Something I haven't really seen much formal discussion on is arena map design. Some topics that should influence design are:

Line of Sight "abuse"
Is it too easy to duck line of sight in current maps? Are multi-level maps good or bad (Blade's Edge)? Will we see a true multi-level map with a whole second floor rather than just a bridge? How can they design interesting maps like this so that pets or ranged classes like mages aren't overly marginalized against melee or dot classes?

Size
Are the current maps the right size? Should we have different sized maps for different team size brackets or do basic mechanics rather than concentration of players completely dictate the size?

Bracket-independant Maps
Should all brackets share the same maps? What creative or interesting mechanics (that would be balanced) or designs could be applied in a 2v2 setting that wouldn't work for a 5v5 map?

Destructable Objects
WotLK promises the addition of destructable objects, will these types of things have any place in arena or should they keep it "pure"?

Interactive Environment
Similar to destructable objects, should there be parts of the environment that players can interact with such as teleporters? They already have the sight crystals, should things like this only be implemented to prevent abusive play (people hiding in stealth for 30 minutes to drag out games in hopes the other team leaves or waiting for cooldowns to cycle)?

There are a lot of things that could be done with maps that would freshen up arenas (I'm not tired of them completely yet, but the same 3 maps won't keep my interest forever). Obviously a lot of map design choices can have a profound impact on balance, but it's not something I see come up too often in balance discussions. Should arena be kept as pure as possible, staying as close to a flat open room with no obstacles as possible? Blizzard may decide not to release new maps for a long time, but if they do, what would you like to see in the next generation of maps?

In my opinion, arenas are supposed to be a way to prove which players can use their classes' abilities in combination with their teammates' abilities to beat an equal number of players.

The environment should not play a role in determining who wins and who loses.

I think Nagrand Arena is the best example of what an arena map should look like simply because it has the least amount of obstructions. All it has are the four pillars (around the outside) used to line of sight people in comparison to Lordaeron which has a coffin (or something) right in the middle where people should be fighting and not dancing over. It shouldn't be a test of what class can better navigate up the cracks and crevices of that coffin thing in order to get that rogue off of them. Blades Edge obviously has the most obstructions (pillars, bridge/2 tiers...) that can be used to the advantage of different classes depending on different situations.

The fact is that if it gets down to a 1v1 in any given arena, the player who knows how to better use the environment to their advantage could beat a player who, without those obstructions, would win. I don't think that's how the game should be.

But that also poses the question of does using the environment to your advantage make you a better player?

I believe that it does make you a better player -- adapting to your surroundings is an extremely smart playstyle.

But I do think there would be much different outcomes in arena matches if the surroundings didn't make a difference and were equal for everyone regardless of who you were matched up against. That's the way I think it should be.

Currently, arena environment is a large part of what keeps Hunters from the higher brackets. If the arena maps were changed to, say, Gurubashi arena, Hunter teams would win a much greater percentage of games they play. LoS + DZ + Blade's Edge pet kiting + etc. are all together really hard on us currently, and I'd love to see an arena map where all obstacles were removed in favor of a completely open playing environment. I think that was some of their intent with Lordaeron arena, but sadly the pillars around the central tomb along with our DZ/melee range if we're on top of the tomb didn't help Hunters on that specific map.

Anyways, less whine more on topic. :P I feel maps cannot be made too much larger, or it will be extremely detrimental for melee classes. Although endless kiting is good and fun for those of us who can do it, it makes it extremely tough for a melee class to finish anyone off if there's infinite distance (or even a very large distance) in one direction to run. And I don't think anyone wants any type of a maze type map, and all the issues that would bring with it.

Also, no to destructable/interactable objects in arena. Leave that for world PvP, where equality is already out of the equation to begin with.

LOS "abuse". I have toons that abuse and some that suffer. I definitely think there are too many and too large los obstacles which hinders ranged attackers. I like the strategy involved, however.

My vote would be to have a few smaller LOS obstacles that are destructable (the pillars in Nagrand are too big). So the ranged attackers who knew I'd be abusing los all match could just blow it down, which is an interesting short term cost for a long term benefit.

And clean up a map like Blades Edge. The los in there is ridiculously unpredictable.

In terms of two levels...sure. But all new maps should be "cleaner" and the starting areas should cause increasing damage to tick if you stay in them (electify the floors!).

Without the pillars/LOS obstacles, healers (and anyone else for that matter) would get absolutely ass raped; they are the only saving grace against gib/DPS teams.

I think the two-level approach taken in BEM is favorable, as opposed to the pillars in Nagrand. Although dealing with being kited, etc. up the ramps and targets jumping down to the ground in BEM is a hassle for me as a Warrior, I find that Arena to be the most challenging, and it appears to award the least direct benefits to certain classes or combinations thereof.

I think BEM without the massive pillar in the center (the 'bridge support' - just make it suspended?) would be an excellent map.

