By the way, I fully agree that being forced down to a single pet type is awful game design. From past experience, this is something Blizzard is unhappy about. The problem is how to fix it without hurting the class. Some obvious solutions, all with a flaw (some more than others), are:

1) Remove scorpid sting ability or nerf it so it doesn't stack. The problem with this solution is that it's also a hunter nerf, and that's the last thing Blizzard want at the moment.
2) Make viper sting undispellable, thus making the use of scorpid null and void. The problem with this solution is that it would make hunters OP.

Those are the extremes, inbetween solutions can include something like:

3) Remove scorpid poison, but adjust the % of dispel resist from improved stings so it ends up at about similar end result. For example, right now the chance to dispel a sting is 35% (it's 50/50 between scorpid sting and viper sting, and then the viper sting has 30% resist to dispels). Therefore you can buff improved stings to 65% resist rate. The problem with this solution is that it will still require less mana to dispel viper sting now (because the cleanser doesn't waste mana constantly on removing scorpid poison off himself), thus resulting in somewhat of a nerf to hunters. Another problem with this solution is that it only affects MM hunters, thus nerfing BM hunters significantly.

4) Nerf scorpid sting so it doesn't stack and adjust the dispel resist from improved stings so it evens out. This is possibly the best solution thus far, but it still hurts BM hunters and it's still an overall nerf to hunters due to less mana wasted by the cleanser.

However, BM is not the standard pvp spec, and before balancing all specs, you need to balance all classes by giving them atleast 1 viable spec for arena. Therefore, ignoring BM for the moment, the following solution could work without nerfing MM/SV hunters, but allowing them a variety of pets:

5) Remove scorpid sting and adjust the dispel resist on viper sting so it becomes harder to cleanse viper than before, but the overall mana spent on cleansing it and/or being drained will be equal to the current situation. This solution can work pretty well imo and will be viable to MM/SV hunters. This way MM/SV hunters' mana draining capabilities will be unharmed and we'll be able to use a variety of pets. It will actually be a small buff since other pets will do higher dps.

If they address this issue, they should also address snakes (the pet, not the trap), who also use a poison.

But then again, we all know pets need a complete revamp, their lack of variety and unique abilities is just sad.

I never said i'll get out of his intercept range with scatter. But i'll get out of his melee and start dealing dps to him, by the time his next intercept is ready, my trap will be ready.

And yes, ofcourse he hamstrings me, but I wingclip him before scattering, he'll have about 5 seconds of wingclip on him, followed by 4 seconds of concussive shot.

I did about 30 duels vs 2 warriors not long ago, one of them (MS Sword spec) in a 2250 5v5 team and the other one (MS Mace) being arguably the best warrior on our server. It is EASY to beat a warrior 1v1 if you play it right. There was nothing they could do (and they tried, they even taunted my pet to break traps etc, they played VERY well), and I didn't even place a trap prior to the duel. Some of the fights I didn't need to use the trinket even.

You just need to play it smart. Rotate scatter shot and trap to counter each intercept (place trap before the intercept if possible), and outrange their intercept. Once you're out of intercept range, they are taking heavy damage and there is nothing they can do until you run out of duel area, that's when you trap them in a new trap, and begin kiting them the other side until they're dead.

I have improved wingclip though, that talent rocks against melee and was quite helpful in those duels.

In arena it is different because the place is smaller, has LoS objects and they have a healer, so attacking them gains little and gives them rage while draining your mana. However, in a duel, MM hunter can and should beat a warrior.

Deterrence with an added snare/slow removal + immunity + movement speed on a 30 second cooldown? are you serious? this is downright overpowered, it's not even funny how powerful this would be versus, well, anyone! Such an ability would literally make rogues/warriors unable to touch us, would nullify any nova+shatter combo a mage could hope to achieve against us, would make it impossible for shamans to catch up with us, etc etc. This is way, way too good of an ability.

