Blizzard and Arena - Do they understand it? - Page 3

Adrammelech · 10/24/07, 11:02 AM

2.2 fixed the resilience bug. Burst damage is definitely up.

Siddown · 10/24/07, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Xavias

I think you may have misunderstood here... the change is an increase in a talent from 15% regen in casting to 30%, hence its a buff directly influencing your in-combat casting regeneration, and has nothing to do with your regen outside of 5 sec casting.

The issue that Resto druids are talking about is all the S3 gear is switching to Spirit Based mana regen, not Mp5. So a Druid will need to get out of the 5 second rule to get the same mana returns they received before, even with the buff to intensity. If you can get out of the 5 second rule quite a bit AND if Innervate isn't purged off the Druid, they'll actually have a better regen, but both of these scenarios become unlikely in 5v5 where druids are constantly casting and getting purged/dispelled/felhuntered.

Siddown · 10/24/07, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by Adrammelech

2.2 fixed the resilience bug. Burst damage is definitely up.

A mage teammate and I calculated some numbers based on some Arena fights the other day (where we knew the Resiliance of our opponent), and it definitely did not seem to be fixed. The numbers worked out perfectly to be double penalized, I guess we'll have to do some dueling to test again.

Zure · 10/24/07, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by mikebro

Mages are part of the extremely successful 5v5 (Warrior/Priest/Pally/Shaman/Mage) but are very under-represented in 2v2, how do you fix that without making them ridiculously overpowered in 5v5, is it even possible?

Mages have two overwhelming problems in small brackets, mana and LoS.

Ameliorating our mana problems, through lowering the cost of three spells, would be a big improvement.

Blink (627 mana),
Cone of cold (645 mana pre-talents, 532 mana with max talents),
and Mana shield (2.22 mana per 1 damage absorbed, despite the fact that 1 mana and 1 health have an even item cost in TBC)
Arcane missiles (740 mana)

I hardly think this would alter the balance of power in 5s, and in 2.3 AM will not be a viable dps spell, making a reduction in mana cost for these have very little impact on PvE.

Line of Sight is a big part of the game, and even as a mage, I'm very leery of making any significant changes there. Perhaps the most reasonable change that wouldn't require anything global would be to make the elemental's waterbolt a 1.5 second cast, with a 1 second cooldown, and/or allow its freeze to ignore LoS obstacles. This would hinder opponent's efforts to avoid all of its attacks. As a ranged pet, it is more or less unique on the pvp scene, and it doesn't seem like a great deal of thought was put into how it interacts with barriers.

Reducing the cost of AM would also be a small aid in our quest to beat pillar dancing ad infinitum.

Levidian · 10/24/07, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Zure

Mages have two overwhelming problems in small brackets, mana and LoS.

Replace Mage with hunter and that quote stands also.
We don't have spam CC, or a mana regain ability to help though.

Elendril · 10/24/07, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Levidian

Replace Mage with hunter and that quote stands also.
We don't have spam CC, or a mana regain ability to help though.

Aspect of the Viper is one of the most powerful mana regen abilities in arena, along with Feign Death/Drink.

Adrammelech · 10/24/07, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Siddown

A mage teammate and I calculated some numbers based on some Arena fights the other day (where we knew the Resiliance of our opponent), and it definitely did not seem to be fixed. The numbers worked out perfectly to be double penalized, I guess we'll have to do some dueling to test again.

I checked the 2.2 notes and found this, "Corrected the damage modifier calculation for Resilience when the attacker has bonus critical strike damage."

So if you're testing is finding otherwise, it may have been broken in one of the smaller updates. Definitely would be interested to see what you find out.

snakedance · 10/24/07, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by Adrammelech

Not to sound like a broken record, but what exactly does this change? What buff will any Arena specced warrior gain from the talent placement change?

The only significant thing about the change that sticks out at me is that warriors will now have an option between Arms/Fury and Arms/Cruelty/Prot. So you'll still have your Enraging-Sweeping-Slamming damage-machines for 5s, and warriors will potentially be able to pick up a controlled stun and Last Stand for smaller brackets.

Whether or not this will pan out into anything significant is beyond me, but it seems on paper that an Arms/Cruelty/Prot build will be a bit more dangerous unsupported and in small brackets.

Tower · 10/24/07, 11:49 AM

For sure, can't wait for the Intercept Stun > Stormherald Stun > Mace Spec Stun > Concussion Blow Stun fun in 2v2 against even more slippery 2.3 druids. Warriors on test are reporting a 2-3% decrease in procrate overall for Mace Spec Stuns? -_-

Juli · 10/24/07, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by heel

Rogues are getting some pretty substantial buffs in 2.3. Holy priests are also getting a lot of love with Fear Ward for everyone and Chastise for Dwarves/Draenei.

Not sure I would call 3 min cooldown 3min duration fear ward "a lot of love" as far as arena is concerned. The current 30 second incarnation would be a lot of love, but with the 3 minute duration it means you enter the game ASAP, ward your target of choice, and have 1 refresh 2 minutes into the fight for most matches; nothing like what it is currently with 3 people warded out of the gate and a refresh every 30 seconds.

Chastise, on the other hand, is a whole lot of love. Not quite as great for shadow priests, but especially with the removal of GCD from dropping forms, I'm pretty sure this spell will be much loved by holy and shadow priests alike. I find it amusing that they are finally 'equalizing' the racials, except they nerfed the ability before giving it out, then gave dwarves something that has great potential to be even more powerful in pvp.

Originally Posted by heel

The one relevant druid buff (the shapeshifting change) was more of a UI streamlining thing to help players with high latency, and it definitely matters for shadow priests as well. Although druids are already unreasonably powerful, I can see the justification for this change.

