Tammy

1) You keep comparing hunter vs warrior from a 1v1 perspective, so i'll humor you. 1v1 there is absolutely no reason for a hunter to lose in a duel to an equally skilled warrior. And yes I am talking about MM hunter.

Now for arenas, intimidating shout is 3 min c/d, and piercing howl? if you're in range for it to hit you, you're not playing fast enough.

2) I agree that drain mana is OP especially in 2v2 and 3v3. It is the most ridiculously OP ability warlocks have. Forget dots. Forget drain life. Mana drain in conjunction with life tap is what makes locks gods in small arenas.

In 5v5 I actually prefer viper sting because you can use it much more reliably (even if focused), whereas a lock and priest are main targets in 5v5, and therefore will not use mana burn/drain mana to their full effect (not even close).

3) I still find it a completely pointless argument. Mage can nova us, so what? "hunter can viper sting us", same thing. Mages are helpless vs hunters in large scale arenas. Viper owns them more than any other class in the game. So what if you take damage while frozen? That's what frost mages are supposed to do! they freeze, they burst. That's *their* mechanism, we can't just expect to have an ability on a 30 sec cooldown to remove their MAIN and possibly only serious burst sequence when they are focused.

It's back to my original argument. This is a group thing. You are frozen and nuked? scatter the mage before he bursts you and uses counterspell so you can get some safe heals to top your hp. It's not 1v1, stop making it look like it is. Saying that rogues have a "plethora of snare breaks" to counter nova is again, besides the point. We're not rogues, we're not meant to be rogues, rogues have longer cooldowns, we have shorter but less powerful ones. It's totally different. Asking for FD to give snare immunity is essentially getting ourselves a vanish with 30 seconds cooldown (because we all know rogues rarely get to keep the stealth effect from vanish in arena).

But I think my most important point is that teams that focus you, leave themselves exposed severely to our priest mana burning them. At high rated arena hunters are barely focused actually.

 

Grogzor

Are you trying to say that Hunters are fine in arena and the only reason they are underrepresented is due to Hunters and their teams needing to "Learn 2 Play"?

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Kaber

Right, so clearly if you disagree with an argument it must belong on the WoW forums. Clearly you are the only Hunter here disagreeing with my summary, so your post must also belong there. See what I did there? The entire premise of a statement like that is silly and brings nothing to the discussion, I would appreciate it if you did not make wild accusations.

Actually, scatter shot lasts for a mere 4 seconds. That does not buy you enough time to get back to range with Hamstring or piercing howl up even if you wing clip him. If you drop a trap and attempt to make him walk over it, he will dance around it or if you stand on it his melee range is slightly greater than the trap's range, and it will not go off while he beats you to death with your horrible defenses. I'm sure you are aware of how stupid it is to use Freezing traps in arena anyway given how easily they are dispelled and broken, and if you use Frost trap then Hamstring will keep you in melee range. Should you manage to escape, the 15 second Intercept will screw you over. These are arenas with limited space, you should be quite aware that Hunters need a lot more room to kite than arenas give us, hence the poor performance unless we pair up with a priest, since most people go after them first (or if they go after the hunter their healer gets mana burned to nothing). The only real way to ensure someone gets trapped and stays that way is by using scatter shot to keep him from moving away when you drop it at his feet.

The problem is we can't keep anyone off our asses. As I continually say, this is not relegated to just warriors, nor is it about 1v1 match ups. As I stated in my summary, and you conviently left out of your post, in a duel the Hunter can win if he executes flawlessly. But these are arenas, not duels.


Actually viper sting is a perfectly valid argument. Do you even remember their reason for adding a cooldown? They did not want hunters burning multiple people at once or chain stinging players immediately after a cleanse. If the sting lasts 8 seconds, then why the hell isn't the cooldown 8 seconds? Viper sting is easily dispelled, and we are forced to bring scorpids to help against that, pigeon-holing us into only 1 valid arena pet. This is not a good dichotomy. Saying that my argument opens the door to a nerf is quite possibly the most ridiculous argument I have ever seen. Who would mistake my comment about the cooldown as a request for a nerf? Well, clearly you have, but it makes me wonder about any alterior motives you might have.

I never recommended a 100% stun on concussive shot, nor did I support it. What people recommended was changing it to a root mechanic specifically so that it would not become overpowered. But I do not think changing Concussive shot or wing clip talents will give us what we really need since they are single target snares and single targets are not what we have issues with.

