Excellent job at whoever did the analysis, there are some things that immediately jump out:
- The warlock complete dominance in 2 vs 2, 3 vs 3 seems to be perhaps the best balanced format.
- 5 vs 5 is silightly more balanced, except a few classes are fucked like druids and rogues/hunters.
I would rather this didn't evolve into another thread where everyone bitches about general class power, but it seems clear that certain classes clearly need some buffs and some need some adjustments. 20 times as many warlocks as hunters in 2 vs 2 is in no way acceptable.
I am also very puzzled by the lack of ice mages at the top of the 2 vs 2 foodchain, I figured you'd at least a few paired up with another offensive dps class.
Some issues with this type of analaysis is that the number of teams at the top is too small to be extremly accurate, but since we don't have the exact numbers he used it is hard to judge the p-value of the data.
Well the only thing to note would be class population. There is less druids because they are one of the most underpopulated classes, where as rogues and hunter are the most overpopulated. But this is a very interesting chart.
Well the only thing to note would be class population. There is less druids because they are one of the most underpopulated classes, where as rogues and hunter are the most overpopulated. But this is a very interesting chart.
Edit: On most servers
I think even if you normalize by number of level 70's in the class you won't change the ratio's that much, expecially not all the way at the top.
The top of the 2v2 foodchain is Druid/Warlock. Frost mages don't do much against that.
I would like to see this chart segregated by talent spec.
Agreed, talent spec would be interesting - I suspect that priests are the only class that has two viable high end arena specs though.
Vhairi's ScratchpadI am also very puzzled by the lack of ice mages at the top of the 2 vs 2 foodchain, I figured you'd at least a few paired up with another offensive dps class.
Healers are fairly interchangeable. Some are better than others with X teammate and against Y teams but you can be successful with any healer going with any of the top 3 dpsers (warlock+healer or warrior+healer or rogue+healer). Similarly the top 3 dpsers are all solid in the mana war. The warrior and rogue don't have mana, and warlocks have mana for as long as their healers do. All 3 have ways to reduce healer mana or effectiveness too. And again all 3 are able to DPS through LOS wars better than mages due to either melee or dots. Warriors need a healer to keep them up long enough for their inevitability to kill the enemy, the other 2 just need... a teamate, they're just readymade for 2v2. They only need help because they can't kill 2 people by themselves, they don't really need a weakness covered.
I think that's the "problem" with 2v2. If you can't fight the mana war you have to team up with another DPSer and play some burn. But burn is hard unless you have melee, stuns, or dots, so a whole lot of combos get thrown out the window by default. If you look at the chart warlock aren't THAT dominant. That's not the main problem. The main problem is that warrior/rogue/warlock are 12+% higher than every other DPS class/spec and for reasons I've given above.
I've mentioned this to a few other people, but Druid for 5v5 is really quite the exception, because it takes an extremely high level of skill to play exceptionally well or the druid is a liability -- whereas most other classes have a very linear correlation between player skill and the resulting skill of the class played. A bad druid is absolutely atrocious. A normal druid is still not that great. A good druid is OK. A great druid is pretty decent. An exceptional druid, however, is a dramatic improvement over that. That's one reason why you don't see many of them as well -- if the druid isn't exceptional, he's very much a liability on the team as opposed to any other class. It's really very quickly apparent to me I run into one of those druids, and it's not very often. They know exactly when to kite, you can never catch them, yet somehow they still somehow juggle cyclones and hots and roots and everything else. That's argueably the most decision making that any class has to make, and they have to do it almost perfectly or again, they're a clear liability.
This is not intended as a QQ druids post either (I'm not a druid anwyays!) -- it's just pointing out my reasoning for why you just don't see many of them.
As for Frost Mages, the thing with them is they're more about control than damage -- think about what that mage usually does in 5v5's. He sheeps, he freezes, he counterspells, damage is usually a secondary concern. They can do some burst damage of course, but 2v2 is just a much different animal than 5v5. Mages are extremely suspectible to being LoS+kited in a lot of cases, and in 2v2 you've lost 50% of your DPS as a result -- maybe more if your other partner is being pounded on by, say, a warrior.
The other thing that chart shows is Shamans being at the bottom of the healers, which is what I would have expected. Without getting into particulars, that's just about their survivability and healing tools in general being somewhat weak in an arena setting. I know they show up as higher on 5's, but that's because a lot of those shamans are Elemental, not Resto.
