If Blizzard wanted to try something new they'd make honor a goal based system. [Kick Ass PvP Epic Item] under the current system costs 12,000 honor and some tokens. Under the goal system the item costs "5x 5-cap wins of AB, 5x successful flag captures in WSG"
I really like this idea quite a bit. A while back myself and a friend were theorizing about how Blizz could make bgs more friendly for people just starting out at 70. As it has been noted in this thread, the main issue is gear discrepancy. One idea I've heard tossed around is giving the level 70 HWL/GM gear to new pvpers when they reach 70. Of course this was met with cries of "welfare epics". So we thought, why not have an objective based quest line at 70 similar to what Malan proposes, that would require completion of several different BG objectives and the end result would give you a set of gear that will at least let newcomers be somewhat competitive in pvp. Personally some of my favorite quests when leveling are the BG objective quests, and it would be great to see something like that again. Perhaps these quests could work parallel to dalies too, for gaining more honor? Instead of having to win a particular bg you could just be required to complete one of these objectives. Maybe that would offer pugs some hope of getting more honor against premades until some solution is found to that issue.
On a side note. With the current honor system, I've noticed that I'm always having a lot more marks from each bg than I require for gear. It would be nice to see some kind of honor to mark conversion, even if it was 1 to 1, since they're limited to 100. As a druid collecting several different sets of pvp gear it's rather disheartening to watch dozens of marks rot in my mail bin.
On a side note. With the current honor system, I've noticed that I'm always having a lot more marks from each bg than I require for gear. It would be nice to see some kind of honor to mark conversion, even if it was 1 to 1, since they're limited to 100. As a druid collecting several different sets of pvp gear it's rather disheartening to watch dozens of marks rot in my mail bin.
i would like to be able to turn em in 10 at a time because i win 90% of my games it would be a great way to get honor but also i would love for bliz to up the price on the pvp items the speed at witch you acquire gear is crazy fast and makes it feel ill accomplished i for one like to feel like i earned my gear not that it was thrown at me
For one free action potions should make you drop the flag like the engineering boots now do. Mabye they'll have the flag restrict your movement speed to 100%?
* When both flags are held, the flag carriers will receive 50% increased damage done to them after approximately 10 minutes and 100% increased damage after approximately 15 minutes.
* Flag carriers can now be tracked 45 seconds after picking up the flag.
The changes to wsg gulch in 2.4 are definitely in the right direction although I'm not sure if it will be enough because 100% more damage might not break a turtle with good healers and defending dps. Here are my ideas for additional steps to fix the bg system:
1. A New Separate Queqe System
This new queqe will only be for wsg and ab. In order to use this queqe, one has to be either in a full 5-man group or in a full 15-man raid (premade). The queqe system will naturally favor placing premade vs premade and 5-man group teams vs 5-man group teams. Forming a 5-man team for bgs shouldn't be too hard. A RL friend, 2 guildies, a person from trade channel, and ofc yourself and you're in.
2. A New BG Daily
A new bg daily will be made for the new queqe. The daily will award 2,000 honor for winning 2 bgs in a row. For the lore, the story line for the new daily will be along the lines of wsg/ab being strategically important for the alliance/horde but troops are wearing of the constant tug-of-war. More experienced enforcements are wanted to turn the tide of the battle.
3. Leveling the Playing Field More
There will be a zone wide debuff in the above mentioned bgs called Weariness. Weariness caps resilience at 150/200 health at 12k and attack power/spell damage at 1800/unsure.
4. Additional Changes to WSG
I personally would prefer faster paced wsg matches than what blizzard seems to have planned in 2.4 I think the 50% damage increase on the flag carrier should be applied 5 mins after flag capture, the 100% increase 8 mins after capture, a 100% plus 50% healing debuff 10 mins after capture, and a 150% plus 50% healing debuff 15 mins after capture. Any team who can keep a flag carrier taking 150% more damage plus 50% less healing with the zone wide Weariness debuff alive definitely deserves to win imo. The strong debuff should definitely break turtling for the majority of wsg matches. The change in pace might be considered dramatic by some but I think it will make wsg feel more arena-like.
These are all the ideas I have atm. I know the above ideas might destroy the regular bg queqe. The new queqe system will probably draw the majority of the non-afkers into it leaving the regular bgs to rot with afkers and pugs getting steamrolled by premades. However, the current bg system is already so bad imo that it's a risk worth taking.
Note that the current system does match premade v. premade, but what usually happens is one of the premades will get queued out to another BG, meaning that the remaining premade is left facing PUGs.