I agree with you on a number of the topics you bring up after that; however, my statement stands: Hunters need some means to break snares. How long of a timer, I do not know, but clearly 2 minutes is far too long or beast mastery would be a much better arena spec, while every 15 seconds would certainly be far too powerful. I don't know if you have noticed, but the strategy everyone uses against hunters is charging our dead zone - after the patch they will just charge our melee zone and put up with our pathetic melee while they burn us down. We do not have the abilities to escape it unless we're in a pure 1v1 duel and have lots of open space. Clearly we need something, otherwise we would not be sitting in last place in every single arena bracket. You have a priest partner and run a mana burning 2v2, congratulations on using in the only viable setup. The problem with that is you are holding your priest back. Not because I believe you are a poor player, but because he could pair with a rogue or warlock and have a much more powerful combination.


Mana drain a mage? Yeah, I don't think so. He will root/snare and stay in your dead zone. You would be lucky to get 1 sting off on him, and lets not forget that mages can Evocate. If you are mana draining a mage you have a priest dispelling everything on you and HE is the one doing most of the draining. Viper sting is just along for the ride since it is 1/10th as effective. I can rip apart newbish mages all day long, but they have the tools to beat us just as much as we can beat them and a good one can definitely kill a hunter, plus they have a means for escaping focus fire with root, blink, iceblock, and a CCing pet. I, for one, would much rather bring a Mage into my 5v5 than a Hunter.

The difference is that you need a specific team setup to support you and you alone. Mages work in multiple setups because they can escape things on their own. Warriors are hardy and can drop defensive stance/intercept out of a focus fire. Rogues can CloS and vanish or hit evasion, or sprint... the list goes on for most classes. So yes, you can run 1 setup where everyone has to play for the Hunter and baby him along, or you can force hunters into teams where only 1 partner is actually viable in lower brackets (priest), but how does that help our pitiful numbers?

As I said, a number of our cooldowns being adjusted slightly would not only be an easy solution, but it could be exactly what we need. And you should note that I did not specifically say by how much because I really could not tell you exactly what would be balanced. I dont think we should have a 15 second scatter shot, but who the hell would it hurt for our traps to go from 30 seconds to 20 or 25? Why would it be horrible if Beast Within got changed to a 9 second CC immunity usable once per minute instead of 18 seconds every 2?

You basically said I was "QQing" and then agreed at the end of your post that a number of cooldowns should be changed. I really do not understand your reasoning. Your argument seems to be "well it would be very easy to overpower Hunters if we gave them too much." Yeah, I think we all know that, and no one is asking to have the world dropped in our laps. We need something, and I personally think messing with our timers could do a lot of good where we need it.


edit: multi-quotes are an infraction - fixed.

 

Tammy

No, I specifically said hunters are the least represented class in arenas at the moment, but that many of these suggestions will overpower them. The deadzone removal would actually solve our problems versus classes that try to run to our melee. How often did you try to fire a concussive shot on a rogue to keep him away but he was already in your deadzone? happens alot to me. In 2v2 (and 3v3 to some degree) arcane shot dispel is gonna make us absolutely awesome, and the new aimed shot has it's uses (5v5 obviously for a coordinated burst sequence on someone, or 2v2 with a druid - cyclone a wounded target + aimed).

 

Tammy

lol, if you read my first paragraph you'll notice it's implied that the overpowered "solutions" belong to the wow forums, not the summary. If you found that offensive, I apologize.

Scatter shot definitely buys enough time to get in range. Wingclip him first, then he is snared for about 5 seconds after scatter breaks, 1 second before wingclip is gone, fire concussive. It's that easy. I ALWAYS get out of warrior range with scatter shot. We HAVE the ability to get out of a warrior's range every 30 seconds with scatter shot, that means every 2nd intercept we can get out of his melee with scatter if we choose to.

Not to mention next patch hamstring is reduced to 10 second duration, it will be alot easier to handle it.

I agree that freezing trap is usually not the best choice if the enemy team can dispel it. But if they can't (in 2v2 or 3v3) it's a great asset to use.

I don't remember the last time I used scatter + trap at the same target. Was never necessary. They almost always enter the traps and I am playing at the 2.3k brackets. It is human nature to remember the times when people danced around your trap, and not the times when it worked successfully. As a Backgammon teacher, I have the same experience, people always remember the times when they rolled 6/6 with the pair of dice, but no one can point at a time when he rolled a 4/2 for example, even though statistically it will happen twice more often. Ironically people will remember the 'odd' and more 'unique' things that happen and give them a higher weight than they deserve. Warriors almost ALWAYS fall into the trap. I am not kidding. The only class that can reliably see traps fast enough to avoid triggering them are rogues.