I think this is what's bothering me. Some (and I emphasize some) of the suggestions here are asking for too much, completely ignoring other class' mechanics and needs. You claim you want balance but suggest completely and utterly imbalanced abilities.

I wouldn't call something overpowered just because you don't understand how it would currently affect the game. First off, Blizzard balances arena around 5v5 and that is what they have said in the past. Second, the best idea for an ability to do this that I have heard is a Cloak of Shadows for hunters that works on Slows and Immobilizes and lasts a few seconds. Every hunter gets it and it may or may not invoke The Beast Within cooldown.

This ability wouldn't protect you against Fear, Stuns, Charms or Disorients so how can you say it's overpowered? Even with a 30 second cooldown.

Warrior -> Intercept, Hamstring
Hunter -> Wing Clip, HvCloS, Hunter Tries to Run out of Melee
Paladin -> Bam, 6 Second Stun!

The idea itself is enough to cause a lot of people grief, much like Cloak of Shadows has caused endless whining, even though it's quite needed, from a hunter's point of view.
I haven't even bothered playing a single week this season, but as far as i could tell in season one, once the team opponent team focused on me, i was pretty much dead meat, because there's simply no way to get out, after the trinket and Deterrence/TBW was burnt. Now, the 2.3 changes are here, and none of these seem to approach this issue. The MS effect was better on arcane shot, in my humble opinion, and the dispel on viper sting. Aimed shot is still too cumbersome to use in most PVP situations (heck, even in WSG you're better off using a steady + autoshot + arcane).

And, now, there's a new change coming in 2.3 (yes, i'm talking about the Volley graphics) that gave me an idea... There are still spells we have no use for; can't they add any utility to those spells? Volley can get an AOE slowing effect, maybe (heck, even if it required improved barrage, it would still be okay); deterrence, as has been said, could at least grant immunity to some impairing/incapacitating effects; Hunter's mark could decrease the chance of that target immobilizing you, etc.

But, to be honest, i'm quite skeptical about the hunter situation in 2.3. Who knows, MAYBE, there's something we're overlooking, but i join the other hunters in not being impressed. But it's a step in the right direction, and i'm actually going to go back in the PVP business now...

Tammy, I'm not sure about your battlegroup, but I know if I lay a trap on someone and they aren't already disoriented/immobilized/stunned/CCed, they will be out of it before it triggers. Then I'm left with a trap sitting there, which I can try to kite around, but they're watching it and just running around it...and during that time they're in my deadzone so I can't exactly shoot them.

Then, you're saying a scatter shot is always enough to get out of range of a Warrior? Are you kidding? Warrior intercepts, he hamstrings, you wing clip, you scatter shot, you have 4 seconds to get 10 yards away at 40% movement speed. If you don't, piercing howl, and then by the time you finally get out of piercing howl spam (if ever) intercept is back up. I'm not sure if you're playing against poor warriors or what. :\

Edit: Diotox, to parry/dodge we must be facing you. During intercept we're also stunned -> no dodge/parry. Also, it's fairly simple to get behind a target who is trying to run away. If, however, I do know Scatter is coming up soon, I will hit deterrence and try and stay facing a Warrior until Scatter comes back up.

As we are a Ranged Class that has to be at range to stay effective, I would prefer that Hunters were able to do it rather easily and force the other players to have to get us into melee.

Right now, we are doing all the work to stay in ranged whereas they don't really do much to keep us in melee.

I am not facing bad warriors. My battlegroup is considered one of the most competitive on europe (Blackout).

It's really simple. Wingclip, if improved wingclip procced, good, you just saved a scatter shot, move to range and pew pew. If it didn't proc, you can move to 3 yards range (or so) then scatter, by the time it wears off you're kiting. 1 second before wingclip wears off, concussive shot him. This sequence effectively gives a 10 second snare AFTER scatter shot broke. Then you lay a trap before he intercepts and he intercepts straight into it (make sure to turn off autoattack at this point so you don't break your own trap).