Humorously, the EotS premade I was running last night saw the same Andorhal premade queue out of EotS, then queue back in, and then queue back out again, all in the course of the minutes before the game started...
Also, as anecdotal evidence, out of the 40 or so EotS games I played Sunday and Monday with my premade, we fought an enemy premade (who stayed), exactly once. We were matched with premades about 30 times or so, but all except that one left.
Finally, regarding the WSG changes, I hope that they're not circumventable by just trading the flag to another person...
Some great thoughts in here, and I'll just cut to the chase:
WSG:
Problem: Never ending WSG's
Suggestion: Make the game point based, much like EOTS / AB. To pull numbers out of a hat: 150 points. Flag cap is worth 40 points, flag return is worth 10. Each Killing Blow is worth 1 point.
This reults in a few things. A definite end to the game, much like a lack of reinforcements in AV. This will give incentive to defend the flag, as a pure defense tactic, while slow, can still end the game. A pure zerg strat will as well. I've seen more than one case of a pre-form farming GY for HK's while the FC sits safely in the back at 2:0 games - this also will result in a game end.
As we enter the era of even returns and instant honor, this change almost feels necesary.
Problem: Flag Kiting
Suggestion: The currently suggested debuff to the flag carrier is applied to all friendly targets within either 45y or an escalating range with no range cap at specific intervals (ie: 5 mins, 5y, 6 mins, 10y, and so on)
Because, honestly, 100% to the FC, is a lot of damage, but something that a good premade could probably still overcome.
AB:
Problem: Unwinnable games
Suggestion: Mercy rule - If the score is 250 : 1250 end the game early for full honor/rep rewards for victor.
This results in players at least sticking it out a little longer in order to try to rally "one more time" knowing that even if it's unwinnable, the game will be over soon.
AV:
Problem: No incentive to defend/capture nodes (towers, GY)
Suggestion: a localized, but minimal, honor pulse at 30s intervals to players within 8y of the flag during defense of a node while it's being captured. Further, a localized, but minimal, honor reward for reclaiming a neutral node. Suggested increments of 20 honor (an HK) divided by number of players receiving the boost.
This will result in an increased pressure to protect and capture towers and graveyards. This will also reward the players who are actively pursuing the intent of the BG, and not just AFK'ing.
Honor System overall:
Problem: the Gear Check when breaking into PVP.
Suggestion: (recapping another poster's thoughts) BG based, team achieved, quests with pvp-centric BLUE gear rewards. Gear should be equivalent to world PVP gear, ie: Halaa's belt/legs - about iLevel 100. These quests should be battleground agnostic - as different battlegroups have different experiences in bg's. Quests should be things like "deal 15,000 damage, or heal 20,000 damage in one bg" or "successfully capture a flag/node 5 times" and so on. Quest should also reward daily quest level honor.
Alternatively: Moderately priced, badge of honor, resilience gear. 60 badges for the current resilience cloak is a good price. However, a lower priced (ilevel 100-120) set of gear aimed at getting players to 100-150 resilience from badge would give the PvE player a chance to try PvP and not be gimped.
BG's in general:
Problem: Honor grinding for gear vs. PVP for enjoyment
Suggestion: Build it and they will come. Introduce a BG that appeals to the players who do not need gear upgrades anymore, but are pvp'ing for the sake of pvp. AV, as it was first built, for example. My experience ist hat PVPers don't stop PVPing just cause they got their honor gear and are now "done" they're just sick of the bg's. Introduce a new BG with objectives and epic nature at the same rate new instances are introduced. Their honor/hour will not be tuned as well as the current 4.
Side note: I *think* we'll see something like this when Blizzard introduces a BG to answer Warhammer's PVP system - things like siege engines.
Assessment: There are, at least, two types of pvp'ers. Those who are pvping for gear, and those who are pvp'ing for enjoyment. There's probably a lot of people in BOTH camps, but there are definitely people after two different things in bg's.
Random suggestion:
Introduce a honor-purchased title system outside of the Grand Marshall / High Warlord set of titles, but will show up in the HK: when someone is killed. New players cannot ever get beyond Grunt/Scout and allowing them a doorway into a heirarchy system would provide another avenue to achieve. Silly things like turning in 100 of each BG to buy one rank higher, or 100,000 honor per rank.
I really like the idea of the poster above me to have a BG that is not centered on getting people honor. I personally loved the old AV, and would play it if they reintroduced it. I miss the long games where I felt like I was really accomplishing something.
Perhaps the non-honor tuned BG can have some non progression based rep rewards, such as dyes for armor, tassels for weapons etc.. Perhaps the rewards could be tuned to that battleground specifically - access to siege weapons could be rep based for instance.