The graphs certainly make a very powerful point about the lack of Hunters though, that's for sure.
We ran into an amazing druid this week in what I can only imagine is a selling team because they were insane. They took over ~150 points from us (and this alone convinced us to work in another day so we can afford to sidestep such teams and get more practice) and I'd say almost solely because of the druid. If he was left alone he just seemed to magically cyclone 3 of us at a time. None of our DPS could do anything all fight and sure enough when one of us was low all the healers were cycloned. I know that's impossible but it just seemed like it, the guy was just doing everything he needed to do right when he needed to do it. Trying to kill him... yeah, that didn't happen either. Any other class in that spot and we might have had a chance to kill at least one of them before humiliating defeat, but with him there it was impossible.
Snowy, I agree with your argument about druid only in a small scale pvp, but if what you said was true generally, you should see a sharp peak of druids around 2.3+ rating, since at that level of play most players are excellent, but you don't really, at least not in 5's.
In 2's on the other hand you see exactly what you said - and I know this is the case because I 3 vs 3 with an exceptional restoration druid.
In 5's druids are just fairly poor, even at the very very high end.
I've mentioned this to a few other people, but Druid for 5v5 is really quite the exception, because it takes an extremely high level of skill to play exceptionally well or the druid is a liability -- whereas most other classes have a very linear correlation between player skill and the resulting skill of the class played. A bad druid is absolutely atrocious. A normal druid is still not that great. A good druid is OK. A great druid is pretty decent. An exceptional druid, however, is a dramatic improvement over that. That's one reason why you don't see many of them as well -- if the druid isn't exceptional, he's very much a liability on the team as opposed to any other class. It's really very quickly apparent to me I run into one of those druids, and it's not very often. They know exactly when to kite, you can never catch them, yet somehow they still somehow juggle cyclones and hots and roots and everything else. That's argueably the most decision making that any class has to make, and they have to do it almost perfectly or again, they're a clear liability.
This is not intended as a QQ druids post either (I'm not a druid anwyays!) -- it's just pointing out my reasoning for why you just don't see many of them.
As for Frost Mages, the thing with them is they're more about control than damage -- think about what that mage usually does in 5v5's. He sheeps, he freezes, he counterspells, damage is usually a secondary concern. They can do some burst damage of course, but 2v2 is just a much different animal than 5v5. Mages are extremely suspectible to being LoS+kited in a lot of cases, and in 2v2 you've lost 50% of your DPS as a result -- maybe more if your other partner is being pounded on by, say, a warrior.
The other thing that chart shows is Shamans being at the bottom of the healers, which is what I would have expected. Without getting into particulars, that's just about their survivability and healing tools in general being somewhat weak in an arena setting. I know they show up as higher on 5's, but that's because a lot of those shamans are Elemental, not Resto.
The graphs certainly make a very powerful point about the lack of Hunters though, that's for sure.
I whole heartedly agree with this. There are also other classes where difference between good player and genius is just devastating. But in druids case the difference is just unimaginable. It all sums up to players imagination and ability to prioritise what they do.
One could say we are lucky to not have many skilled druids around, but there is also the other side of the coin.
The dominance of warlocks is in exact correlation to the absence of Frost Mages. You see a low more rogue/lock pairing this season even though I'd consider rogue/mage a stronger combo for overall class balance, but mages just get eaten by locks whether they are playing 2dps or dps/healer 2v2 setups, so that really lead to the rise of warlocks even more.
The top of the 2v2 foodchain is Druid/Warlock. Frost mages don't do much against that.
I would like to see this chart segregated by talent spec.
Top of the food chain is now Warrior/Druid with Warlock pets scaling with no resilience, warrior teams are able to dominate them allowing them to get to the top. After talking to many top Warrior/Druid teams they say the 1900-2200 rating is more difficult because their bane is double DPS, once they break the double DPS barrier in most battlegroups, they are able to farm their way to the top by fighting Warlock/Healer teams and Rogue/Healer teams.
Just wanted to emphasize the bit on druid skill even more. My current 5v5 (which is basically just something I'm doing for arena points) runs several different lineups, but the one we've had the most success with is rogue/aff warlock/ice mage/holy pal/resto druid.
Now, we have 2 resto druids that play with us. The first druid does decently. He can keep people alive pretty well, and he certainly is a contributor instead of a liability (at least at our rating), but he isn't as good with his CCing and what have you.
