Blizzard and Arena - Do they understand it?

Xavias · 10/24/07, 5:28 AM

Arena is a sub-game in WoW. It is a relatively new concept, and is very different to how the rest of the game functions. It is supposed to bring a competitive edge to Player-vs-Player combat.

This isn't a bash-Blizzard thread, so please don't turn it into one.

I would like to see other peoples opinions on this: Do you think the Blizzard devs (mainly Tom Chilton and crew) have the forsight, and Arena experience to adequately balance the current Arena system? Do you think they are at the cutting edge of Arena strategy? Do you believe they actually play Arena and/or are capable of achieving a competitive rating?

Do comments from Blizzard such as this shake your faith?

We were finding that the current duration of hypothermia was simply not long enough. Mages were easily able to buy the time they needed to iceblock a second time when fighting the same opponents. This is basically what we were looking to prevent. I understand that this isn't the answer you're looking for, but these are the facts.

Osse · 10/24/07, 6:23 AM

I'm sure about at least one thing.

They havent tested Blade's Edge with pets vs an opponent with brains. Two-level arena with the current pet AI just isnt very balanced.

• Mex · 10/24/07, 6:36 AM

I'd say that, in my experience, Blizzard has a much greater understanding of arena than any single player I've ever encountered.

Regarding that comment, I think that if they're looking to prevent mages from using Iceblock twice vs the same opponents then they'd need to make hypothermia 1 minute or longer. Or remove IB from the list of abilities that cold snap affects. Two iceblocks in 30 seconds is very powerful though.

drole · 10/24/07, 6:49 AM

I don't think the problem is Blizzard not understanding arenas more likely it is players not understanding Blizzard!

No they won't be able to maintain a gladiator-rank or something like that (pure speculation!). WoW is a mainstream game for a mainstream audience.

Darkmantle · 10/24/07, 6:58 AM

Originally Posted by Osse

I'm sure about at least one thing.

They havent tested Blade's Edge with pets vs an opponent with brains. Two-level arena with the current pet AI just isnt very balanced.

One could alternatively argue that 2 classes having fire and forget anti drinking mechanisms isn't very balanced on nagrang either.

Of course against skilled they play the pet game better but non pet classes fighting against warlocks and hunter have got to love BEA.

Herrera · 10/24/07, 7:04 AM

Originally Posted by Osse

I'm sure about at least one thing.

They havent tested Blade's Edge with pets vs an opponent with brains. Two-level arena with the current pet AI just isnt very balanced.

Make pets jump? I'd say make all arenas 2 levels or more so we can use "brains" to render ourselves out of combat so we can drink. That, or give us all pets so we can use "even more brains" to make the pet auto attack the healer so he can't drink.
Sorry, I had to reply with sarcasm to your whine. You should be more objective.

I think Blizzard is aware of the arena and where it stands much more than we think. Keep in mind that they have the most accurate data about class representation across all brackets, most favorite talent specs, gear preference, etc. If you see the lately popular chart on class balance, you will notice that, save hunters, all classes are balanced in the arena as a whole. Some classes (warrior, paladin) are popular in all brackets, while others (druids, rogues) are present in 2s and 3s. Buffing druids or rogues so they can be viable in 5s will just make them OP in the other brackets. Hunters on the other hand, are lowest in all brackets, and it's not surprise they get a quite a buff in 2.3. I think that when Blizzard designed the arena, they had no idea how it will turn out, i.e. they were unaware of the competitive level the arenas would get.
I trust they will only improve arena experience further in next patches.

I'm puzzled by the Hypothermia nerf, but I only see it as nerf in 5s. Can't comment much about this, really.

vaeal · 10/24/07, 7:33 AM

Originally Posted by Xavias

Arena is a sub-game in WoW. It is a relatively new concept, and is very different to how the rest of the game functions. It is supposed to bring a competitive edge to Player-vs-Player combat.

This isn't a bash-Blizzard thread, so please don't turn it into one.

I would like to see other peoples opinions on this: Do you think the Blizzard devs (mainly Tom Chilton and crew) have the forsight, and Arena experience to adequately balance the current Arena system? Do you think they are at the cutting edge of Arena strategy? Do you believe they actually play Arena and/or are capable of achieving a competitive rating?

Do comments from Blizzard such as this shake your faith?

