[Hunter]2.3 Arena changes - Page 8

Modran · 10/18/07, 5:22 AM

Originally Posted by Xavias

Hunter Arena/PvP gear is bad. Plain and simple.

Season 2 Hunter gear has less AP then most level pre 70 blues, and AP is the best Arena damage stat for hunters by far. (way surpassing crit)

[Merciless Gladiator's Chain Armor]
(lvl 68) [Laughing Skull Battle-Harness]

Agreed, I was very dissapointed when I first bought my pieces of s2 gladiator armor and compared them to our t5 set - the AP difference between them was shocking. I didn't feel ripped off or anything, but I thought they'd give us slightly more AP.

Here's another example of something to look at

[Merciless Gladiator's Chain Armor]
[Rift Stalker Hauberk]

Originally Posted by Xavias

Compared to, say, warlock set:
[Merciless Gladiator's Dreadweave Robe]
(lvl 70) [Warp Infused Drape]

Not to mention some of the item budget is assigned to extra armor.

Seems extremely inconsistant.

If I remember correctly, the extra armor doesn't just apply to Warlocks. It's intended give them that extra survivability against physical dps classes in arena... is this where armor penetration plays its "second" or even third role?

Redpath · 10/18/07, 5:26 PM

Yeah it has happened to mage sets as well, I remember mages being concerned as the AC doubled but a lot of the other stats didn't really get a substantial increase. I assume to counter act all the ac penetration on physical DPS sets.

Tammy · 10/18/07, 5:34 PM

Increasing armor and armor penetration is Blizzard's solution to the "too many stats" problem. People were maxed on resilience. People had insane levels of stamina and mana pools were also growing. This creates imbalance issues (high stamina favors non mana classes, high mana makes mana draining harder etc).

This is why the new sets barely gain any resilience or stats. They gain a little dps and a little stamina in a way that cancels out eachother, but the +armor and +armor penetration is a great way for blizzard to allot more stat slots to the items, without doing anything pretty much! My enemy gaining 500 armor while I gain 250 armor penetration is exactly the same as my enemy gaining 250 armor while I gain zero penetration. The only difference is that with scenario #1 more stat slots are wasted, and this is what blizzard want.

So to sum up, casters get armor, physical dps gets armor penetration, more stat slots are spent without really changing much and everyone will still have to get the S3 gear or they'll fall behind on the rat race. GG! :P

Levidian · 10/19/07, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by Lodi

Also, the 4 piece season 3 bonus should be 70% freedom from interruption on shots - the same as the 4pc elemental shaman bonus. Also, I don't think it's likely that concentration aura affects steady shot (though I never tested it).

Aye I suggest shot push back reduction any chance I get when discussion of the 4pc bonus is involved.

COOL DOWN REDUCTION DOES NOTHING when are they going to realize that.

It only benefits you if you can fire multi shot exactly when its up every time.

cast time reduction and push back reduction are what good 4pc bonuses should be focused around.

Having a bonus that effected conc shot isn't a problem its that the bonus DID NOTHING at all. NO ONE ever fired back to back conc shots exactly on cooldown maybe more then once in 500 games. So that set bonus helped you for exactly 1 second out of 500 games. talk about a kick ass return.

If the bonus would have been 10% additional chance to stun or increases the daze duration by X seconds then it may have been a bonus worth having.

Basically instead of buffed the bonus changes NERFED us since we can't stack 2x 35 res anymore and we also have a 4pc bonus that does NOTHING.

erb · 10/19/07, 12:17 PM

Most hunters do agree with you Levi. There is no need to start typing in caps and get angry in general. A push back resist on steady or removing the 0.5 second cast time of multi shot would be a decent bonus, but lets not forget: -1 off MS is light years better then -1 of conc shot, even if it is a lackluster change.