The second druid literally carried us to a 26 point win over a gladiator team. Yeah, the rest of us were all on the ball, and the opposing team's druid made the mistake of shifting out of bear when our rogue had a 5pt kidney shot ready, but really, it was our druid that made that win possible. It seemed like every time there was a warrior all over a clothie, he was cycloned a second later, every time I got hit with tongues, it was off a second later, every time somebody needed more burst healing than I could muster, there was a lifebloom popping, etc.
The truely great resto druids make it look easy, but I think that it is the hardest class to play to it's full potential in high-end 5s.
EDIT: /wave shadowborne. Can you guess who the druid was?
Just wanted to emphasize the bit on druid skill even more. My current 5v5 (which is basically just something I'm doing for arena points) runs several different lineups, but the one we've had the most success with is rogue/aff warlock/ice mage/holy pal/resto druid.
Now, we have 2 resto druids that play with us. The first druid does decently. He can keep people alive pretty well, and he certainly is a contributor instead of a liability (at least at our rating), but he isn't as good with his CCing and what have you.
The second druid literally carried us to a 26 point win over a gladiator team. Yeah, the rest of us were all on the ball, and the opposing team's druid made the mistake of shifting out of bear when our rogue had a 5pt kidney shot ready, but really, it was our druid that made that win possible. It seemed like every time there was a warrior all over a clothie, he was cycloned a second later, every time I got hit with tongues, it was off a second later, every time somebody needed more burst healing than I could muster, there was a lifebloom popping, etc.
The truely great resto druids make it look easy, but I think that it is the hardest class to play to it's full potential in high-end 5s.
EDIT: /wave shadowborne. Can you guess who the druid was?
Frost mages really need another DPSer to be overly dangerous, and in 2v2 that means you're running without a healer. Frost mage + healer is relatively strong, but with the total domination of warlock/druid and warrior/druid at the high levels you're eventually going to hit a brick wall. I would like to someday try mage/warlock on for size, though.
Inform your dealers and whores of my credit, and pour me a goddamned drink!
This is not intended as a QQ druids post either (I'm not a druid anwyays!) -- it's just pointing out my reasoning for why you just don't see many of them.
It's also a bit self-fulfilling -- as a resto druid it's really hard to get invited to a good 5v5 team, so it's hard to get practice at that level.
It's also heavily dependent on the rest of the team -- if they're good at CCing and take healing pressure of the druid, he's free to really work the CC and kiting. If everyone's always in dire peril you end up doing nothing but emergency healing and fall behind on the CC, which of course snowballs. Managing your time so you stay ahead of that inflection point has a lot to with the difference between a "good" and "great" druid.
I suspect that the only reason druids are under-represented in arenas is the relatively low number of druids as compared to other classes in the game as a whole. Druids are completely absurd in 2v2; the only counter to a good druid/dps team is another good druid/dps team. They're still insane in 3v3; hots + cyclone + travel form works just as well as it does in 2v2 for staying alive forever. In 5v5, I believe the skill required to play the class properly is much higher, but they're still probably the best healers. We run into a fair number of very terrible druids who might as well not be there (at 2100 or so), but we also run into a few unkillable cyclone machines who, along with keeping their team alive, dish out more CC than two good mages put together. It's surreal when our 4dps team is trying in vain to get someone down, and all you hear in vent is "rooted - cycloned - cycloned - cycloned - feral charged - crippling got abolished - rooted again - cycloned - cycloned . . ."
Agreed, talent spec would be interesting - I suspect that priests are the only class that has two viable high end arena specs though.
Nah there are several.
Shamans can do well as restoration or elemental. Druids can do pretty well as balance (I'm not sure how many are actually in top 20 teams, but it's possible for sure). Warlocks can be demonology or affliction (in limited matrices anyway). Rogues can be mutilate or combat.
For most of those though, one is generally considered superior to the other, where as the duality of shadow priests is like playing two different classes.
As for restoration druids, their healing throughput and ability to absorb damage is low, but their control over an opponent, mobility, and mana longevity is very high. This in a nutshell explains why they're stronger in small brackets than large ones.
They also have more decisions to make at any given point than most classes. Making the wrong decision at any point, especially in 5v5, can cause a very premature loss. And then I get yelled at
Agreed, talent spec would be interesting - I suspect that priests are the only class that has two viable high end arena specs though.