Long story short, i would love to have a BG that gave zero honor besides kills - and was really epic (potential for 8-10 hour matches), as we have lost any possibility of an epic fight with the recent changes to AV (reinforcements).
I would like to see hard evidence of such matching. Did Blizzard ever officially confirm it? Because many times I have zoned into a fresh game only to have a premade zone in after me on the other side. Nobody queued out before I entered. Given the size of my BG I find it highly unlikely that there are absolutely no solo queuers to match me up against.
Originally Posted by alcaras
Note that the current system does match premade v. premade, but what usually happens is one of the premades will get queued out to another BG, meaning that the remaining premade is left facing PUGs.
Humorously, the EotS premade I was running last night saw the same Andorhal premade queue out of EotS, then queue back in, and then queue back out again, all in the course of the minutes before the game started...
Also, as anecdotal evidence, out of the 40 or so EotS games I played Sunday and Monday with my premade, we fought an enemy premade (who stayed), exactly once. We were matched with premades about 30 times or so, but all except that one left.
Finally, regarding the WSG changes, I hope that they're not circumventable by just trading the flag to another person...
I would like to see hard evidence of such matching. Did Blizzard ever officially confirm it? Because many times I have zoned into a fresh game only to have a premade zone in after me on the other side. Nobody queued out before I entered. Given the size of my BG I find it highly unlikely that there are absolutely no solo queuers to match me up against.
CM's have described it as a loose system that attempts to first match up players based on group composition and overall quality of gear, but that it quickly widens its search parameters if no "perfect" matches are available. The thinking being that it's better to solo-queue with a 4 minute wait and face a premade than to solo-queue for 40 minutes to wait for another pug that closely matches your own in group composition and gear quality.
I really like this idea quite a bit. A while back myself and a friend were theorizing about how Blizz could make bgs more friendly for people just starting out at 70. As it has been noted in this thread, the main issue is gear discrepancy. One idea I've heard tossed around is giving the level 70 HWL/GM gear to new pvpers when they reach 70. Of course this was met with cries of "welfare epics". So we thought, why not have an objective based quest line at 70 similar to what Malan proposes, that would require completion of several different BG objectives and the end result would give you a set of gear that will at least let newcomers be somewhat competitive in pvp. Personally some of my favorite quests when leveling are the BG objective quests, and it would be great to see something like that again. Perhaps these quests could work parallel to dalies too, for gaining more honor? Instead of having to win a particular bg you could just be required to complete one of these objectives. Maybe that would offer pugs some hope of getting more honor against premades until some solution is found to that issue.
Having started BGs at 70 and still quite new, I understand the sentiment to make them more friendly to new people. For that reason alone, Alterac Valley is actually the most friendly. True, it gives most honor, but the other battlegrounds are almost torture. Torture because it's equally matched: you see, I'm not very good, but I'm not terrible either. Even on a winning team in Warsong Gulch, for instance, it's really a case of 'lets get this over with'.
With AV, you can actually contribute quite significantly when you are undergeared. Several undergeared and less-skilled players can take down those one or two experienced and well geared players at a tower, flag or what not. Additionally, AV has some quite fun quests. The rewards are not necessarily significant, but prompted me to stick with it and began to enjoy AV.
But why is AV still so interesting, for someone like me, who really rides the middle of the pack skill/gear wise? In addition to the above, the map is not even. Each side requires a different strategy to achieve objectives. There tends to be complaints that it's 'unfair' (won't get into that, here), but truly it makes for an interesting game.
So, AV does not necessarily need a 'gear ramp up', because of the size and number of players. But to be competitive in WSG you certainly need the gear to contribute effectively. Even then, if you don't have top skills, you are going to loose rather nastily (begs the question, is a show of skill equal to fun?). I suppose WSG is a show of gear/skill and rather minimal strategy, whereas AV is the opposite.
Adding 'quests' may work, but with something like WSG an undergeared player would have no hope of capturing the flag, unless luck was on their side. Additionally, some classes are far better suited to such tasks. I agree in principle, but it needs a lot of thought for the objectives. If the rewards are significant enough, you then start downplaying the incentive to actually continue to compete in battlegrounds.
I wish that they would bring back the old AV, but with the current reinforcements system.
The epic battles of the old AV were amazing, they just needed some forced end if you never forced a breakthrough. I would love to have 1 hour AV games, instead of the 10 minute current ones or the 8-hour games of the old system.
New variants on battlegrounds would be nice, but I think the main problem is the simple fact that the way to maximize reward is not through win/loss ratio, or even number of wins, but through number of games player per hour, win or lose. The increased honor reward from daily quests sounds like a great idea.