Levidian · 10/19/07, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by erb

Most hunters do agree with you Levi. There is no need to start typing in caps and get angry in general. A push back resist on steady or removing the 0.5 second cast time of multi shot would be a decent bonus, but lets not forget: -1 off MS is light years better then -1 of conc shot, even if it is a lackluster change.

Thats kinda like saying 2 grains of salt on your french fries is better then 1 grain. At the end of the day you still can't taste the salt.

Goreshot · 10/19/07, 1:11 PM

I think what frustrates a lot of hunters right now is that Blizzard is implementing "buffs" which, to us, really don't do much of anything. However, there are enough whiners out there who still believe that hunters are OP based on their own experiences that they are yelling to high heaven about how omgcrazyinsane it is that hunters get a debuffing arcane shot, are losing the deadzone, and are even potentially getting a "Mortal Strike Shot". But in the grand scheme of things, these "buffs" don't really do much to address the things that are really crippling the class in Arena play: 1) Shot mechanic issues, particularly Steady Shot (which is just plain stupid, not only with regards to Arenas), and 2) Focus Fire mitigation. So basically, Blizzard is opting to close the gap in our utility department (which was indeed lacking), which is causing a whinefest even on these boards. But, most hunters would rather they address the "real" concerns first. It's like we're getting all the trouble associated with robbing a bank and we're coming out with a dozen rolls of pennies.

Elendril · 10/19/07, 1:16 PM

Honestly, the proposed deadzone elimination has the potential to make such a huge difference that it's hard to evaluate the impact of it and other changes rolled in together. There is a danger in changing too many factors at once. I'm not sure that 2.3 will be enough to get hunters where they need to be, but I'm optimistic that it will be a solid step in that direction.

dysphoria · 10/19/07, 1:28 PM

Originally Posted by Levidian

Thats kinda like saying 2 grains of salt on your french fries is better then 1 grain. At the end of the day you still can't taste the salt.

French fries are better without salt anyways. Oh yes, I went there.

Honestly, the proposed deadzone elimination has the potential to make such a huge difference that it's hard to evaluate the impact of it and other changes rolled in together. There is a danger in changing too many factors at once. I'm not sure that 2.3 will be enough to get hunters where they need to be, but I'm optimistic that it will be a solid step in that direction.

I really don't think it's the miracle fix many claim it to be. I think LoS and melee being lumped under deadzone make it appear to be this way. I guess time will tell, but I think we've been given nothing substantial to offer our teammates in comparison with the more desirable classes, and this is what needs to change.

Elendril · 10/19/07, 2:10 PM

Originally Posted by dysphoria

I really don't think it's the miracle fix many claim it to be. I think LoS and melee being lumped under deadzone make it appear to be this way. I guess time will tell, but I think we've been given nothing substantial to offer our teammates in comparison with the more desirable classes, and this is what needs to change.

It's not a miracle fix, but it's a huge change to functionality that's hard to evaluate in theory. The implications of such a fundamental change aren't as easy to work out as, say, Arcane Shot gaining a dispel component. The combination of deadzone and LOS made pillar kiting much more of an issue than just LOS, for instance. I agree that we'll still likely play a very niche role on whatever team we end up on - viper sting and frost trap are still the reasons to include a hunter - but we'll potentially be significantly more effective in that role. Even just being able to Arcane Shot a renew or PS:W off a priest who you're mana burning down has the potential to make a significant impact on that sort of strategy.

Levidian · 10/19/07, 5:00 PM

Originally Posted by Elendril

It's not a miracle fix, but it's a huge change to functionality that's hard to evaluate in theory. The implications of such a fundamental change aren't as easy to work out as, say, Arcane Shot gaining a dispel component. The combination of deadzone and LOS made pillar kiting much more of an issue than just LOS, for instance. I agree that we'll still likely play a very niche role on whatever team we end up on - viper sting and frost trap are still the reasons to include a hunter - but we'll potentially be significantly more effective in that role. Even just being able to Arcane Shot a renew or PS:W off a priest who you're mana burning down has the potential to make a significant impact on that sort of strategy.