The key here is the timing of our cooldowns. Cooldown management is such a huge factor for rogues, every good rogue knows this. I think hunters aren't used to this concept yet because our abilities are on a much shorter cooldown than rogues', but in warrior duels it plays a really big factor.

Another important reason why this works (scattering and getting to 10+ yard range) is the kiting method. If you move with your back to the warrior, and do jumpshots everytime you want to shoot, you will lose some of your speed, that's how it is. If one person is running in a straight line, and another person is running in that same line doing jumpshots, the latter will fall behind. This is something I tested at level 60 so I can't vouch for it now with 100% certainty, but I am pretty sure it hasn't changed at all.

What this means is that strafe kiting is significantly better, you move at full speed while maintaining all your instant shots (arcane, scorpid sting, concussive) and can easily stop to cast multishots/autos.

The tools are there, we can beat warriors 1v1. Escaping them in arena is a different matter though, because traps could be cleansed, and they might have BoF. But arenas are a different ballgame.

I think the DZ removal has great potential though, quite often I'd manage to get range from a melee class only to be stuck in the deadzone, unable to fire that crucial concussive shot right before my wingclip is fading. Now it's gonna change.

How do you plan to get away with only improved wing clip? ...I mean, really. Piercing Howl? Intimidating Shout? Hell, the Warrior can also proc improved hamstring on *you*. Some of the methods you describe for getting range simply involve a really poor opponent.

Someone mentioned scatter+trap to escape from a warrior, I have never used scatter+trap in arena nor have I ever seen a hunter do that, it's just a waste of cooldowns because it will be dispelled. In a duel i've seen some people use this (bad) tactic.

You can learn alot by examining duels and then seeing how they compare to arena. Everything I said is valid in arena if the opposing team cannot dispel trap. The differences are that someone else might walk into your trap, or that someone else might snare you after you trapped the warrior. If you deal with those two issues (with help of your teammates), it's exactly the same as in a duel.

The reason scatter+trap was created originally was because you had to FD to use a trap. This was done ALOT more easily with your target disoriented so it wouldn't put you back in combat while your GCD is running after you used FD.

Right now it's a bad play imo to use on a regular basis. Sometimes it's good, but usually it's a waste of 2 abilities when you could use one.

I didn't prove your argument at all. Read what I said. You move away from him, kite/dps him a bit, then he intercepts into your new trap (or you put one after he intercepts). How can I be more clear, this is exactly what I said and yet it's ignored completely.

There is nothing a warrior can do to stop you from getting out of intercept range provided there is enough kiting room. Nothing. In arena though, there is no unlimited space and eventually he'll find a way to intercept, WHICH IS FINE. It makes no sense for us to be able to kite a warrior indefinitely, this isn't world pvp. I think the arena size is almost "balanced" in terms of kiting vs closing in on melee. I think it should be a little bigger than it is now.

About frost trap, trinket is practically useless against it (you get instantly snared again), and BoF can be dispelled by hunters in the next patch (maybe next week!), so that would help a bit. The only uncounterable instant way out is intercept.

I think the future of hunters will be diverse, we'll see successful hunters both in 5v5 and 2v2/3v3. In 5v5 due to the new MS effect. This opens up alot of new possibilities, especially because focusing a hunter in 5v5 equals an immediate loss to the opposing team, which means we will be able to cast the aimed shot most of the fights. The best tactic against a hunter is probably to split your dps, have 1 person on the hunter and 1 or 2 on their priest. I know alot of teams that are thinking of getting a hunter for S3.

In 2v2/3v3, hunters will become a very competitive class due to the new arcane shot. I can't tell you how much I want to test this baby in S3. Warrior/Paladin will probably be the easiest matchup for us ever due to the new arcane shot. It's going to be amazing dispelling things like fel armor, hots, bof/bop and crucial things like inner focus and maybe even fel domination if lucky

Actually, now that I think of it, you don't even need to be lucky for it, just need good latency. Strip the lock of buffs, then when he casts fel domination scatter him. I've seen a rogue video (Neilyo9) where he stuns the lock just before he finishes casting the new summon, then stalls him until the buff wears off with blind. But for us it will be alot easier. Strip the lock of buffs, scatter at the right time, arcane shot, and it's bye bye fel domination.