It also depends how you use your traps, if you apply them preemptively the chance they'll be detected is even lower, but it is low as it is.


I have no alterior motives, nor did I say that your argument opens the door to a nerf. You are completely twisting what I said. I was pointing out the flaw in your logic. I'll try to make it more clear this time:

Current viper sting, is 15 sec c/d and 8 sec duration.
A 15 sec c/d 15 sec duration viper sting is clearly weaker.
Your argument for buffing the current viper sting is "the duration is 8 seconds, why should the cooldown be 15 seconds?".
This argument doesn't work for an even weaker version of viper sting. Yet that version is more deserving of a buff than the current version.
Therefore, there is a logic flaw. The argument has no merit at all. You can argue that a 15 sec cooldown is too long, but NOT because the duration is 8 seconds, the duration of the ability has NOTHING to do with the cooldown, nothing.

MS has 10 sec duration, and 6 second cooldown. Traps have 10 sec duration and 30 second cooldown. The cooldown is defined by how powerful the ability is (in blizzard's estimate) and NOT by it's duration.

I hope I was more clear now.

To answer the question in your last post, about why isn't the cooldown 8 seconds. It would effectively nearly double our mana draining capabilities. Apparently this is where Blizzard wanted us as far as mana draining goes.



When did I say you said it? I wasn't even replying to you specifically, nor did I quote your post. I was replying to all the overpowered suggestions that were thrown out here.



Just because 2 minutes isn't enough for BM, doesn't mean it's not good enough with a MM spec. A MM/SV hunter has access to a variety of abilities that could be "filler" while his 2 min cooldown is running.

And yes, clearly we need something, and clearly we're already getting something. If it turns out that it's not enough (and that very well may be the case), we'll get more.

I don't have a priest in my 2v2 nor do I have one in my 3v3. I only have one in my newly formed 5v5 which has played only 23 games so far in one day. My 2v2 partner is a paladin. We are 2.3k and after patch 2.3 we'll try to get a higher rating. In 3v3 I play with a druid/rogue, reached 2250 on our 3rd week of playing. Hunter/Priest is not the only viable combo for smaller arenas, though it's probably the most common one among the viable combos.



In a traditional 2345 setup, mage is better I agree. But in some setups hunters are better (lock/priest/pala/warrior/hunter being the most common one). It's really not that hard to viper sting a mage, not at all. Even with the current DZ I do it all the time. After the DZ removal it's going to be so much easier.


Teammates are supposed to support eachother. Throughout this thread, people have used examples like "if a warrior and a mage are snaring me there is no chance i'll get out". Well ofcourse there is no chance! they are two players, you are one. Your teammates need to help you along. If you call that babying, you are sorely mistaken. Hunters also "baby" other classes. I can't count the number of times I saved my druid with scatter or wingclip or frost trap or freezing trap, and druids are the class with the most mobility in the game. But when they get focused, they NEED help from their teammates just like anyone else. A mage cannot and will not survive more than 1 class without some assistance. He can for a bit, but mages have those tools because they are the squishiest target in the game. You can force them to iceblock so easily just by nuking them with 2 players. That's how fragile they are.

I agree that some cooldown changing might be decent. Deterrence in particular and possibly traps (via 4/5 bonus perhaps). My guess is that this will be the next step in patch 2.4 if hunters don't prove themselves in S3 with the new changes.

 

Tammy

By the way, I fully agree that being forced down to a single pet type is awful game design. From past experience, this is something Blizzard is unhappy about. The problem is how to fix it without hurting the class. Some obvious solutions, all with a flaw (some more than others), are:

1) Remove scorpid sting ability or nerf it so it doesn't stack. The problem with this solution is that it's also a hunter nerf, and that's the last thing Blizzard want at the moment.
2) Make viper sting undispellable, thus making the use of scorpid null and void. The problem with this solution is that it would make hunters OP.

Those are the extremes, inbetween solutions can include something like:

3) Remove scorpid poison, but adjust the % of dispel resist from improved stings so it ends up at about similar end result. For example, right now the chance to dispel a sting is 35% (it's 50/50 between scorpid sting and viper sting, and then the viper sting has 30% resist to dispels). Therefore you can buff improved stings to 65% resist rate. The problem with this solution is that it will still require less mana to dispel viper sting now (because the cleanser doesn't waste mana constantly on removing scorpid poison off himself), thus resulting in somewhat of a nerf to hunters. Another problem with this solution is that it only affects MM hunters, thus nerfing BM hunters significantly.

