in pvp. Since they're somewhat underperforming in pvp currently that could simply be reversed.

They could also make improved wing clip be 100% fully talented and placed on diminishing returns if it's not already.

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