Precisely. I set off maybe 1 in 5 traps when I'm playing my druid just because I was not paying attention. The rest I can skirt around unless I get hit by scatter shot or have some other form of CC keeping me from moving. I met up with a gladiator warrior in Arathi Basin the night I posted this and we traded killing each other most of the match. If all of my cooldowns were not up, or he got a trinket at a key time he won. If I kept range and executed my kite perfectly I won. Every time I dropped a trap he danced around it despite me masking the drop by moving, and even with a wing clip he could move out of it's range while I was hamstrung. My only recourse was a 2 minute cooldown trinket that generally ended with me being immediately re-snared or intercepted. Often during our fights extra people would show up on both sides, and once that happened it always went in the warrior's favor. Hunters do not mesh nearly as well with other classes because there is always someone who can do our job better than us, and because of that they bring more strength to the team. You're right, Tammy, it is a team game and we all help each other. The problem comes when Hunter abilities help others less, while we require a lot more help in return than most other classes. A snare break would change that, and it would certainly require a lot of balancing to keep hunters from becoming over powered, but that does not mean it should not be explored.

What about the priest that a large majority of hunters 2v2 with? Why isnt that dispel helping?

What about the shaman/priest in 5v5? If their dispels arent helping, or already dispelling enough, how is one extra dispel every 6 seconds going to possibly help?



Im still seriously doubting the skill of the warriors you play, if they cannot avoid your traps, completely un scattered. Your logic of SCatter-> TRap being outdated because we used to have to FD->trap is flawed as well, considering the time it takes to FD-trap is still short then the 2 second arming time on our current traps. Currently our opponents have .5 seconds longer to move out of the way so they dont get trapped.


His intercept cooldown is 15 seconds shorter then your trap cooldown, ( and if he doesnt have a 15 second intercept, then that just further proves my point that the warriors you play must be bad).

You trap, he trinkets it, hamstrings u before u even get out of melee range, so u scatter ( which apparently gives u enough time to get out of intercept range if ur hamstrung), he intercepts, and then what do u do for the next 20 seconds?

Once ur trap comes back up his intercept will already be off cooldown, and half the time he wont even need it because he can dance around it. There is nothing a hunter can do to a skilled warrior in an arena where you cannot run in a straight line for minutes straight.





The people looking to replace ms warriors with hunters are dumb, and the people looking to pick hunters to play along with ms warriors are also dumb. There is no reason to have a healing reduction that cannot be kept up indefinitely, especially one that requires u to be standing still, for 3.5 seconds, and can be cancelled by simply moving too close.



2600 Hunter 5on5, Sejta from Knockout


IS a video of some 2600 rated 5v5 hunter ( yes i know im talking more 2v2 but this still proves my point).


For the entire first half of the movie, not once did the hunter get focus fired, not once did they even attempt to kill his pet, and not once did they mana burn focus him. The teams they play do nothing to exploit any of the major weaknesses of bring a hunter, and that is the ONLY reason that hunter is so successful.

Hell, there were certain times when the warrior that he trapped, wasnt even dispelled. The trap was allowed to last full duration, and the paladin was standing right next to him. This is the top 10 teams in that battlegroup we are talking about, and they dont even dispel the cc on the warrior? From the looks of his "arena master" type addon, not one person on the other team needed immediate healing anyway.




I dont see any reason why focusing a warrior, rather then a hunter, when you dont play a 4 dps team is beneficial at all, yet it happens multiple times.



Maybe if the teams i played in 5v5 were this "smart" id be on a 2600 rated 5v5 team too.