4) Nerf scorpid sting so it doesn't stack and adjust the dispel resist from improved stings so it evens out. This is possibly the best solution thus far, but it still hurts BM hunters and it's still an overall nerf to hunters due to less mana wasted by the cleanser.

However, BM is not the standard pvp spec, and before balancing all specs, you need to balance all classes by giving them atleast 1 viable spec for arena. Therefore, ignoring BM for the moment, the following solution could work without nerfing MM/SV hunters, but allowing them a variety of pets:

5) Remove scorpid sting and adjust the dispel resist on viper sting so it becomes harder to cleanse viper than before, but the overall mana spent on cleansing it and/or being drained will be equal to the current situation. This solution can work pretty well imo and will be viable to MM/SV hunters. This way MM/SV hunters' mana draining capabilities will be unharmed and we'll be able to use a variety of pets. It will actually be a small buff since other pets will do higher dps.

If they address this issue, they should also address snakes (the pet, not the trap), who also use a poison.

But then again, we all know pets need a complete revamp, their lack of variety and unique abilities is just sad.

 

Nac

Tammy... I dont care who you are, but you will not get out of a warriors intercept range with only using scatter shot, because there is no reason why the warrior would not have already hamstrung you.


Even if he didn't hamstring you, there is no way your running 30 yards in 4 seconds to get out of intercept range.



The problem is that we have to use multiple cooldowns to get to range, and even then its not guaranteed. Any smart player can easily avoid traps, meaning u have to use scatter shot to trap him, and because they have linked DR's, that traps only going to last 7.5 seconds. If ur hamstrung your not running 20 yards in 7.5 seconds, and if you trinket and to get to range, the arena is small enough that there is no way u will avoid the warrior for long.




We really do need deterrence changed to ave an added snare/slow removal + immunity, plus possible short term speed increase on a 30 second cooldown, so we are gauaranteed range once every second intercept.





Edit: Making viper sting undispellable would not make hunters overpowered in the slightest.

Unlinking it from the imp stings talent ( and therefore making the talent worthless.. which is fine, because you have to sacrifice dps to get it), would mean that it would drain slightly less, but it would atleast be guaranteed.

IMO, playing a hunter relies so much on the other team making mistakes or not... its very hard to win on skill alone, as you almost have to rely on the other team to mess up, one way or another. Maybe its just me, but it seems every game we win, we could always think of something that the other team could have done to easily shut us down completely.

 

Tammy

I never said i'll get out of his intercept range with scatter. But i'll get out of his melee and start dealing dps to him, by the time his next intercept is ready, my trap will be ready.

And yes, ofcourse he hamstrings me, but I wingclip him before scattering, he'll have about 5 seconds of wingclip on him, followed by 4 seconds of concussive shot.

I did about 30 duels vs 2 warriors not long ago, one of them (MS Sword spec) in a 2250 5v5 team and the other one (MS Mace) being arguably the best warrior on our server. It is EASY to beat a warrior 1v1 if you play it right. There was nothing they could do (and they tried, they even taunted my pet to break traps etc, they played VERY well), and I didn't even place a trap prior to the duel. Some of the fights I didn't need to use the trinket even.

You just need to play it smart. Rotate scatter shot and trap to counter each intercept (place trap before the intercept if possible), and outrange their intercept. Once you're out of intercept range, they are taking heavy damage and there is nothing they can do until you run out of duel area, that's when you trap them in a new trap, and begin kiting them the other side until they're dead.

I have improved wingclip though, that talent rocks against melee and was quite helpful in those duels.

In arena it is different because the place is smaller, has LoS objects and they have a healer, so attacking them gains little and gives them rage while draining your mana. However, in a duel, MM hunter can and should beat a warrior.

Deterrence with an added snare/slow removal + immunity + movement speed on a 30 second cooldown? are you serious? this is downright overpowered, it's not even funny how powerful this would be versus, well, anyone! Such an ability would literally make rogues/warriors unable to touch us, would nullify any nova+shatter combo a mage could hope to achieve against us, would make it impossible for shamans to catch up with us, etc etc. This is way, way too good of an ability.

I think this is what's bothering me. Some (and I emphasize some) of the suggestions here are asking for too much, completely ignoring other class' mechanics and needs. You claim you want balance but suggest completely and utterly imbalanced abilities.

 

Grogzor

I wouldn't call something overpowered just because you don't understand how it would currently affect the game. First off, Blizzard balances arena around 5v5 and that is what they have said in the past. Second, the best idea for an ability to do this that I have heard is a Cloak of Shadows for hunters that works on Slows and Immobilizes and lasts a few seconds. Every hunter gets it and it may or may not invoke The Beast Within cooldown.

