The Fear Problem--2300 Warlock's Perspective - Page 5

Calantus · 11/04/07, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by TheCutlery

I reckon we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on that point. I think it's kinda obvious that there's 2 different camps here and neither of us are making headway on making the other see our point of view.

Seeing as how a well geared warlock is about the only thing I'm hesitant about on my warrior now, and Fear is useless vs me, I really don't see it being that big of a deal.

That's 1v1, and yes I'm sure if warlocks lost fear they would still do well enough in 1v1. In a group however, every person has to justify their place on the team and "I'm pretty good in a duel" doesn't get you a spot in a 5v5 lineup. Right now I'd say a significant % of a warlock's duties in 5v5 at least is fearing. CoT healers, damage the main target(s), and fear are the main roles of a warlock, with other roles depending on your team makeup and your spec. You can't just take away ~1/3rd of a class' worth and expect them to be fine unless they were severely overpowered to begin with.

Kasi · 11/04/07, 12:48 PM

Which they are due to their plethora of other poisitives like increased health, healing, drain life/mana, many instant cast spells, etc. One thing I always was confused about was why do warlocks get to use their instant cast spells on mobs behind them while on my shaman I must be facing someone to shock them? I think taking away fear would be too much, but reducing its effectiveness (in the warlock's single target case anyway) is something that should be done.

Irox · 11/04/07, 4:55 PM

Not sure if this has been said before, but with a BoSac on your mate any paladin would be pretty much immune to warlock fears.

• sadris · 11/04/07, 6:41 PM

I am not sure why everyone keeps bringing up "massive health pools" as a strength of the class. Protection warriors have massive HP totals too, but that doesn't make them useful.

By contrast, mages have relatively small HP totals, but no one ever attacks them first due to FN and IB. For a warlock, they can't do anything once a rogue or warrior starts attacking them except delete their healers' mana and cast instant dots, which are promptly dispelled.

As Blizzard has already stated, they balance arenas around 5v5, so your experiences with getting fear-deleted in 2v2/v3 is irrelevant. Classes have to be desirable in 5v5 primarily.

Dismissal · 11/04/07, 8:02 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

I am not sure why everyone keeps bringing up "massive health pools" as a strength of the class. Protection warriors have massive HP totals too, but that doesn't make them useful.

As Blizzard has already stated, they balance arenas around 5v5, so your experiences with getting fear-deleted in 2v2/v3 is irrelevant. Classes have to be desirable in 5v5 primarily.[/quote]

Explain to me how massive hp pools are not a strength? I just explained how hp is a defining stat in arena combat... I proved this by citing the way arena gear (which the top arena pvp'ers use in the majority of their slots) is highly itemized towards stamina. Warlock's get MORE HP per stamina than every other class's competitive arena spec.

Originally Posted by sadris

By contrast, mages have relatively small HP totals, but no one ever attacks them first due to FN and IB. For a warlock, they can't do anything once a rogue or warrior starts attacking them except delete their healers' mana and cast instant dots, which are promptly dispelled.

Actually... 5v5 combat has evolved to a point where focusing mages is the Premiere strategy... because when mages are focused their small hp pools become a extreme liability, coupled with the fact that inorder to do dmg while being focus'ed they have to resort to mana inefficient methods of doing damage.

A warlock, while being focused can still -

CC - Fear comes with 50% pushback resistance, COT is insantcast, Affliction locks can Howl of Terror instantly, and of course there is always Deathcoil.

Damage - Corruption, Siphon life, Curse of Agony, are all instant cast. Drain life/mana both can be talented to 100% no pushback with concentration aura easily.

Mages while focused -

CC - Polymorph is all but impossible, frost nova is usable, but shares heavy diminishing returns with water elemental's nova and entangling roots.

Damage - Mages are reduced to fireblast, and icelance on nova'ed targets. They lose the ability to cast frostbolt, the biggest and burstiest portion of their dps.

• sadris · 11/04/07, 9:33 PM

At no point did I ever say that massive HP pools AREN'T a strength. I said that you can't justify a warlock's spot on a 5v5 team based on HP alone.

Kasi · 11/04/07, 9:58 PM

And it would be ludricrous to think that even without fear that they don't bring more to arena than most other dps classes.

Edit: To elaborate more. Least dependant ranged class on LoS. Can either be specced for massive survivibility or to suppress cleansing. Can be effective as dps on burst teams, outlast teams or balanced teams. One of the few classes capable of mana draining. Give healing in the form of healthstones to their teams. Have a single target terror and an aoe fear. And not to mention pets. Which is why that a change to fear to not allow a person to be kill/kited is not going to break warlocks.