I wish that they would bring back the old AV, but with the current reinforcements system.
The epic battles of the old AV were amazing, they just needed some forced end if you never forced a breakthrough. I would love to have 1 hour AV games, instead of the 10 minute current ones or the 8-hour games of the old system.
New variants on battlegrounds would be nice, but I think the main problem is the simple fact that the way to maximize reward is not through win/loss ratio, or even number of wins, but through number of games player per hour, win or lose. The increased honor reward from daily quests sounds like a great idea.
I'm sorry to ask, but which old AV are you referring to? The one with Ice-Lord and the Alliance Tree (who's name escapes my mind at the moment) and "Mid-ground" fighting?
WSG:
Problem: Never ending WSG's
Suggestion: Make the game point based, much like EOTS / AB. To pull numbers out of a hat: 150 points. Flag cap is worth 40 points, flag return is worth 10. Each Killing Blow is worth 1 point.
This reults in a few things. A definite end to the game, much like a lack of reinforcements in AV. This will give incentive to defend the flag, as a pure defense tactic, while slow, can still end the game. A pure zerg strat will as well. I've seen more than one case of a pre-form farming GY for HK's while the FC sits safely in the back at 2:0 games - this also will result in a game end.
As we enter the era of even returns and instant honor, this change almost feels necesary.
FYI - Start saving your WSG tokens. Reports from the PTR suggest WSG is now an honor-farming festival. Nobody is going for the flags, its just a FFA in the middle of the field.
If this is true, then WSG will be the best place to farm honor. 10 players, 50 kill limit, 20.9 honor/kill = 10,450 honor cap from 1 WSG. 10 players divided equally (talking averages here) is 1045 honor per WSG.
It sounds fun to me. It's PvP combat that I find fun - not running from one end of AV to the other, not clicking a flag or node, not standing around for 2-10 minutes "protecting" something that doesn't get attacked, and not downing tank & spank PVE mobs. One thing I like about arenas is that the goal is to kill the other guy - not to click a flag next to a stable and hope you don't get zerged.
If WSG becomes a de facto 10v10 deathmatch, I can't say that I'll mind. Interacting with an enemy player is infinitely more complex and fun than interacting with a flag post.
FYI - Start saving your WSG tokens. Reports from the PTR suggest WSG is now an honor-farming festival. Nobody is going for the flags, its just a FFA in the middle of the field.
If this is true, then WSG will be the best place to farm honor. 10 players, 50 kill limit, 20.9 honor/kill = 10,450 honor cap from 1 WSG. 10 players divided equally (talking averages here) is 1045 honor per WSG.
The question remains, is this fun or farming?
WSG on PTR has always been a FFA in the middle of the field with nobody going for the flag - people are trying out new specs and such. Plus often the queue times are very lopsided, with one side having to wait a very long time to even get a game, so they aren't going to be actively trying to end the game when the goal is to try out new specs. I wouldn't draw any conclusions about WSG kill-farming tendencies from what is going on on the PTR.
It sounds fun to me. It's PvP combat that I find fun - not running from one end of AV to the other, not clicking a flag or node, not standing around for 2-10 minutes "protecting" something that doesn't get attacked, and not downing tank & spank PVE mobs. One thing I like about arenas is that the goal is to kill the other guy - not to click a flag next to a stable and hope you don't get zerged.
If WSG becomes a de facto 10v10 deathmatch, I can't say that I'll mind. Interacting with an enemy player is infinitely more complex and fun than interacting with a flag post.
It depends on the class you play. Frag fests are nice for DPS classes. But not so for healers imho. If WSG turns into a frag fest I certainly will not play my healer in PvP anymore. If the game focuses on killing other people only and no more objectives - why play a supporter/healer at all? Don't you think that WoW will turn into just another UT?
I, for one, like team play and team tactics with objectives. Therefore I enjoy Enemy Territory:Quake Wars far more than UT. But yeah, ever player has a different concept of what is fun :-)
With AV, you can actually contribute quite significantly when you are undergeared. Several undergeared and less-skilled players can take down those one or two experienced and well geared players at a tower, flag or what not. Additionally, AV has some quite fun quests. The rewards are not necessarily significant, but prompted me to stick with it and began to enjoy AV.