Yep, hunters are by far the hardest class in the game to balance. We are a class that can go from overpowered to stupidly weak and back with very little change.
I can't wait to see the final product of the 2.3 hunter changes and can't wait to get my hands on them to see how they feel and if they will truly make a difference.

I recall blizzard making a statement along the lines of there will be no big fundamental class changes until WOTLK. Personally I'm glad they renigged on that statement. The dead zone takes most of our problems and compounds them. Its readjustment is necessary for the good of the class.

Kaber · 10/19/07, 5:06 PM

Actually I was thinking about this a lot, and I think what would be really helpful is if they added Snare resistance as our 4 piece set bonus. I don't know how much would be fair, but anything less than 30% would be useless (combined with Surefooted, the gem, and enchant you could get up to 55%). That would at least give Hunters a chance at escaping.

Either that or they need to buff Surefooted itself to double or even triple the current amount.

Also, Deterrence having a 5 minute cooldown is pretty ridiculous. That needs to be addressed.

Levidian · 10/19/07, 5:21 PM

Originally Posted by Kaber

Actually I was thinking about this a lot, and I think what would be really helpful is if they added Snare resistance as our 4 piece set bonus. I don't know how much would be fair, but anything less than 30% would be useless (combined with Surefooted, the gem, and enchant you could get up to 55%). That would at least give Hunters a chance at escaping.

Either that or they need to buff Surefooted itself to double or even triple the current amount.

Also, Deterrence having a 5 minute cooldown is pretty ridiculous. That needs to be addressed.

Yea I agree a 15% resistance on spammable snares isn't really anything insane. One thing to consider though unless it has been changed recently. If you resist the snare on a frostbolt you resist the damage also. Surefooted essentially grants you a 15% frostbolt immunity :P, correct me if im wrong, but I believe that is still the case.

@ Deterrence, Yea it is definitely lacking especially considering the duration. I wouldn't even want to begin to try to figure out the reason why it isn't the same duration as evasion since that would require prying into the minds of the development staff.

Deterrence could actually be a good place to look when the issues of FF survival/mitigation are concerned. Deterrence could be a mixture of spell and physical mitigation.
Rework the ability and change the CD.
Deterrence 2min CD -
Increase Dodge and parry changes by 25%, and decreases your opponents effective spell hit chance against you by X%.

Elendril · 10/19/07, 5:36 PM

Deterrence is remarkably underpowered for where it is - I've mentioned before that I think adding a snare break/immunity component to it would go a long way toward making it more compelling. This is my typical experience with deterrence:

Osse · 10/19/07, 7:47 PM

MS and whirlwind hit you while you were stunned, rest two are just unlucky hits.

I do agree that deterrence is crap though.

Elendril · 10/19/07, 7:52 PM

Originally Posted by Osse

MS and whirlwind hit you while you were stunned, rest two are just unlucky hits.

I do agree that deterrence is crap though.

Oh, I know why they hit me - I'm just pointing out how the "can't dodge/parry while stunned" mechanic makes deterrence rather unexciting in a world of mace spec and stormheralds. If it were a snare break, it would at least have some guaranteed utility. Snare break, 2 second immunity, 2 minute cooldown.

Enova · 10/19/07, 8:16 PM

Originally Posted by Elendril

Oh, I know why they hit me - I'm just pointing out how the "can't dodge/parry while stunned" mechanic makes deterrence rather unexciting in a world of mace spec and stormheralds. If it were a snare break, it would at least have some guaranteed utility. Snare break, 2 second immunity, 2 minute cooldown.

I can see how these effects would turn into a small forum bait for trolls, but to be fair deterrence is in need of a buff. It should at least have some sort of immunity to stuns, at the very least, to prevent it from being negated.

