Jimmy the hunter (assuming he's fairly casual) would likely see a huge gain in his honor earned even if it takes him 5-10 matches to actually win one because he's not in the position to be 3/4/5 capping at all. For those that want to steamroll you could still earn 400 or something honor per win, so if you really wanted you could still grind honor, it would just have a large ROI dropoff after that first win.

I like this also because it seems to fit in with Blizzard's idea behind daily quests -- trying to discourage the outright 12-hour-a-day grinding that gets people way ahead of others (and compelling others to feel like they need to do huge grinds just to keep up).

For their main, probably, but for someone with 2 or 3 alts I simply don't have enough free time (and I have a pretty good amount of free time) to grind 100k honor for each of them.

You keep coming out with the claim that random peon X will still eventually win a game though, the reality is that he could very well end up with nothing from a day or even several day's play, thats not the ideal way to keep people playing.

What they need to do is introduce an entry level set that you could very quickly get from completing a series of relevant quests in the various battlegrounds, basically the old marhsall's gear with resilience on it or something along those lines. The set wouldn't be uber, but it would give people a nice boost in the same way that some of the early hellfire quests gave a big boost to those that needed it the most and to get this set they would have had to complete tasks that were relevant to playing that BG properly, so it would be like a tutorial with decent rewards.

Agreed, an entry set that was *cheap* (maybe even just a gold cost to it) that could only be used in BGs (so that it didn't have PvE tuning ramifications) would be great. Let people start on equal footing in BGs and arenas upon hitting the level cap so that they at least have a fighting chance if they play well. I don't really pvp all that much, its not my interest. But from time to time I'll pop in and its discouraging to get ripped apart so fast because I don't have S2 or S3 gear, and I have nowhere near the amount of time available to grind out honor items to even be able to compete in the arenas.

Honestly, what I think needs to be done is just have arena matches yield some amount of honor for playing.. 50 honor, 100 honor, whatever per game.. it would allow those "worried about arena gear" to just play more than their 10 minimum games to get the rewards they want for arenas, while still allowing everyone else to just BG for fun or whatever.

Buying PvP gear with honor doesn't need to be removed, but you need a way to arena to your full arena set at the same time.

To make this worse, I just realized that you can no longer buy season 2 honor gear for the discounted price any more -- other than the rings, the vendor no longer exists. So now I'm not even able to bootstrap my way into some decent resilience gear (buy season 2 now, skip season 3 and bank some honor, buy season 4) like I was planning.

I'm forced to go straight from netherstorm-quested greens to best-pvp-gear-in-the game. What a terrible decision.

Somebody mentioned that the honor system is broken, and that it should be done away with. I have to disagree. The honor system is merely a currency system, not broken in-and-of-itself, but the method of gaining that currency is broken.

Diminishing Returns devalues PvP, while requiring tokens rewards grinding and fails to devalue AFKing, which is the exact opposite of what the BGs need to do. Blizzard needs to remove the encouragement to AFK and grind, and reward PvP.

I propose Blizzard remove the Diminishing Returns. DR was implemented to prevent groups from grinding specific players for honor. The reinforcements rule accomplishes the same feat, without diminishing the value of PvP. Hard-fought games need to reward the players for PvP, not punish them.

Secondly, it’s the token system that’s broken, not honor. The token system only requires you to be in a BG at the end, it doesn’t require you to participate. An all-or-nothing approach isn’t going to help the problem, it just means that people won’t get gear from the battlegrounds where their Battlegroup consistently loses.

But turn this around. Remove the winning/losing as the primary objective of a BG. Make each token tradable for 100 Honor (random number, used as a baseline in my examples). Winners in a BG get 2 tokens, and losers get 1 token. Double the number of tokens on a BG weekend. Increase the honor required for items by 100 per token, and then drop the token requirement.

With the removal of DR and no token requirement, you can just join the BGs you like. If you don’t participate, you only get the one token if your side loses, 2 if your team wins (100/200 honor). At 100 honor per game, it’s 120 games to get bracers. It’s not worth it. So, the value goes back to PvP, without punishing PvP. Furthermore, if you increase the honor gained by killing players by 10% on a BG weekend, you now have a massive incentive to PvP, and try to win.

That’s the overall proposal, but there are issues with each battleground that could be addressed individually as well.
I would propose removing the zone-wide honor gained from capping objectives, which would further reduce the incentive to AFK. To compensate, each BG could have some per-kill bonus honor, or bonus honor when you’re near a flag that is capping. This, combined with other changes below, would encourage participation.