This ability wouldn't protect you against Fear, Stuns, Charms or Disorients so how can you say it's overpowered? Even with a 30 second cooldown.

Warrior -> Intercept, Hamstring
Hunter -> Wing Clip, HvCloS, Hunter Tries to Run out of Melee
Paladin -> Bam, 6 Second Stun!

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Enova

The idea itself is enough to cause a lot of people grief, much like Cloak of Shadows has caused endless whining, even though it's quite needed, from a hunter's point of view.
I haven't even bothered playing a single week this season, but as far as i could tell in season one, once the team opponent team focused on me, i was pretty much dead meat, because there's simply no way to get out, after the trinket and Deterrence/TBW was burnt. Now, the 2.3 changes are here, and none of these seem to approach this issue. The MS effect was better on arcane shot, in my humble opinion, and the dispel on viper sting. Aimed shot is still too cumbersome to use in most PVP situations (heck, even in WSG you're better off using a steady + autoshot + arcane).

And, now, there's a new change coming in 2.3 (yes, i'm talking about the Volley graphics) that gave me an idea... There are still spells we have no use for; can't they add any utility to those spells? Volley can get an AOE slowing effect, maybe (heck, even if it required improved barrage, it would still be okay); deterrence, as has been said, could at least grant immunity to some impairing/incapacitating effects; Hunter's mark could decrease the chance of that target immobilizing you, etc.

But, to be honest, i'm quite skeptical about the hunter situation in 2.3. Who knows, MAYBE, there's something we're overlooking, but i join the other hunters in not being impressed. But it's a step in the right direction, and i'm actually going to go back in the PVP business now...

Guilty as charged ^

 

diotox

I'd just like to throw this in there since while it has been mentioned, I think it deserves more emphasis. The duration on hamstring in 2.3 will be 10 seconds - that's going to be a very significant change in the warrior vs. hunter range game. One thing to note about hamstringing a hunter is that it isn't exactly what I would call cut and dry. Hunters sit around 18-20% combined dodge+parry chance(not counting aspect of the monkey, I know that is a much maligned ability, but it is very relevant here), surefooted is 15% to outright resist hamstring, and you could potentially add in the surefooted boot enchant on top of all that as well. It often takes several GCDs of hamstrings to actually land it on a hunter. The big edge a warrior has currently is the fact that hamstring is 15 seconds, and intercept cooldown is 15 seconds, meaning we can have intercept stun shutoff the dodge/parry checks each time, making it much easier to actually land that hamstring. A 10 second hamstring means we will have to be refreshing it through dodge/parry checks much more frequently, which will lead to noticeably more times when hamstring will fall off the hunter and he gets away from the wingclipped/frost trapped/entrapped warrior.

A 30 second CD snare breaking ability would mean a hunter could keep a warrior at range indefinitely. Are we going for balance, or are we just trying to take turns giving each side too much of an edge?

 

Loshiis

Tammy, I'm not sure about your battlegroup, but I know if I lay a trap on someone and they aren't already disoriented/immobilized/stunned/CCed, they will be out of it before it triggers. Then I'm left with a trap sitting there, which I can try to kite around, but they're watching it and just running around it...and during that time they're in my deadzone so I can't exactly shoot them.

Then, you're saying a scatter shot is always enough to get out of range of a Warrior? Are you kidding? Warrior intercepts, he hamstrings, you wing clip, you scatter shot, you have 4 seconds to get 10 yards away at 40% movement speed. If you don't, piercing howl, and then by the time you finally get out of piercing howl spam (if ever) intercept is back up. I'm not sure if you're playing against poor warriors or what. :\

Edit: Diotox, to parry/dodge we must be facing you. During intercept we're also stunned -> no dodge/parry. Also, it's fairly simple to get behind a target who is trying to run away. If, however, I do know Scatter is coming up soon, I will hit deterrence and try and stay facing a Warrior until Scatter comes back up.

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Grogzor

As we are a Ranged Class that has to be at range to stay effective, I would prefer that Hunters were able to do it rather easily and force the other players to have to get us into melee.

Right now, we are doing all the work to stay in ranged whereas they don't really do much to keep us in melee.

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Tammy

I am not facing bad warriors. My battlegroup is considered one of the most competitive on europe (Blackout).