First off, I believe arena's are a huge step forward for enjoyable PvP content. BG's are too impresonal and world PvP can easily be very unbalanced (PvP isnt much fun if its 3 vs you). Arena's have made me fall in love with PvP when before I avoided it like the plague. I honestly doubt I could have designed a better system myself.

Second, in regards to your point of balance, remember that the game is not intended to be balanced around arena PvP. The balance/developement team is charged with the impossible task of balancing all 9 class's to the best of their abilities in a vast array of different area's such as World PvP, 2v2 arena, 3v3 arena, 5v5 arena, PvE end game, 5 man heroics/instances, solo play, farming, etc. I'm sure Blizzard would be able to make a lot of improvements to 5v5 arena to improve balance but in doing so they could be furthering or creating an inbalance in other area's.

As far as whether or not I think they are at the cutting edge or arena strategy, my years playing Magic: The Gathering have taught me that while designers are certaintly able to influence the way they desire certain things to be played, they are rarely able to predict how things will actually unfold. The developement team contains a handful of staff to test and explore new talents/abilities but after they are released there are millions of other players eagerly waiting to see how they can exploit new mechanics/abilities; There is no possible way for a developement team to be able to completly test any change in every forseable way and release it in a timely manner (Which is also the main reason why the PTR's exist).

Finally, I do not know if Blizzard is able to achieve "competative" rankings (How could any of us know?) but I do believe that they participate in the arena. For one, its their job, but due to the remarkable success of WoW and its ability to keep me hooked since day 1 I can firmly say that they would not have been able to acheive the results they have without putting forth an abundance of passion into the game. I'd be willing to wager that the developers were more axious to play in the arena's in the live client than any of us were.

Pitbuller · 10/24/07, 7:35 AM

[Rogue] Cheat Death (Subtlety) chance to trigger increased to 33/66/100% [up from 10/20/30%] and now also causes the rogue to take 90% less damage for 3 seconds when the effect triggers. This effect cannot occur more than once per minute.
This look like rogue 5v5 buff to me.

Xavias · 10/24/07, 8:36 AM

Statistically Warriors, Druids and Warlocks have the edge on Arena combat at the moment. Next patch we are seeing:

- Buff to Druids
- Buff to MS Warriors
- Slight nerf to Warlocks
- No major buffs to any other class, save Ret pallys.(yes, I left out Hunters because its not a big buff, as everyone seems to think)

I play a Priest, Druid, Hunter, Mage, rogue in competitive arena, all between 2000 and 2250 rating.
I can tell you without any sense of hesitation that the druid is by far the most powerful Healer out of every other class in 2v2 and 3v3. I can also tell you that my Hunter is the least powerful (despite a 2200 3v3 rating).

So I do have a bit of doubt when it comes to Blizzards ability to balance the lower brackets of Arena, and it appears to me that they have not played in high 2v2 brackets.

• Maestroquark · 10/24/07, 9:19 AM

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

[Rogue] Cheat Death (Subtlety) chance to trigger increased to 33/66/100% [up from 10/20/30%] and now also causes the rogue to take 90% less damage for 3 seconds when the effect triggers. This effect cannot occur more than once per minute.
This look like rogue 5v5 buff to me.

Yes, it is, but try finding a Rogue that's deep in Subtlety and actually getting a good rating. The current Rogue buffs aren't so much balancing Rogues with other classes as they are balancing Subtlety with Combat. The status quo, from a class perspective, should remain.

And, once again, they've added a cooldown driven mechanic to the Rogue class. Does anyone really think that's what's necessary, at this point? Weren't the first 4 non-talented ones (Evasion, Sprint, Vanish, Cloak of Shadows) enough, let alone all the talented ones?

Adrammelech · 10/24/07, 9:37 AM

Originally Posted by Xavias

Statistically Warriors, Druids and Warlocks have the edge on Arena combat at the moment. Next patch we are seeing:

- Buff to Druids
- Buff to MS Warriors
- Slight nerf to Warlocks
- No major buffs to any other class, save Ret pallys.(yes, I left out Hunters because its not a big buff, as everyone seems to think)

This not a QQ about the state of warriors, but what buff are you talking about? I saw some talent points get shifted about that mess with my pve spec, and changes nothing for my pvp one, a 33% reduction in the duration of hamstring, a slight reduction in the proc chance of mace stuns, and debatable as a nerf is the loss of disarm immunity.