AV could remove the automatic win for killing Drek/Vandarr, and cut the reinforcements loss for a tower by 50% (random number). Now a rush to the end doesn’t buy you max honor. You still have to kill the other players, but there is an advantage to capping. The losing side has incentive to fight, because they get honor for kills.

AB/EotS should cut victory points by 50% for owning nodes, but each PvP kill nets 2 (random number) VPs. So there is an advantage to capping, but it’s not the end-goal. The kills also benefit the losing side, because they gain honor by defending the node, and fighting for every inch of ground. Again, reward participating, not AFKing just to get a token.

I don’t know what to do with WSG (I hate that place). It’s just too gear and premade imbalanced in my opinion. At a minimum, put a time or reinforcements limit on the game to prevent graveyard camping/honor farming. But the removal of DR and the token requirement can even make WSG viable, because you can just go out and kill people.

Even with these ideas, there are a couple issues to deal with.

#1 – people are always going to game the system. What can I say. Nothing is perfect, and people will always work to the measurement. But, give them a little incentive to partake, and things change dramatically.

#2 – These suggestions don’t reward standing around guarding a flag. You’re right, they don’t. But nothing is perfect, and I can’t see why we should reward somebody for standing around, because it encourages standing around. On the other hand, this system does reward small teams roving around to capture/retake flags.

But look at what we’ve done. We removed most of the reward and incentive for AFKing. We’ve reduced the value of BG objectives, but not so much that they’re not worth going after. By increasing the honor for kills, we’ve slightly increased the honor from BGs, making it easier to get gear by PvPing, while removing a chunk of the grind. We’ve made it so people can play the BGs they like. Less AFK + Less Grind + More PvP + BGs you like = more fun.

By the time S4 gear comes out which is better than Illidan drops, Sunwell will be out which is better in turn. Arena at season's ends has always been influenced heavily by PVE. T3 blacksmithing weapons in S1, Haste/AP gear plus BT weapons in S2, and it will be Sunwell weapons/gear in S3. Heck even with S3 weapons being out only a few classes get their best weapon for PVP from PVP. If anything its the same as ever. Still favored towards raiding. Raiding is hardly going to die out.

Why is this unreasonable? When I finish leveling my new horde mage to 70, I expect I'll be just as competent at pvping with the mage class as I was on my alliance 70 mage. Why should I not have the same rating?

Gear and stat improvement is a great model for a role-playing game, but max level pvp has advanced beyond the realm of role-playing. It's clearly been fashioned into a head-to-head competitive mini-game, much like any shooter or fighter before it, except with the unique twist of using RPG mechanics instead of guns or fists. Personally I love it. But 'building up a character' in a head-to-head game simply does not work, and has never been a necessary motivator for play in competitive games before. Immensely popular games like counterstrike, starcraft, warcraft never relied on RPG character building mechanics over a long period of time to generate and maintain interest, and attract millions of players. Why should WoW pvp be any different?

The bottom line is, in a head-to-head game, gear based progression promotes and encourages unfair competition. There is no mechanic in the game right now that weights arena point gain, arena rating, or honor acquisition against gearing level. Being a fresh 70 in bad gear is essentially just playing with a massive handicap, and absolutely no matching against others with that handicap, or recognition that you are playing with a handicap in the first place. In a sense the game doesn't really start until you're at or close to the gear line of long-term mains. For an alt, reroll, late-comer or anything in between the system is incredibly painful. It would be like setting up a raid fully geared in dungeon blues to fight Illidan, with Illidan having all the same stats as he does tuned for T6. The kill may be possible, but it is certainly not fair to expect from any player, and would only be fun for those who volunteer for the incredible challenge.

Solutions: Weight divisions, similar to wrestling, in which undergeared fresh 70s simply do not compete against gladiator geared players. Ever. This keeps the RPG progression aspect while also maintaining a fair competition for everyone. I don't find this solution ideal because it's still creating an arbitrary boundary between players for no technical reason, however it does keep the "grind" in the mmo and so is less likely to get the blizzard devs in trouble if something goes horribly wrong.

Radical (perhaps) solution: Remove gearing from the equation entirely for bgs and arenas. Players who zone in are outfitted in a temporary suit of max level pvp gear to promote fair competition. Rewards issued do not affect the bg/arena competition, but may be significant in some other way. For example, you could still earn arena gear to be used in dungeons and world pvp, ala the game proper, by winning arena matches.