It's really simple. Wingclip, if improved wingclip procced, good, you just saved a scatter shot, move to range and pew pew. If it didn't proc, you can move to 3 yards range (or so) then scatter, by the time it wears off you're kiting. 1 second before wingclip wears off, concussive shot him. This sequence effectively gives a 10 second snare AFTER scatter shot broke. Then you lay a trap before he intercepts and he intercepts straight into it (make sure to turn off autoattack at this point so you don't break your own trap).

The key here is the timing of our cooldowns. Cooldown management is such a huge factor for rogues, every good rogue knows this. I think hunters aren't used to this concept yet because our abilities are on a much shorter cooldown than rogues', but in warrior duels it plays a really big factor.

Another important reason why this works (scattering and getting to 10+ yard range) is the kiting method. If you move with your back to the warrior, and do jumpshots everytime you want to shoot, you will lose some of your speed, that's how it is. If one person is running in a straight line, and another person is running in that same line doing jumpshots, the latter will fall behind. This is something I tested at level 60 so I can't vouch for it now with 100% certainty, but I am pretty sure it hasn't changed at all.

What this means is that strafe kiting is significantly better, you move at full speed while maintaining all your instant shots (arcane, scorpid sting, concussive) and can easily stop to cast multishots/autos.

The tools are there, we can beat warriors 1v1. Escaping them in arena is a different matter though, because traps could be cleansed, and they might have BoF. But arenas are a different ballgame.

I think the DZ removal has great potential though, quite often I'd manage to get range from a melee class only to be stuck in the deadzone, unable to fire that crucial concussive shot right before my wingclip is fading. Now it's gonna change.

 

Nac

Why are you talking about duels?



And secondly... u just proved my point...you wont get out of his intercept range.. meaning u can only do damage to him for maybe 2-3 seconds, and then he intercepts you,, hamstrings u, and then does damage for 30+seconds.

You keep saying stuff like " well where are your team mates in all of this?" , well where is his teammate? A freezing trap wont stick if the healer is quick on the dispel, and a frost trap will be intercepted out of ( if the snare doesnt proc fast enough) or trinketed/bofed out of or if he just avoids it all together.. which is why scattershot is needed at the same time as traps.


A 3 second in range/ 30 seconds in melee ratio or whatever you want to call it is not equal. We really do need a snare version of CloS so we can gaurantee to get to range every 30 seconds for preferably 15 or so seconds until the warrior intercepts again... ITs dumb that we have to rely on the warrior being bad to even get out of intercept range, because a perfectly played warrior will never let u out of intercept range.



Edit: Not to make generalizations... but im seriously beginning to doubt that quality of some of the warriors on a good chunk of EU servers/battlegroups. I have seen some very awkward, yet successful 2v2 combos on EU servers that would never be allowed to work on any of the NA battlegroups.

 

Loshiis

How do you plan to get away with only improved wing clip? ...I mean, really. Piercing Howl? Intimidating Shout? Hell, the Warrior can also proc improved hamstring on *you*. Some of the methods you describe for getting range simply involve a really poor opponent.

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Tammy

Someone mentioned scatter+trap to escape from a warrior, I have never used scatter+trap in arena nor have I ever seen a hunter do that, it's just a waste of cooldowns because it will be dispelled. In a duel i've seen some people use this (bad) tactic.

You can learn alot by examining duels and then seeing how they compare to arena. Everything I said is valid in arena if the opposing team cannot dispel trap. The differences are that someone else might walk into your trap, or that someone else might snare you after you trapped the warrior. If you deal with those two issues (with help of your teammates), it's exactly the same as in a duel.

The reason scatter+trap was created originally was because you had to FD to use a trap. This was done ALOT more easily with your target disoriented so it wouldn't put you back in combat while your GCD is running after you used FD.

Right now it's a bad play imo to use on a regular basis. Sometimes it's good, but usually it's a waste of 2 abilities when you could use one.

I didn't prove your argument at all. Read what I said. You move away from him, kite/dps him a bit, then he intercepts into your new trap (or you put one after he intercepts). How can I be more clear, this is exactly what I said and yet it's ignored completely.

There is nothing a warrior can do to stop you from getting out of intercept range provided there is enough kiting room. Nothing. In arena though, there is no unlimited space and eventually he'll find a way to intercept, WHICH IS FINE. It makes no sense for us to be able to kite a warrior indefinitely, this isn't world pvp. I think the arena size is almost "balanced" in terms of kiting vs closing in on melee. I think it should be a little bigger than it is now.

About frost trap, trinket is practically useless against it (you get instantly snared again), and BoF can be dispelled by hunters in the next patch (maybe next week!), so that would help a bit. The only uncounterable instant way out is intercept.