Lordaeron is my least favorite, if only because I do not believe any strategy that relies on running around a single LoS obstacle in the center of the Arena or hiding in your starting room should be viable or encouraged.

So, my order of preference currently would be:

BEM
Nagrand
RoL

If they were going to add a 'new' Arena, I think something fashioned after the Herod room in SM Armory, but symmetrical (ramps up both sides) and an X-shaped pair of bridges across the top would be interesting. It's advantageous to all classes to be on the upper level, but there's no LoS obstructions or escape routes - except to jump into the pit, where you would be in close quarters and forced to tactically escape your opponent and recover the high ground. Similarly, though, your opponents may a) choose not to follow you down, or b) be put in a compromising position if you are able to more adeptly maneuver out of the pit.

I can't disagree more. Nagrand is retarded, and all you have to do is watch a Warlock 1v2 there. The Pillars need to be rebalanced so you can only run around them in a single direction (this allows them

Lordaeron is fun when people actually play it. When people hide in their starting room (especially when they see my hunter partner) it is incredibly boring.

Blades Edge Mountain is almost perfect. The only part that I hate is that people will sit on both sides of the bridge daring each other to come out to fight.

Line of Sight is an important skill. The only time it becomes ridiculous is when someone can use it "endlessly" like I and others have done in Nagrand, when you can just endlessly run around the pillar healing and DoTing.

As for 1v1, it comes down to which class trumps the other class, it has very little to do with exploiting the terrain features except to get out of the way of a warrior charging you while you're trying to heal.

A lot of teams will stop to acquire targets, set focus targets, rework macros, etc. They're not standing there for the sake of standing there - they're planning.

In the live Arena events (e.g. 5's at BlizzCon, 3v3 WSVG), where the players already know their opponents names/classes/specs, this incubation period where everyone figures their targets out is unnecessary, since it's all done pre-game. That's why you'll see them ride straight out.



Back to maps, I absolutely agree that Nagrand and Lordaeron both offer very little in terms of tactical positioning choices. The hide'n'seek strategy favored by many healers/ranged DPS on Nagrand is not enjoyable or challenging for anyone involved.

Personally I'ld like to see more skill required to properly LoS. Basically the pillars in Nagrand shouldn't be the size of Rhode Island. You should have to be aware of your surroundings and LoS accordingly (the pikes at the edges of the ramps in Blade's Edge are a good example), not run behind this giant mass and be free from ranged terror.

Someone touched on this previously but it's worth expanding upon: if you have a flat, open space, a priest could get chewed straight to hell by a hunter very quickly. A BM hunter's pet is not insignificant damage, and when I am in BEM Arena on my priest, taking the pet for a jog off the bridge is my best chance of surviving.

In my opinion, the LoS element adds a whole new dimension to the game for healers. When can you jump down and kite, and when do you have to stay in and heal to keep your teammates up? I realize it's bad news bears for hunters, but hopefully issues like the Ruins of Lordaeron spawn room will be resolved before too long.

New and crazy arena designs just means more work trying to balance things. Having some areans with LoS obstacles and some without would be a disaster for balance. If it ain't broke*, don't fix it. That being said, I'd love to see something with some lava. I love lava.

*Arena layout does have some problems, but it's by no means 'broke'.

Ya doesn't even have to be damaging. Just glowy and stuff. Like a lava lamp!

Specifically what I'm talking about is at lower brackets (1600-1700), although it happens still in the higher levels, primarily with 2 healer teams. You run out, get up there, head out towards the center, and see a Warlock, Arc/Frost Mage, MS Warrior, Restoration Shaman, Holy Paladin standing there hiding behind the pillar with their totems. I don't know why they decide to turtle, it doesn't seem to help them do anything except make the game last longer. I'm guessing they decide its a good tactic because they've fought too many mana-limited dps groups such as PoM-Pyro Mages.

The reason so many Hunter teams are limited to outlast is specifically *because* of all the LoS issues in arena. If they were removed, Hunter/Priest wouldn't be one of the only viable 2v2 combinations, and single Hunter DPS teams might be able to kill another player without completely draining an opponent's mana pool (maybe).

And regarding Blade's Edge Arena. It's an absolute nightmare for Hunters, it is not the arena that requires the most "skill." Any map where my pet is unable to attack its target (and, consequently, makes me unable to drain said target for the most part) because the target can jump and it can't is not particularly skillful, it's broken. And the LoS on that map is...bleh. For a melee class, perhaps it's not as noticeable, but the region right next to the columns at the ends of the bridge is a combination of two LoS + short range nightmares: Elevation and Columns. Absolute nightmare if an opponent kites around those columns an entire match.

Future arena maps must share basic features common across the existing arenas. Why? Because the development team has already balanced around these features. Many people can think of scenarios where the strength and weaknesses of certain classes change with the terrain (and already have in this thread). Classes have been and will be adjusted as their prevalence in each arena bracket rises and falls.