I've had an idea for a while, that I really haven't thought out completely.

Essentially, separate out those with crap gear compared to those that have better gear. You are evaluated when you are asked into a BG and your gear can't change--- there is some way to accomplish this I have no doubt.

If you have 3 greens, perhaps almost no resilience, you don't get put in with the higher end purple peeps. Maybe separate out those with good PvE gear, but no resilience, from those with good resilience gear too.

The one down side might be on servers where there are que times. Haven't worked my way around this yet.

I swear there are plenty of BG's where I inspect at the beginning and hope Horde doesnt' have decent PvP gear on the other side. Rogues in green daggers, warrirors in prot gear, oh my (give them a couple free respects each week, holy crap).


Edit: I am also aware some classes prefer some PvE gear, with minimal resilience. Perhaps Holy Pallys for example. I haven't worked my way around this one yet either. Suck it up I guess.

There *is* a gear-matching system currently in place. When you queue, it attempts to place you with similarly-geared players, and against opponents who queued the same way you did, either solo or as a group.

It's a loose system though, as the more restrictive it is the longer the queue times become. So yeah, players in all greens will still occasionally meet the epic'd out premade.

Maybe I should go neked, que, and then put my gear on once I get into the BG.

The system stinks anyway if it is in place. I have a feeling it only applies to people in the que, and will only make the choices if there is more in teh que than the BG requires. Perhaps not. It's not working though.

I've literally spent a few days while in WSG/EotS/AB looking up horde peeps on Armory after a match to see their gear, inspecting alliance peeps. The gear difference is just glairing at times, and matches reflect it. Yes, I have way to much free time on my hands.

Anyway. Least my idea wasn't a bad one. :p

edit: I am sure my searches weren't statistically accurate either.

Another idea is to keep a record of the total amount of honor points and arena points earned on a particular character. Average that out over everyone on the team and set different tiered values. Once the team's average HP/AP surpasses a value, they move up into a better geared bracket.

There are certain complications with this, of course like hybrids with multiple gear sets and ensuring that there enough teams in each tier for competition to occur, but it could be a start.

I'd say add something like the ability to throw the flag to teammates within say 10 yards. However, if there is an opponent between you and the catcher, the flag gets stolen by the other team. You can also keep the flag, but as soon as you die the flag drops just like in normal WSG.

Going naked shouldn't work; the system in place supposedly grabs the best item you have for each slot out of all of your possessions. But there's a definite trade-off between optimal matches and queue times (wait for a better gear match to enter the queue, or start the BG?), and it probably errs on the side of shorter queues.

There's also a gear-matching system in place in the arenas - your rating. If your gear is crap, you'll lose, which will knock your rating down to the point where you're fighting other people with crap gear (or good gear and no skill, or poor class composition, etc.).

As for why we can't have Counterstrike-style gameplay in WoW... CS didn't work on a monthly subscription model. Gear matters because that's the hamster wheel that keeps most people playing. Getting good gear takes time because they want us to keep paying to play. As it is, I think Blizzard has done a good job catering to newcomers by making "outdated" arena armor & weapons (which generally aren't much worse than the new stuff) available at a discount or without even having to do arenas at all.

Because WoW *is* an RPG game, building mechanics over a long period of time to generate and maintain interest, and attracting millions of players?

WoW has always been about what gear you have, and to a lesser extent, how you chose to develop your character (spec, skill).

Any moron playing a mace-spec'd rogue in S2/3 will not find anyone in quest greens a significant challenge. This a gear-based MMO. You get gear so you can get gear, so you can get gear, so you can get gear, so you can get gear, ad infinitum.

Battlegrounds are still fun, even in lousy gear, in small doses, and assuming you can get random people thrown together to *work* together. THAT is the difference between a well-played, close match, and a steamroll.

Unfortunately, as in all online games, teamwork is something that has to be forced, and not the default mode. It still amazes me that after what, 2 years - there are still Horde-mates fighting in the choke-hold up to SP GY. There are still 3-5 people 'defending' AB's Blacksmith, but fighting on the bridge to farm (and losing the flag).

Everyone just soloes together...

And yet when Blizzard decides to show off PvP as an E-Sport, what do they do? They give all the contestants pre-made sets of gear, not the gear that they have on their real characters. They level the playing field in their tournaments so that the match is supposedly only about 'skill' and not the gear. So why isn't that at least somewhat followed in the live game?