You can make a difference in any BG when played properly. WSG in about 99 out of 100 games as PUG comes out to a 2v2 or 3v3. 7 players farming eachother in the midfield while flag carriers run past them without a care in the world. Just make sure you with a mate are the 2 players that are gonna make the difference that game, either by carrying flags or returning them. In EOTS 2 people can make a difference aswell, usually it comes down to flag farm with both teams have 2 bases. Just attack 1 base a couple of times, if they have 1 or 2 defenders kill them and take the tower. People from midfield come to take it back and you probably get 1 or 2 flags. Then switch to the other side and attack there other tower. AV is pretty much the same but I dont feel my influence can be that big there. Sometimes I have a perfect run going solo to stormpike GY and capping it after aoe-ing guards. Then I invis and take Dun baldar south tower by killing 1 guard. I either finish up the guards or take the dun baldar GY aswell. We still ended up losing because nobody was able to keep stoneheart or icewing. Next patch is gonna be great for that though, sign with 4/5 good players and you can make every difference even in AV.
Was on the PTR last night during maintenance sure there was some spec testing going on but flags were ran resulting in two horde victories in under 20 minutes/game.
It depends on the class you play. Frag fests are nice for DPS classes. But not so for healers imho. If WSG turns into a frag fest I certainly will not play my healer in PvP anymore. If the game focuses on killing other people only and no more objectives - why play a supporter/healer at all? Don't you think that WoW will turn into just another UT?
I, for one, like team play and team tactics with objectives. Therefore I enjoy Enemy Territory:Quake Wars far more than UT. But yeah, ever player has a different concept of what is fun :-)
Can't say I agree with you, I personally enjoy zerg fests thoroughly on my disc priest, usually because I bring a friend along. There is nothing like tearing through the opponents ranks with a season 3 geared warrior, or perhaps crosshealing with a 400+ resilience disc priest, causing endless annoyance to the opponent.
I do see where your coming though, not everyone is into the same gameplay. But then again, WoW has lacked a place to do this kind of socially acceptable zerging ever since AV got changed.
The one thing that I've found in the all new AV, is that games which degenerate into a resource war tend to be immeasurably more fun than those where one side manages to out-zerg the other to the cap, kill and finish. Suddenly the dull robot grind becomes something quite different and those that were content to mindlessly pootle around the FoS are all suddenly trying to recap towers, fight for graveyards, still take down players wherever possible, even ninja mines and generally mix things up.
The downside is obviously that it lengthens the game by some ten minutes and this jars with the time v reward debate. Yet aside from that, I just feel that a resource war from the get go, with no insta-win would improve the BG no end. How about if Vann and Drek being killed just lopped off a fat chunk of resources? Ok, so you've killed one and now you've an advantage, but game's still not over. The decider might be a battle over the last standing tower or hell, a huge scrap in the FoS while trying to whittle down the last forty needed kills. Anything to provide some variation in the game's deciding factor. But Bgs need to encourage people to get involved, maybe do things on the map that they might not normally do.
Also, however innefectual some of the old gimicks were; Lok, Druids, Air Strikes and Wolfriders were FUN and AV suffers massively for their loss. Bring them back, but with a difference. Screw the gathering of crap to use them. Just make them available right from the get go as one use tactical toys. The gate opens and three people can go summon Lok (who immediately goes on a rampage instead of faffing around for twenty minutes) right off the
bat? Would be awesome!
Say you take a bunker, what would be more fun, Mulverick asking you to follow him back to base or just saying "I'll call you in a strike, where would you like me to bomb the crap out of?". Maybe having wolf riders or elementals defeated loses you resources, maybe them killing enemy players gains you some - it could be a trade off. Either way it would just be much more fun.
Whatever, but kill the sodding base to base zerg or switch the damn server off as seeing something as conceptually fantastic as AV turn into what it is today is a crying shame.
Just wanted to post a comment from the official forums. A player explains why rushing and losing is better than playing and trying to win AV:
1. In a perfect world everyone bypasses each other and race ftw. This means that even if you should happen to lose you still get honor for all bunkers. This will take less than 10 mins, and now you can do the math: your 500 for 40 mins equals 125 honor per 10 min game. You get AT LEAST TWICE that honor.
and
1. PvP? AV is all about gaining honor. After your 5:th char to get exalted in there it's not fun anymore, just evil that needs to be done. And most honor gained per H is if both teams ignore each other. Have always been like this, will always be like this.
I wonder why those people play PvP then? Only to get their gear? But what for?
I wonder why those people play PvP then? Only to get their gear? But what for?
Arena.
Personally, I find it sickening that the thirst for good Arena performance via decent gear is making people lose sight of actually playing BGs according to their objectives.
It's too much metagaming for my taste to simply dissect AV down to a mechanical number such as "honor per hour". In fact, I consider it the complete opposite of honor.
02/08/08, 12:26 PM
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