Viscera · 10/24/07, 9:53 AM

Originally Posted by Adrammelech

This not a QQ about the state of warriors, but what buff are you talking about? I saw some talent points get shifted about that mess with my pve spec, and changes nothing for my pvp one, a 33% reduction in the duration of hamstring, a slight reduction in the proc chance of mace stuns, and debatable as a nerf is the loss of disarm immunity.

Sweeping strikes being 10 charges and castable in berserker stance is in my eyes a huge buff. Especially in 5v5 when you intercept someone with a full rage bar who´s about to be focus fired who´s clumped up with someone and cast sweeping strikes for some nasty sidedamage that has to be healed as well (also imagine if they are stupid enough to be in a group of 4 and you start off with a 8 hit whirlwind). Also for 2v2 you could debate going for Last Stand for a lot of extra survivability now that Improved Intercept and Death Wish are in the arms tree.

As for what I would definately like to see changed in the arena is that pets keep you in combat. A Warlock really shouldn´t be able to stick a pet on you with autopurge and auto spelllock and just forget about you but still making you unable to drink.

Juice · 10/24/07, 9:58 AM

Aciara · 10/24/07, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Xavias

Statistically Warriors, Druids and Warlocks have the edge on Arena combat at the moment. Next patch we are seeing:

- Buff to Druids
- Buff to MS Warriors
- Slight nerf to Warlocks
- No major buffs to any other class, save Ret pallys.(yes, I left out Hunters because its not a big buff, as everyone seems to think)

I play a Priest, Druid, Hunter, Mage, rogue in competitive arena, all between 2000 and 2250 rating.
I can tell you without any sense of hesitation that the druid is by far the most powerful Healer out of every other class in 2v2 and 3v3. I can also tell you that my Hunter is the least powerful (despite a 2200 3v3 rating).

So I do have a bit of doubt when it comes to Blizzards ability to balance the lower brackets of Arena, and it appears to me that they have not played in high 2v2 brackets.

I've seen this quite a few times now, and I always go back to mmo-champ and check the notes and always fail to see how I'm getting a major buff next patch. Would you care to elaborate please?

mikebro · 10/24/07, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Xavias

Statistically Warriors, Druids and Warlocks have the edge on Arena combat at the moment. Next patch we are seeing:

- Buff to Druids
- Buff to MS Warriors
- Slight nerf to Warlocks
- No major buffs to any other class, save Ret pallys.(yes, I left out Hunters because its not a big buff, as everyone seems to think)

PVP spec warriors did not get any significant buffs. Swapping Sweeping Strikes with Deathwish and Weapon Mastery with Imp. Intercept was strictly a Fury nerf/change. The only sort of buff PVP Warriors received is the ability to use Sweeping Strikes in beserker stance, which is OK but not a "big buff" worth listing over hunter changes.

I don't think you have to be some sort of 2500+ in all brackets Arena master in order to balance arena games. I'm sure they're very aware of what classes stand where (Some very interesting data about relative class abundance) and get more feedback (and whining) than they could ever want. Mages are part of the extremely successful 5v5 (Warrior/Priest/Pally/Shaman/Mage) but are very under-represented in 2v2, how do you fix that without making them ridiculously overpowered in 5v5, is it even possible?

Hunters are pretty much the only class that is mediocre in every bracket, and they are receiving buffs. Sure, they're not game breaking but they are aware the problem exists and working towards a solution. There is only so much they can change at once while maintaining a semblance of balance.

Adrammelech · 10/24/07, 10:15 AM

Yes, I did forget the sweeping strike change, and it is nice. I just don't know if I'd say with all the changes that warriors got buffed.

nfw · 10/24/07, 10:15 AM

They seem to care a lot about arena and ignore all other forms of PvP, as evident by the buffs to hunters and rogues, and the senseless shuffling of warrior talents, making me think that they are just trying to please everyone, and in the end, no one.

If they truly understand arena, or "e-sport", they would have created a completely separate ruleset for it.

Rieux · 10/24/07, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Aciara

I've seen this quite a few times now, and I always go back to mmo-champ and check the notes and always fail to see how I'm getting a major buff next patch. Would you care to elaborate please?