Regarding WoW as an e-sport, 2.4 is supposed to "Blizzard has big plans to increase the e-sport acceptance of the Arena games." via Worldofraids forums :: Sunwell Plateau and Patch 2.4 news from Acaciaizm.com Blog Archive New Sunwell Details; Kael’Thas Back – Part 1

They'll probably announce the details of whatever deal they've worked out with GameRiot. Last I heard, GameRiot was asking for their own event realm to run tournaments on with premade characters.

I would be happy if Blizzard at least made an attempt to balance BG's between the two sides every game. It's extremely frustrating when you feel like you're losing (or sometimes winning) a game not because the opposing team is better than yours, but because of one of the following imbalances:

The dreaded 8v15 game: One of the things I dread most is when my AB starts with 8 or so Horde and 15 Alliance in the game. I ride into LM or BS knowing that I'm just going to get zerged down by the opposing team's numbers, regardless of how skilled or geared their players are. Eventually, when my team finally gets 15 people (usually about 5-10 minutes into the game), we're sitting at farm fighting off the entire opposing Alliance team and have no shot of winning short of a 5 cap. This situation is caused by people not taking or canceling their AB queues for the entire two minute duration, thus taking up player spots in the game without actually being in the BG. Since it's extremely far-fetched to think the general player base can be taught to cancel their queues, I think it's time for Blizzard to step in with a solution to this issue.

AFK reporting is a joke: All AFK reporting does is slow down an AFK'ers honor/hour gain. As long as AFK'ers still have the incentive of getting honor for doing absolutely nothing, they'll continue doing it. Meanwhile, trying to win a game with several AFK'ers on your team is an uphill climb to say the least. The AV queue problems that are occurring in several battlegroups are largely caused by the AFK slippery slope - your faction thinks it loses more games than it wins, so people become apathetic and start AFKing. This causes your faction to lose even more games because fewer people are participating, which causes more people to become apathetic and AFK through it. Eventually, your faction never wins another game again and stops queuing. The AFK reporting system does nothing to prevent this from happening, and thus it should be considered a failure.

Premades steamrolling PuGs: This has been discussed in detail already, so I won't elaborate.

The sad part is almost every BG instance these days is affected by one of these imbalances, which severely cuts at the integrity of battleground competition. These problems unnecessarily add to the cumulative frustration I have toward battlegrounds to the point where often I can't enjoy playing battlegrounds for any other reason than to watch my estimated honor number go up. Because of this, I feel that Blizzard has done a poor job of battleground implementation.

On a side note, have any hordes noticed an increasing amount of people who go afk in a smaller bg? (WSG, AB, EotS)

It is already hard to finish a WSG match with 1 healer only, and the opposition has 3. Adding salt on the injury, now we have to play with man power disadvantage.

I think blizzard should issue far more strict actions against those players who go afk in a small bg.

I skimmed alot. Just to add my 2 cents to a few points:

I agree BG's shouldnt have PUG's playing Premade. This is something that should have been addressed a long long time ago, but it almost feels like they intended for players to be able to 'pharm' other lesser organized players for easier faster honor.

I also agree there should be way more serious actions taken again afk'ers but again this is something i'm not sure Blizzard thinks is a big deal or they would. Deterrance would be the ideal means of preventing AFK'ing, too bad Blizzard doesnt care enough about the issue to deter it. IMO its not as difficult an issue to address as Blizzard tends to act by these really poor work arounds to having to be hardline about it.

I dont think there needs to be a BG starter set or anything along those lines. There is a gap between HWL set to S1, but S1 isnt that hard to achieve through honor at all. You just cant expect to get it all in 1 night. S2, S3 vs S1 isnt so huge IMO that your team cant overcome a S3 team with more skill.

My biggest problem overall with BG's in WoW is Blizzard tends to see them as an afterthought, almost like they made them and now they dont care too much anymore because they arent Arena. My beef with this attitude of Blizzard is there are more people participating in BG's every night far more than Arena's. Its probably the most used PvP venue and given the least amount of attention.

It goes both ways. Just look at the bottom of the kills list every time you win a game, and check how many Alliance have zero damage dealt, zero healing done, and full bonus honor. You'll realize that your team may have won the game based on numbers advantage rather than teamwork or skill, which bothers me quite a bit.