Jitta · 11/05/07, 2:00 PM

Originally Posted by Irox

Not sure if this has been said before, but with a BoSac on your mate any paladin would be pretty much immune to warlock fears.

I have not noticed this making me "immune" to fear. Could you expand on that a bit? If taking 3K in DoT damage doesn't break the fear, I don't see how 12pts a tic from BoSac is going to do much.

TheCutlery · 11/05/07, 4:08 PM

Originally Posted by Calantus

Right now I'd say a significant % of a warlock's duties in 5v5 at least is fearing. CoT healers, damage the main target(s), and fear are the main roles of a warlock, with other roles depending on your team makeup and your spec. You can't just take away ~1/3rd of a class' worth and expect them to be fine unless they were severely overpowered to begin with.

Explain to me how changing fears effect to "Target loses control of itself, stands terrified in place, breaks on damage" would take away 1/3 of that class's worth.

Seriously. I wanna hear this. Is it because damage breaks CC? Why are you damaging the CC'd target? Is polymorph useless? Polymorph does this exact thing.

At no point in this entire discussion has anyone ever given a GOOD reason why this change is unfeasible. Because of fear breaks? Seriously? So instead of not running around because I broke fear, I don't stand still? I don't get it, and no one can explain to me exactly why that change alone would cripple the warlock class entirely. "Oh mages can nuke, we gotta wait for slow ticking DOT's to do the work, it's not the same, we NEED that." Yeah, would be horrible to run 30 yards away from a rooted target, load them up with insta cast DoT's and start running. You'd never be able to win that battle, huh?

Sorry, I just don't see it. You guys wanna keep bringing this down to 1v1 or 2v2 situations and that's just not it at all. You can change fear to be like every other CC in the game and it would be FINE. Any resistance to that change is knowing full well that you can do damage to people while they don't have control of their character, and you don't want to give that up.

Zaq · 11/05/07, 4:27 PM

I think it's you who don't seem to understand Mr.UndeadWarrior. Fear is different from other CC's because warlocks are different then mages, especially defensively. Many of these arguements came up when Blizz looked into changing deathcoil from it's initially worthless design. The result is that warlocks have very limited defensive or control abilities. Fear's allowing damage accounts for this. It's not a good thing or a bad thing that it does this, but fear's current structuring most assurdly takes into account that warlocks are not mages.

Originally Posted by TheCutlery

Any resistance to that change is knowing full well that you can do damage to people while they don't have control of their character, and you don't want to give that up.

I really take issue to this. Every class does damage by removing the ability of other classes to avoid it. Taking control away via Hamstring+intercept or Crippling+Stuns or w/e. Fear is certianly different from those abilities, but it's hardly unique in changing the control of the situation.

Kasi · 11/05/07, 5:19 PM

It's because those two classes are melee. They need to stun and hamstring to keep physical range so they can do something at all. Look at how Enhancement Shamans who are similarily powerful in melee and are arguably better against casters do so badly because Frost Shock is not as powerful for maintaining physical distance, and once they lose range they have no way to get it back.

Amongst ranged dps classes (mages, locks, ele shamans, boomkins, shadow priests, hunters) Warlocks are unique in being able to deal dps to a target they are CC'ing. Hunters and mages can Frost nova and scatter shot, but those break upon damage. But still why does that matter much? Even without fear a warlock can solo any class.

Silver_Surfer · 11/05/07, 5:51 PM

Originally Posted by Kasi

It's because those two classes are melee. They need to stun and hamstring to keep physical range so they can do something at all. Look at how Enhancement Shamans who are similarily powerful in melee and are arguably better against casters do so badly because Frost Shock is not as powerful for maintaining physical distance, and once they lose range they have no way to get it back.

Amongst ranged dps classes (mages, locks, ele shamans, boomkins, shadow priests, hunters) Warlocks are unique in being able to deal dps to a target they are CC'ing. Hunters and mages can Frost nova and scatter shot, but those break upon damage. But still why does that matter much? Even without fear a warlock can solo any class.

That's entirely gear dependent. I have a lock I just got to 70 and have hardly and gear on and I flat out get pwned by warriors, rogues and undead.

Vesarius · 11/05/07, 6:10 PM

Originally Posted by TheCutlery

Explain to me how changing fears effect to "Target loses control of itself, stands terrified in place, breaks on damage" would take away 1/3 of that class's worth.