Instant form switching is going to be a huge buff in the next patch. Being able to go from bear to travel form in one click will be huge. Apart from that, Intensity being doubled in effectiveness is certainly not insignificant. Druids were already the most efficient healers in the lower brackets, and this only makes them better.

Xavias · 10/24/07, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Aciara

I've seen this quite a few times now, and I always go back to mmo-champ and check the notes and always fail to see how I'm getting a major buff next patch. Would you care to elaborate please?

Instant form switching macro's are going to be insane, as well as the extra mana regen (especially with BT gear, which my Druid often uses) and range buff on Abolish poison is huge against Rogues. (their arch-nemesis)

Herrera · 10/24/07, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Rieux

Instant form switching is going to be a huge buff in the next patch. Being able to go from bear to travel form in one click will be huge. Apart from that, Intensity being doubled in effectiveness is certainly not insignificant. Druids were already the most efficient healers in the lower brackets, and this only makes them better.

Seconded.

If you are in a shapeshift form and try to use an ability that may only be used in caster form, you will leave the form and use that ability. This means that you can shift from one form to another in one action. If you don’t have mana to shift form, you will get an error message and remain in your current form. This can be disabled with /console autoUnshift 0

This will greatly reduce the gap to what is now known as "good druid" and "great druid". It will definitely make players will lower response skill perform better. I know I will love Maim from bear form after I charged/bashed a target. Actually, when I read this change this morning I thought it was either a joke or a bug. Sure it will suck having our bars filled up with all kinds of skills and more actions hotkeyed, but I don't complain.
As for the rest of the druid changes, there's no significant buff, besides the Intensity change which is in line with the spirit addition to our pvp set, which is only useful and buff after you've used Innervate. However, I have to mention again, the above quoted change is just HUGE. I play with 150-200 latency and this will greatly improve my reactions on time.

• sadris · 10/24/07, 11:08 AM

I think the fact that they aren't severely nerfing the most over-represented class (Warriors) shows how little they play arenas. Mages were within the allowable percent representation (ie: balanced); why is Ice Block getting another nerf? Subtlety is a terrible tree and anyone who knows anything knows that Rogues spec combat maces; they're fiddling with the wrong tree. Their solution to shadow damage-overpoweredness (over-effectiveness?) is to not only disallow gear swapping, but give them spell penetration on PVP gear in 2.3.

So I would say no, they don't understand it.

Nurru · 10/24/07, 11:29 AM

You'd be surprised how many members of Nurfed and other prominent pvp/arena guilds work at Blizzard. Also, as of right now Kalgan's 5v5 team is 2100+ in 5v5 on bg9, so I presume he has some idea of what it's about. I really don't think we need more whine threads on this sort of subject. The issue of pve and pvp balance always mucks up the works.

Hypothermia duration got increased because 30 seconds was short enough to let mages buy the time needed to iceblock a second time.

I still laugh at this blue explanation though. It's as if they think Mages should most definitely die after that nice .5 second MD goes off.

Aciara · 10/24/07, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Xavias

Instant form switching macro's are going to be insane, as well as the extra mana regen (especially with BT gear, which my Druid often uses) and range buff on Abolish poison is huge against Rogues. (their arch-nemesis)

Yes, so this extra manaregen which you are talking about is going to come from where? Because every other Post I've seen on these boards says the exact opposite, which is also my understanding as I'm never out of my 5 second rule unless I'm cc'ed in 5on5 (which is also the only place I'd understand using BT gear in, as playing against a warrior/rogue in 2on2 without the 15% seems really hard). As to the other thing you mentioned this wasn't in the notes I saw on mmo so omg

I'm looking forward to that, no more cat-form-lag-switching.

Hozz · 10/24/07, 11:42 AM

I dont get why they are so scared of having different rules for different brackets.

It would make it a lot easier to balance the game.

Hodan · 10/24/07, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Aciara

Yes, so this extra manaregen which you are talking about is going to come from where? Because every other Post I've seen on these boards says the exact opposite, which is also my understanding as I'm never out of my 5 second rule unless I'm cc'ed in 5on5 (which is also the only place I'd understand using BT gear in, as playing against a warrior/rogue in 2on2 without the 15% seems really hard). As to the other thing you mentioned this wasn't in the notes I saw on mmo so omg

I'm looking forward to that, no more cat-form-lag-switching.

Intensity is being doubled in effectiveness, from 15% to 30% in combat regen (the same is true for priests and mages).