I really see the druid change as completely necessary, and a long time coming. Every time I've played a druid, as far back as beta, I've gotten to about level 30 and said to friends, "Shifting feels too clunky, I'll try this class when they reduce the shifting penalty through the removal of GCD or shifting mana cost or both. They can nerf other abilities to compensate for the buff, but the class just feels broken like this".

...and now they finally have. I'll definitely be leveling my druid up the rest of the way come 2.3 experience changes (horde of course, god how I hate night elves).

Levidian · 10/24/07, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by Elendril

Aspect of the Viper is one of the most powerful mana regen abilities in arena, along with Feign Death/Drink.

What other class has to give up offensive for their mana regen? Everyone else gets theirs through fast acting spells, evocation/lifetap etc. AoTV is weak because we have basically zero passive regen. Its our ONLY source. other classes have spirit/talent mp5 + their active mana regens. Water shield, Life tap, evo, innervate etc.

AoTV can't even keep up an auto/steady rotation.

FDing to get out of combat isn't really that much of an advantage I'm using FD to help survive 95% of the time not to drink. I don't know about other Bgs but in Stormstrike hunters get attacked often. Most classes drop combat running to some LoS obstacle to drink anyway, and are OOC when they get to their spot.

Zure · 10/24/07, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Levidian

Replace Mage with hunter and that quote stands also.
We don't have spam CC, or a mana regain ability to help though.

What's your point? Hunters have a lot of handicaps in small brackers as well. I don't think anyone would contend that a class should be balanced around hunters, just the opposite. I mean, this is a class that probably shouldn't even have a mana pool to begin with; it was just a "we give up" change by blizzard when the focus model they had envisioned up for hunters failed!

On top of that, Blizzard has tried to fix hunter mana regen, by buffing aspect of the viper and by making water purchasable (you are the only mana-using class with an instant means of getting out of combat).

They should do the same sort of creative thinking for mages in my opinion. We have zero 5SR regen, since mage armor isn't viable for pvp, and speccing 20 points into arcane is a lot to ask for a class with one viable arena tree.

But there's no reason to stand on a soap box. I think I've made my point and you can either agree or disagree.

Aciara · 10/24/07, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Siddown

The issue that Resto druids are talking about is all the S3 gear is switching to Spirit Based mana regen, not Mp5. So a Druid will need to get out of the 5 second rule to get the same mana returns they received before, even with the buff to intensity. If you can get out of the 5 second rule quite a bit AND if Innervate isn't purged off the Druid, they'll actually have a better regen, but both of these scenarios become unlikely in 5v5 where druids are constantly casting and getting purged/dispelled/felhuntered.

This is exactly the point, we are getting a major pvp mana regen nerf next patch for 5on5/3on3 more so than 2on2 (because in 2s there isn't always a felhunter and/or you have more time to stay out of los so innervate (which everyone can see as a buff!) isn't dispelled instantly). Which is really strange considering 5on5 is the druids weakest bracket. So saying we're getting major buffs next patch which others aren't is in my humble opinion nonfactual.

On a totally different matter, how can healers getting +500-600 spelldamage not be called a "buff". I'm pretty sure it will change the face of some class combos not to mention their spec decisions.

Elendril · 10/24/07, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by Levidian

What other class has to give up offensive for their mana regen? Everyone else gets theirs through fast acting spells, evocation/lifetap etc. AoTV is weak because we have basically zero passive regen. Its our ONLY source. other classes have spirit/talent mp5 + their active mana regens. Water shield, Life tap, evo, innervate etc.

AoTV can't even keep up an auto/steady rotation.

FDing to get out of combat isn't really that much of an advantage I'm using FD to help survive 95% of the time not to drink. I don't know about other Bgs but in Stormstrike hunters get attacked often. Most classes drop combat running to some LoS obstacle to drink anyway, and are OOC when they get to their spot.

I'd argue that other classes often have to give up more offensively for their mana regen, because they have to take time to actively do it. Evo is on a long cooldown and is interruptable. Lifetap takes up global cooldowns (not to mention health), as does Water Shield. Innervate can be dispelled. AoTV trades 155 AP for a constant stream of mana, which can be as much as 150 mp5 when you're OOM. The grass is always greener, I suppose, but AotV is certainly not weak at all.

And I'm not claiming Feign-Drinking is a huge advantage, but it's certainly non-trivial, especially for NE hunters who can Feign-Drink-Shadowmeld in the middle of a fight without having to run behind a pillar.

frosty · 10/24/07, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Levidian

Replace Mage with hunter and that quote stands also.
We don't have spam CC, or a mana regain ability to help though.

Still hunters can adjust their playstyle with Viper Sting and have a pet that isn't affected by LOS.

And Zure had a very good point, even if other classes are hurt in a similar way (and it's not only hunters, i guess the same counts for ele shamans or oomkins too). I've been playing WOW for a very long time, but i was never frustrated by this game like i am when fighting like a spriest/lock or druid/lock team in 2v2 arenas. The arena designs with its LOS barriers are fine for 5v5 and pretty much ok for 3v3 imo, but it's really hard to have a significant impact on 2v2 matches as a mage, b/c a lot of spells are simply uncastable on a target that knows how to abuse the pillars.

I think the best solution would be to alter the three different arenas for each bracket, i.e. reduce the barriers, maybe completely exclude them for 2v2 - i still dunno why they are needed there, but maybe i overlook something significantly.

Regarding the mana dependency, i could imagine implementing mana-buffs like those regen-buffs in WSG or AB that spawn every 30sec. Would also add a new tactical element, although it's kinda Quake-like.