Seriously. I wanna hear this. Is it because damage breaks CC? Why are you damaging the CC'd target? Is polymorph useless? Polymorph does this exact thing.

At no point in this entire discussion has anyone ever given a GOOD reason why this change is unfeasible. Because of fear breaks? Seriously? So instead of not running around because I broke fear, I don't stand still? I don't get it, and no one can explain to me exactly why that change alone would cripple the warlock class entirely. "Oh mages can nuke, we gotta wait for slow ticking DOT's to do the work, it's not the same, we NEED that." Yeah, would be horrible to run 30 yards away from a rooted target, load them up with insta cast DoT's and start running. You'd never be able to win that battle, huh?

Sorry, I just don't see it. You guys wanna keep bringing this down to 1v1 or 2v2 situations and that's just not it at all. You can change fear to be like every other CC in the game and it would be FINE. Any resistance to that change is knowing full well that you can do damage to people while they don't have control of their character, and you don't want to give that up.

Fair enough, you want fear to be identical to polymorph, why a warrior (undead no less) would be bawling about fear is beyond my understanding but lets go with that. You'd feel ok with adding some more escape methods for warlocks as well then? like frost nova blink iceblock stuff like that?

How is fear any different then stun again? Oh right, fear actually shares DR timers, stun doesn't. Fear can break early, stun can't. Lets do the same thing for stun then? breaks on damage. Sounds great - where do i sign?

• Mex · 11/05/07, 6:43 PM

Originally Posted by TheCutlery

At no point in this entire discussion has anyone ever given a GOOD reason why this change is unfeasible.

Yes, they have. You just appear to have ignored it though ...

Edit: The point was of course that it would destabilise the rest of the warlock's game, because it's a core part of their solo playstyle.

Kullulu · 11/05/07, 7:22 PM

As previously stated, I'm not comfortable on how fear potentially can run your target very far away from the action, in pve and pvp. The suggestions on fixing fear seem to be high handed. Nobody is saying "remove mace spec from the game, or damage cap all stuns."

I'd ask that we refrain from listing every ability a class has that is good, and then saying "removing X skill won't change anything, they still have lots of good abilities!" The debate has degraded into various self serving postures that no longer look for a viable solution that the playerbase will accept.

Edit: My solution would be to just decrease the maximium range a target is able to run while feared slightly. Potentially the change would make tremor totem increasingly useful if targets weren't immediately feared outside the range of the totem's effects.

Calantus · 11/05/07, 7:43 PM

Originally Posted by TheCutlery

Explain to me how changing fears effect to "Target loses control of itself, stands terrified in place, breaks on damage" would take away 1/3 of that class's worth.

Seriously. I wanna hear this. Is it because damage breaks CC? Why are you damaging the CC'd target? Is polymorph useless? Polymorph does this exact thing.

If you go back a couple posts to my orginal post in this thread you will note that I was replying to someone who said "Remove the spell fear from warlocks". As in entirely remove the spell.

Kasi · 11/05/07, 8:48 PM

Well obviously don't do that. That's way too much. I think just increase the chance that fear breaks on damage would be enough. It wouldn't affect warlocks solo play, and if they put the number high enough, it wouldn't be much of an issue for a warlock. Heck it doesn't even have to be based off a damage amount. Why not make it that if a target takes 1000 dps on them it breaks? Or some figure that most warlocks wouldn't get to with just dots but make it impossible for in a 5v5 for a target to get feared to death with 4 targets beating on him.

Calantus · 11/05/07, 9:07 PM

I think any change should make the spell more reliable. Randomness in the spell doesn't help anybody as the victim will get times when they are feared forever under heavy damage and sometimes they will break instantly with a corruption tick. Neither is fair. I think "chance to break" is as terrible a mechanic as "chance to stun" honestly. A set amount of damage before it breaks (like seed of corruption) or make it break automatically on direct damage but not in DoTs (like aspect of the cheetah) would be the kinds of things I'd be looking at it if it was up to me.

Making it break on all damage like polymorph seems a bit off to me since it's obvious the spell was designed and given to 2 DoT classes precisely to be used to CC a target while they're DoTed up.

Talaii · 11/05/07, 9:14 PM

Originally Posted by TheCutlery

Explain to me how changing fears effect to "Target loses control of itself, stands terrified in place, breaks on damage" would take away 1/3 of that class's worth.

Seriously. I wanna hear this. Is it because damage breaks CC? Why are you damaging the CC'd target? Is polymorph useless? Polymorph does this exact thing.