Having said this, had each arena been nothing but a flat, open plain with different background textures, a completely different host of balance changes would have occurred based on how classes performed under these different circumstances. What happens when no one can line-of-sight a crowd control ability? What happens when it becomes much easier to interrupt drinking? More than likely, healers and mana-dependent classes would have seen a vastly different slew of balance changes to aid them in arenas.

Like Mex has already pointed out, adding arenas that differ from the current maps in any significant way only creates more problems for the development team and hinders their endeavor to create a balanced system. Thus, it is important that there be no arena maps designed for underrepresented classes in mind, and that no further changes to the existing maps occur. Edit: It's important to point out that many people in this thread have issues with how certain classes perform in different types of terrain, notably hunters in the existing arenas. Few people would doubt that this negatively affects hunter popularity in arenas. But, people also need to be aware that balance issues must be dealt with from within changes to the class itself. Adding new arenas to address specific class problems or overhauling each existing arena to address specific class problems is not the solution. Changes to arenas of that nature affect much more than one class.

Let's get back on topic.

Moreover, uncontrollable or otherwise outside influences to a match have already proved to be poor additions to an arena map (see Nagrand tornado).

Based on this, we now have a reasonably good framework for what types of arena maps would be suitable for implementation. Let's review. An arena map needs the following qualities:

• approximately equivalent size as current maps.
• adequate line of sight structure(s) that provides drinking ability.
• items to prevent abusive behavior, with or without some small penalty (shadowsight).
• and most importantly, a lack of uncontrollable elements.

Let's start off. Here we have a winter map, with two solid-ice walls that provide line-of-sight on all four sides. In addition, the center of the field is a large, low-elevation snow-mound, used mostly for asthetics, with the added psychological factor to promote gameplay in the center of the field. (Additional clarification -- the mound would not be tall enough to allow for such tactics such as jumping off in cheetah form and shifting mid-air, allowing fast movement and caster form to occur simultaneously.)



It is important to remember that a wall such as this necessitates structures on the ends to disable line-of-sight. Otherwise, many fights could take place near these walls with ranged casters on the ends of the obstacles, mostly uninhibited by line-of-sight mechanics. This type of wall-structure should be able to allow casters to drink when necessary, but perhaps not allow enough cover for infinite line-of-sight kiting (see druids in cheetah form kiting around a Nagrand pillar.)

I'm a big proponent of using elevation as LOS tools. Instead of a wall or giant structure that clearly forces someone around it, a landmark that is at an elevation advantage provides LOS for people on opposite sides while at the same time allows traversing directly across it to deny LOS. Ruins of Loarderon provides this with the tomb mechanic, although traversing it requires two awkward jumps and it is still structured too much like a wall (90 degree sides provide LOS cover sometimes even if you are nearly underneath your opponent).

Small mountains, ramps, or platforms are all good mechanisms of this. For example, Darceidus's map with the central mound tall enough to prevent someone from looking on the other side would be good. Or a map with a deep trench or ditch that you can only get out of at the edges, with bridges across (inverse blade's edge so to speak).

Also, one imporant but annoying thing about arena design is that currently pets can not jump, so any break in terrain is a big disadvantage towards pet classes. As a healer I welcome this, but it does seem a little on the exploit side of things. If this were fixed I feel multi-level maps would be a lot more viable, and not necessarily multi-level with people able to stand underneath others like blade's edge but simply something other than a flat peice of land.

The bizarre places that gnomes lose LOS are one of my biggest frustrations. One of the worst is the bridge in BEM. If someone is on top of the pillars they will lose los to gnomes that move close to the ramps due to those tiny ledges at the sides of the bridge.

Or advantages, depending on your class type. ;D

Does anyone here actually like Ruins of Lordaeron? On both my Druid and my Shaman, I loathe it, and the fluff tombs on the sides that you cannot actually LoS through are utterly idiotic.

It's certainly an improvement over Blade's Edge, but I find it interesting that most people seem to prefer Nagrand. Even with the pillar kiting that ensues, its simplicity seems to be its winning trait.

For lower brackets, I think RoL is the best Arena if you take away the weird starting area's. The fact that you are able to pull someone in the open (in front of the starting area) but to far away from a LoS-able place (the tombstone). I think Nagrand just needs to have 1 pillar removed so people can 'pull' people in the open. Not always to force a kill but to get a healer out in the open.

More maps, some with more LOS, others with less - maybe even a maze type map where you can't see the opposing team until you come right up on them. I'd like to actually be happy/sad when we get a certain map, instead I just say "Oh good, Lordaeron drinkspam time."

Hopefully Blizzard creates more maps in both directions of extremes, less/more obstacles and gives us real reasons to be happy or pissed that we pulled a certain map vs. a certain team makeup.