Warriors - Only MS is viable - 35/23/3 or something similar
Paladins - Only Holy is viable - 41/20/0, period
Hunters - BM and MM both work
Shamans - Resto and Ele both work, and fill completely different roles
Rogues - Combat and Mutilate both work, although Combat is much better for 5s
Druids - Resto, Feral, and Balance all work, and all fill different roles. Resto is predominant, but all three can be strong
Mages - Only Frost is viable, but you have some freedom with your remaining 20 points
Warlocks - SL/SL and UA/x/11 both work, SL/SL is somewhat more popular
Priests - Holy/Disc and Shadow both work, and fill completely different roles. Holy probably outnumbers Shadow by 2:1 or 3:1 at the top
In all cases of Druids in arenas, Resto is dominant. Way way further down is Feral, follwed by a distant Moonkin. I know it doesn't get broken down as finely per bracket as the graph given in the first post, but you can easily see trends for specs at higher levels.
edit- after poking around there for a bit, why the hell are almost all the highest end Korean rogues strange heavy Subtlety specs?
It's also a bit self-fulfilling -- as a resto druid it's really hard to get invited to a good 5v5 team, so it's hard to get practice at that level.
It's also heavily dependent on the rest of the team -- if they're good at CCing and take healing pressure of the druid, he's free to really work the CC and kiting. If everyone's always in dire peril you end up doing nothing but emergency healing and fall behind on the CC, which of course snowballs. Managing your time so you stay ahead of that inflection point has a lot to with the difference between a "good" and "great" druid.
Agreed 100%.
And to emphasize on the first part of your post, its also very tough to start off in the 5v5 as a druid. I missed all of first season, so I am still working on my gear. This means when I get focus fired, I go down like a freshman on prom night. It is a VERY steep learning curve.
I reject your paltry reality and substitute my own.
Shamans do have two high-end-viable specs, though Elemental rarely functions in a bracket smaller than 5s. This is due largely to pushback and control issues--they're the only caster-DPS characters in the game without a way to keep their opponents at arm's length.
In 2s (the bracket I enjoy the most), there is a really steep curve at around 2200 that is extremely difficult to get through unless you partner with a Warlock. Basically, at this level crowd control is the gold standard (it always is in 2s to a certain extent) and not only do Shamans completely lack CC (this should be slightly better in 2.3 with Frost Shock no longer on DR), they are notoriously weak against it. Finally, they are the least efficient healers and the most vulnerable to interrupts/silences (I know Paladins are vulnerable as well, but Divine Shield is a heck of a lot better than nothing).
For what it's worth, I think Warrior/Shaman is significantly stronger than Warrior/Paladin at that level. The Shaman has a clear edge in dispels especially against Warrior/Paladin...Purge also destroys Priests and puts a lot of pressure on Druids and Mages. Even after the Windfury nerf my Warrior partner outputs a lot more damage than a Druid's or Paladin's Warrior partner. The Rogue increase is also somewhat surprising, for a healer/Warrior team any Rogue opponent is pretty much a guaranteed win.
The ultimate message here is something that's been beaten to death by the community but still hasn't happened...Warlocks need to be toned down. If we can't wear SR in arenas that's fine, but the pathetic 10% reduction in DOT damage is pretty meaningless if the other team is set up to exploit DOTs (I use "exploit" here in the conventional sense, not the "U R CHEATING" sense). As others have pointed out, Resilience Rating's effect on crit chance and damage is a mechanism to reduce burst damage. DOTs are not burst damage, they are the polar opposite of burst damage...so why are they treated this way? It seems like a quick-and-easy half-solution rather than a well-reasoned balancing of DOTs in PvP.
In all cases of Druids in arenas, Resto is dominant. Way way further down is Feral, follwed by a distant Moonkin. I know it doesn't get broken down as finely per bracket as the graph given in the first post, but you can easily see trends for specs at higher levels.
You can take the spec with a grain of salt, because when the parse happens, it could mis-interpret the raiding spec (feral) for the PVP spec (which is resto).
The Washington Post helps perpetuate a common and pernicious misreading of the decision, referring to "the Supreme Court’s judgment that corporations have the same rights as people when it comes to political speech." What the Supreme Court actually said is that people do not lose their free speech rights when they organize as corporations, including nonprofit interest groups as well as businesses.
10/08/07, 10:37 AM
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