Mages damage is based around nukes, warlocks is based around dots. To polymorph someone as a mage, you have to maybe wait 4 seconds for the fireball dot to wear off then sheep them. It requires about 2.5 secconds of planning (+cast time of polymorph) from the nuke hitting to getting a target sheeped, or none if you are frost.

Warlocks damage (unless destruction) is based around dots. One of these, a fairly major one, has a 30-second duration. If fear broke on any damage, a warlock would have to decide a good 30 seconds in advance (at least 18, since they'll be using corurption and/or UA) who they were going to fear, and even then, one miscast onthe wrong target will render that person almost immune to fear for a good 30 seconds.

If you're going to make fear break on any damage, you at least need to give an affliction warlock some method of removing dots - the cost of leaving someone open to fear would simply never be worth it, at least as a defensive option. Most other classes have defensive options that aren't completely negated for long periods of time by you casting a single spell.

Oh, and the fear "break on damage" isn't completely unique, as far as I'm aware entangling roots works in the same way. My proposed solution would be to take the approximate dps of Curse of Agony and Corruption and make fear break on 10 seconds of that dps (scaling with spell damage, or it would be useless in high-end gear), with maybe a deep affliction talent to give it a little extra kick; say enough for siphon to hold as well, and then remove damage checks.

Calantus · 11/05/07, 10:27 PM

Freeze effects are also chance to break IIRC. I wasn't trying to make out like it was unique to fear.

Dismissal · 11/05/07, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by Talaii

Warlocks damage (unless destruction) is based around dots. One of these, a fairly major one, has a 30-second duration. If fear broke on any damage, a warlock would have to decide a good 30 seconds in advance (at least 18, since they'll be using corurption and/or UA) who they were going to fear, and even then, one miscast onthe wrong target will render that person almost immune to fear for a good 30 seconds.

If you're going to make fear break on any damage, you at least need to give an affliction warlock some method of removing dots - the cost of leaving someone open to fear would simply never be worth it, at least as a defensive option. Most other classes have defensive options that aren't completely negated for long periods of time by you casting a single spell.

So a way to remove this 30 second dot... like switching curse of agony off when you apply any other curse?

Holy crap! A warlock would not be able to faceroll dot every living object in his 40 yard range and still be able to cc better than their thre-weaker counterparts, mages!

I don't see where warlocks get the impression - without fear, were defenseless!! Honestly? Someone care to clarify?

Kullulu · 11/05/07, 11:32 PM

Siphon life 30 seconds, not agony. At this point, you're better off just not posting in what was originally a constructive thread. You're clearly in the mood for someone to argue with, rather than problem solve.

Vesarius · 11/06/07, 8:04 AM

Originally Posted by Dismissal

So a way to remove this 30 second dot... like switching curse of agony off when you apply any other curse?

Holy crap! A warlock would not be able to faceroll dot every living object in his 40 yard range and still be able to cc better than their thre-weaker counterparts, mages!

I don't see where warlocks get the impression - without fear, were defenseless!! Honestly? Someone care to clarify?

Next time you arena, don't use frost nova, iceblock, blink, frost armor or polymorph

That's what a warlock is like without fear. Let me know what you think.

Aciara · 11/06/07, 9:20 AM

Originally Posted by Mex

Yes, they have. You just appear to have ignored it though ...

Edit: The point was of course that it would destabilise the rest of the warlock's game, because it's a core part of their solo playstyle.

This so called core part of their solo playstyle is only used when farming obscene amounts of mobs (and isn't even necessary to do so) or when farming high level elites which nearly no other can solo so easily.

But as this is the pvp section of these boards maybe we could put this asid and just focus on an argumentation of the pvp aspect?

As such getting feared with a full assist train on oneself doesn't happen alot, but I think the same as many people have stated before: this should never happen no matter what because it's as game breaking as getting chain stunned by a solo warrior which is also getting altered with 2.3.
In the pvp game the fairest change imho would be the straight forward damagecap I don't know if it's possible but I wouldn't change the current pve mechanic.
The damagecap idea would allow the warlock to still cc + drain someone but not to load all the dots and still have him locked in the fear. On the other hand this change would also benifit warlocks (at least in my opinion) as they would finaly have some stability with their cc.

Darkmantle · 11/06/07, 9:29 AM

I leveled a warlock starting from almost release. I feared a bajillion mobs in that time plenty of them were 1v1 non elites. Yes I could have leveled with just a voidwalker but voidwalkers suck and it's as dull as shit. It was a core part of my leveling from 1-60 and from 60-70.