However, 2 seconds of immunity to everything via a tier 3 talent would basically make it a must for any spec hoping to go to the arena (41/5/15, anyone?). Especially since, with the deadzone out of the way, 2 seconds should get us back into range.

I'm very skeptical this will be added, though, because the current approach to hunters is to make them some kind of ranged warriors (MS, disarm, what's next? execute?), but it's nice to add that to the wish list, along with uninterruptable steady shots (it's steady, you're not supposed to freak out when someone swings an axe at you).

Zure · 10/19/07, 8:20 PM

Originally Posted by Levidian

Yea I agree a 15% resistance on spammable snares isn't really anything insane. One thing to consider though unless it has been changed recently. If you resist the snare on a frostbolt you resist the damage also. Surefooted essentially grants you a 15% frostbolt immunity :P, correct me if im wrong, but I believe that is still the case.

@ Deterrence, Yea it is definitely lacking especially considering the duration. I wouldn't even want to begin to try to figure out the reason why it isn't the same duration as evasion since that would require prying into the minds of the development staff.

Deterrence could actually be a good place to look when the issues of FF survival/mitigation are concerned. Deterrence could be a mixture of spell and physical mitigation.
Rework the ability and change the CD.
Deterrence 2min CD -
Increase Dodge and parry changes by 25%, and decreases your opponents effective spell hit chance against you by X%.

Resisting secondary effects no longer causes the spell's damage to be resisted.

I agree that deterrence is hardly exceptional. I'd like to see it as a base ability, with counterattack moved to the 11 point position, and deflection made its prerequisite revised as a 3 point talent, 2% per point.

Then you could make the 21 point talent the vaunted snare break, so that a hunter couldn't safely have TBW and that.

I personally feel that marks to silencing shot with a buffed counterattack (easier to get, more likely to parry) would be much more viable than it is now.

Redpath · 10/19/07, 10:37 PM

Apparently the MS debuff on Aim Shot is now on PTR

I was expecting the underlaying mechanics of Aim Shot to change. Hopefully that is still coming?

Goreshot · 10/19/07, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by Redpath

Apparently the MS debuff on Aim Shot is now on PTR

I was expecting the underlaying mechanics of Aim Shot to change. Hopefully that is still coming?

I wouldn't anticipate any changes to underlying Aimed Shot mechanics or damage, given they've just added a rather significant debuff component to the shot.

Osse · 10/19/07, 11:40 PM

4-37 yards..

Let the whining begin!

Thebe · 10/20/07, 12:09 AM

So excited...

Kaber · 10/20/07, 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by Redpath

Apparently the MS debuff on Aim Shot is now on PTR

I was expecting the underlaying mechanics of Aim Shot to change. Hopefully that is still coming?

So it will still have essentially a 6 second cast time? Or is it a flat 3.5s cast time now? I hope it is the latter, since aimed shot does reset the shot timer. If it does not change in any way, I do not see how we will get this shot off very often at decent players who understand LoS or the interrupt system.

Xavias · 10/20/07, 1:18 AM

Originally Posted by Goreshot

I wouldn't anticipate any changes to underlying Aimed Shot mechanics or damage, given they've just added a rather significant debuff component to the shot.

Kalgan actually posted that the Aimed Shot mechanic would be significantly changed if they went for the Mortal strike debuff on it (other than the results of the Mortal strike itself).

As I said before, this deadzone fix is nothing more than a buff to our DPS uptime/special uptime (viper) against casters. It does virtually nothing against Melee classes gaining a massive advantage in shutting us down with snares, nor DoT classes using LoS and death-sentence dot casting on us.

Thebe · 10/20/07, 2:19 AM

As far as I can tell they reduced our melee range so that we still have 1 yard of dead zone. I tested this: http://www.worldofraids.com/news/oct...3/deadzone.jpg myself and it seems to be correct. That's pretty depressing that we still have a 1 yard deadzone. It makes it even more pointless I guess.