I think the future of hunters will be diverse, we'll see successful hunters both in 5v5 and 2v2/3v3. In 5v5 due to the new MS effect. This opens up alot of new possibilities, especially because focusing a hunter in 5v5 equals an immediate loss to the opposing team, which means we will be able to cast the aimed shot most of the fights. The best tactic against a hunter is probably to split your dps, have 1 person on the hunter and 1 or 2 on their priest. I know alot of teams that are thinking of getting a hunter for S3.

In 2v2/3v3, hunters will become a very competitive class due to the new arcane shot. I can't tell you how much I want to test this baby in S3. Warrior/Paladin will probably be the easiest matchup for us ever due to the new arcane shot. It's going to be amazing dispelling things like fel armor, hots, bof/bop and crucial things like inner focus and maybe even fel domination if lucky

Actually, now that I think of it, you don't even need to be lucky for it, just need good latency. Strip the lock of buffs, then when he casts fel domination scatter him. I've seen a rogue video (Neilyo9) where he stuns the lock just before he finishes casting the new summon, then stalls him until the buff wears off with blind. But for us it will be alot easier. Strip the lock of buffs, scatter at the right time, arcane shot, and it's bye bye fel domination.

 

Kaber

Precisely. I set off maybe 1 in 5 traps when I'm playing my druid just because I was not paying attention. The rest I can skirt around unless I get hit by scatter shot or have some other form of CC keeping me from moving. I met up with a gladiator warrior in Arathi Basin the night I posted this and we traded killing each other most of the match. If all of my cooldowns were not up, or he got a trinket at a key time he won. If I kept range and executed my kite perfectly I won. Every time I dropped a trap he danced around it despite me masking the drop by moving, and even with a wing clip he could move out of it's range while I was hamstrung. My only recourse was a 2 minute cooldown trinket that generally ended with me being immediately re-snared or intercepted. Often during our fights extra people would show up on both sides, and once that happened it always went in the warrior's favor. Hunters do not mesh nearly as well with other classes because there is always someone who can do our job better than us, and because of that they bring more strength to the team. You're right, Tammy, it is a team game and we all help each other. The problem comes when Hunter abilities help others less, while we require a lot more help in return than most other classes. A snare break would change that, and it would certainly require a lot of balancing to keep hunters from becoming over powered, but that does not mean it should not be explored.

 

Kullulu

Are warriors not disarming you to prevent wingclip/scattershot kite?

 

Nac

What about the priest that a large majority of hunters 2v2 with? Why isnt that dispel helping?

What about the shaman/priest in 5v5? If their dispels arent helping, or already dispelling enough, how is one extra dispel every 6 seconds going to possibly help?



Im still seriously doubting the skill of the warriors you play, if they cannot avoid your traps, completely un scattered. Your logic of SCatter-> TRap being outdated because we used to have to FD->trap is flawed as well, considering the time it takes to FD-trap is still short then the 2 second arming time on our current traps. Currently our opponents have .5 seconds longer to move out of the way so they dont get trapped.


His intercept cooldown is 15 seconds shorter then your trap cooldown, ( and if he doesnt have a 15 second intercept, then that just further proves my point that the warriors you play must be bad).

You trap, he trinkets it, hamstrings u before u even get out of melee range, so u scatter ( which apparently gives u enough time to get out of intercept range if ur hamstrung), he intercepts, and then what do u do for the next 20 seconds?

Once ur trap comes back up his intercept will already be off cooldown, and half the time he wont even need it because he can dance around it. There is nothing a hunter can do to a skilled warrior in an arena where you cannot run in a straight line for minutes straight.





The people looking to replace ms warriors with hunters are dumb, and the people looking to pick hunters to play along with ms warriors are also dumb. There is no reason to have a healing reduction that cannot be kept up indefinitely, especially one that requires u to be standing still, for 3.5 seconds, and can be cancelled by simply moving too close.



2600 Hunter 5on5, Sejta from Knockout


IS a video of some 2600 rated 5v5 hunter ( yes i know im talking more 2v2 but this still proves my point).


For the entire first half of the movie, not once did the hunter get focus fired, not once did they even attempt to kill his pet, and not once did they mana burn focus him. The teams they play do nothing to exploit any of the major weaknesses of bring a hunter, and that is the ONLY reason that hunter is so successful.

Hell, there were certain times when the warrior that he trapped, wasnt even dispelled. The trap was allowed to last full duration, and the paladin was standing right next to him. This is the top 10 teams in that battlegroup we are talking about, and they dont even dispel the cc on the warrior? From the looks of his "arena master" type addon, not one person on the other team needed immediate healing anyway.




I dont see any reason why focusing a warrior, rather then a hunter, when you dont play a 4 dps team is beneficial at all, yet it happens multiple times.



Maybe if the teams i played in 5v5 were this "smart" id be on a 2600 rated 5v5 team too.

 

Nadagast

I love the people bitching about Viper Sting. Viper Sting is one of the best abilities in arenas right now, it doesn't need a buff

 

Grogzor

I don't really understand, how is an ability that the Paladin you run with can Purify and then you don't have to worry about it at all for the next 14 seconds one of the greatest abilities in arena?

But when it comes time for me to remove your wings, and you, you must try to fly...

Click Here to see what makes me tic(k).

What Are You Going to Roll for Warhammer Online?

 

Lysander1

-Warrior Intercepts, 3 second stun (intercept has 12 seconds left on cooldown), Hamstrings you.
-You Wing Clip, 1.5 second global cooldown (intercept has 10.5 seconds left on cooldown), you move away and gain ~2 yards.
-You continue moving away for .5 more seconds (intercept has 10 seconds left on cooldown, Wing Clip lasts for 8 more seconds, Hamstring lasts for 10 more seconds) and are 3 yards away.
-You Scattershot, 1.5 second global cooldown (intercept has 8.5 seconds left on cooldown, Wing Clip lasts for 6.5 more seconds, Hamstring lasts for 8.5 more seconds, Scattershot has 28.5 seconds left on cooldown), you move away and gain ~2 yards. Scattershot lasts for 2.5 more seconds.
-You are now 5 yards away from your target and can no longer Wing Clip him. If he didn't Hamstring you again while you were running away, Hamstring lasts 8.5 more seconds, Wing Clip lasts 6.5, and 8.5 seconds to next Intercept.
-Continue running away for 2.5 more seconds. On Live, you cannot shoot during this time. Lets say you gain 4 yards. You are now 9 yards away from the Warrior, Intercept has 5 seconds left on cooldown, Wing Clip lasts 4 more seconds, Hamstring lasts 6 or more seconds, Scattershot has 26 seconds left on cooldown)
-Attack Warrior for 4 seconds and lay trap, Wing Clip fades, Warrior catches up to you (because Hamstring lasts longer) and hits trap. Trinkets, continues to beat on you, has Intercept up once Scattershot comes back, your trap still has long cooldown, what do you do?

 

Darkmantle

The number of times I hear palaidns bitching about cleanse resists trying to get rid of it has to be seen to be believed.

Judging the quality of a team based on the video you see is hard. You miss out on the games where they did focus the hunter and it just didn't work. Hunters are different to the other 2 mana draining classes because they can drain fully even under focus fire. All they need is their target in los and a free GCD and they can potentially drain 1778 mana even under focus. If you focus the hunter and you don't do enough damage the teams priest is free to mana burna and their warlock is free to fear/mana burn neither of which is fun.

Attacking warriros with 3 dps teams is a perfectly valid tactic as long as it is done at the right time. It's especially good for getting them to panic switching to defensive stance and lose MS on their target. In the rag dolled video after rag dolled mixed it up and killed CPC's paladin they started going for CPC's priest only to have their warrior focused and come within 800 health of dying. Not killing scorpids though is just stupid.

 

Kaber

Actually in order to mana drain someone we need our scorpid stacking poison on him as well, so if whoever we are trying to drain runs into our dead zone or out of LoS we have to wait for our pet to go get at least 1-2 poisons up before trying to drain a new person. Mana burn is far better than Viper sting, and the warlock version that follows people out of LoS is as well. Big deal, the paladin gets resisted 30% of the time. Focus fire the Hunter and he never has to worry about it. You should see how often Hunters scream over having their Viper sting cleansed first despite a 5 stack of poison and the talent that makes it tougher to remove. The pendulum swings both ways, and given how low 30% is in the grand scheme of things it favors the classes that can cleanse because it is easier to remove than it is to apply and keep it there. As a druid I get to fire and forget a poison cleanse that removes viper sting along with the entire scorpid poison stack in one cast. Whenever I see a Hunter on the other team, my immediate response is "easy points." Don't try and tell me you think any differently as a warlock.

If viper sting was the best mana drain, as you seem to be suggesting, then Hunters would certainly would not be in last place for every single bracket. I find it interesting that it is mostly warlocks telling Hunters that we are fine.